ATD 11 FINAL: Inglewood Jacks (1) vs. Boston Bruins (1)

arrbez

bad chi
Jun 2, 2004
13,352
261
Toronto
Ok guys, let's try to git 'er done. I'm not sure who has home ice in this one, can anybody clarify?


Inglewood Jacks

GM: arrbez
Coach: Harry Sinden

Cy Denneny - Joe Malone - Hooley Smith (A)
Dany Heatley - Denis Savard - Sergei Makarov
Nick Metz - Ken Mosdell - Joe Klukay
Al Secord - Bernie Nicholls - Bill Guerin

Mel Bridgman - Shane Doan


Slava Fetisov (C) - Eric Desjardins
Chris Chelios (A) - Jimmy Watson
Leo Reise jr - Glen Harmon

Pat Egan

Harry Lumley
Chuck Rayner



VS.


Boston Bruins

GM: Evil Speaker and Sturminator
Coach: Al Arbour

Alex Delvecchio - Frank Nighbor - Bill Cook (C)
John LeClair - Peter Stastny (A) - Vladimir Martinec
J.P. Parise - Don McKenney - Harry Hyland
Ed Sandford - Dick Irvin Sr. - Jim Pappin

Reggie Fleming - Charlie Burns

Doug Harvey - Hap Day (A)
Jim Neilson - Jan Suchý
Graham Drinkwater - Red Dutton

Gilles Marotte

Grant Fuhr
Dave Kerr

 

Sturminator

Love is a duel
Feb 27, 2002
9,894
1,070
West Egg, New York
This is an excellent matchup between a couple of teams that would surely produce some attractive hockey if they ever met in real life. It is a somewhat "imbalanced" matchup, meaning that each team enjoys a few obvious advantages, and there are relatively few areas of approximate equality. I guess we'll talk about the imbalances, then:

Inglewood's Advantages:

- #3 defenseman: There's not really much to say about Chelios vs. Suchy, other than that it is an obvious win for Inglewood. Jan Suchy is quite possibly a top-50 all-time defenseman and a high-end #3, himself, but Chelios is borderline top-10 and really doesn't belong on a 2nd pairing.

- 2nd line RW: Again, Boston's player at that position (in this case Vlad Martinec) is strong for his role, but because arrbez has chosen not to ice his A team on the top unit, Sergei Makarov on a 2nd line creates a matchup imbalance.

- 3rd line RW: Nick Metz and J.P. Parise are similar players, but Metz is simply the better of the two.

Boston's Advantages:

- top defensive pairing: As good as Slava Fetisov was, Doug Harvey is another level, entirely, and Hap Day is rather easily better than Desjardins. I don't think this requires much explanation.

- #4 defenseman: Jimmy Watson was a solid, steady, defensive-defenseman, but a Jim Neilson level player he was not. Watson was never really a "true #1 defenseman", meaning that he may have briefly been the best blueliner in Philadelphia, but he was never a top blueliner in the NHL, which Neilson absolutely was during his prime. All-star and Norris voting as well as defenseman scoring finishes bear this out - not to mention the large difference in physicality. Although Watson was a tough, aggressive player, he wasn't a mammoth like The Chief.

- #5 defenseman: I think Dutton over Reise Jr. should be fairly uncontroversial by now. Reise has those two 2nd team all star nods in a very soft era for defensemen, but they don't really compare well to Dutton's two top-5 Hart finishes, his physical dominance or his place in the hall of fame.

- 1st line: the entire unit. Cook vs. Smith is a no-brainer, but Boston holds smaller edges at both center and left wing, as well. Comparing only offensive ability, the Denneny - Malone tandem is somewhat better than Delvecchio - Nighbor, but Boston's forward pair destroys Inglewood's in other aspects of the game - by a considerably wider margin than the offensive difference. Malone vs. Nighbor should be fairly clear; head-to-head, Nighbor is simply the better player. I consider Joe Malone still somewhat underrated in the ATD and don't think he's as far behind the level of the best of his era (Lalonde, Nighbor and Taylor) as his draft position would indicate, but he is definitely a notch below Frank Nighbor. Denneny's scoring record is marginally better than Delvecchio's (which is also excellent), but Delvecchio destroys his counterpart in terms of skating and 2-way play, both areas where Delvecchio is quite strong and Denneny quite weak. With Inglewood deployed as they are, Boston is better at every single position on the 1st units.

- 2nd line RW: This should be uncontroversial. Leclair is better in all facets of the game - from a not enormous goal-scoring advantage, to a substantial defensive advantage and a fairly large physicality advantage. In terms of pure scoring, Heatley is not so far behind Leclair, but he brings a lot less to the ice outside of scoring.

- 2nd line center: Stastny vs. Savard should again be unanimous. As much respect as I have for Denis Savard, he is no Peter Stastny. Again, the difference here is not huge when you only compare the scoring, but Savard was more or less an empty socket outside of his scoring abilities, while Peter Stastny brought a lot more to the ice, including size and a willingness to play chippy and fight for the puck which Inglewood is sorely lacking on the 2nd line. Stastny, although no great defensive player, himself, was also a dependable two way player, and easily better in that facet of the game than Savard, who was a floater. The teams are ultimately close on the 2nd lines from a talent perspective, but Inglewood's 2nd line has serious defensive and puckwinning problems. Dany Heatley is being asked to do too much as Inglewood's 2nd line "physical presence" next to a couple of cupcakes like Savard and Makarov. I don't see what the Jacks' 2nd line will do to break up either of Boston's top units when they get set up on the cycle in the offensive zone, or to establish a cycle of their own (though the McKenney line is less physically robust).

- #3 center: Although I respect Ken Mosdell's career and understand that he could have quite possibly been a Don McKenney level player if given the chance outside of Montreal, the simple fact is that he was only on McKenney's level for two seasons - and was never even so much as a top-20 scorer outside of his brief peak.

- goal: not much sense in beating this point into the ground. Grant Fuhr is the better goalie in this matchup.

- coaching: again, an obvious win for Boston. Arbour is a top-3 all-time NHL coach (I think there is some disagreement about where he and Blake should go after Bowman, but they're both clearly better than the next tier), and honestly I've never thought that much of Harry Sinden, though arrbez seems to go with him a lot.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In the end, Inglewood's advantages are few, but fairly profound. If the Jacks win the series, that victory will likely be spearheaded by the 2nd unit, where Chris Chelios and Sergei Makarov represent dominant forces at their positions, although the unit as a whole has potentially serious puckwinning issues.

Boston only enjoys one area of imbalance on the level of Chelios/Makarov vs. their counterparts - that being Bill Cook vs. Hooley Smith - but the Bruins enjoy widespread superiority in many areas of the matchup. Whether or not this is enough to overcome Inglewood's areas of strength is up to the voters to decide.
 

arrbez

bad chi
Jun 2, 2004
13,352
261
Toronto
- 1st line: the entire unit. Cook vs. Smith is a no-brainer, but Boston holds smaller edges at both center and left wing, as well. Comparing only offensive ability, the Denneny - Malone tandem is somewhat better than Delvecchio - Nighbor, but Boston's forward pair destroys Inglewood's in other aspects of the game - by a considerably wider margin than the offensive difference. Malone vs. Nighbor should be fairly clear; head-to-head, Nighbor is simply the better player. I consider Joe Malone still somewhat underrated in the ATD and don't think he's as far behind the level of the best of his era (Lalonde, Nighbor and Taylor) as his draft position would indicate, but he is definitely a notch below Frank Nighbor. Denneny's scoring record is marginally better than Delvecchio's (which is also excellent), but Delvecchio destroys his counterpart in terms of skating and 2-way play, both areas where Delvecchio is quite strong and Denneny quite weak. With Inglewood deployed as they are, Boston is better at every single position on the 1st units.

I think you're being a little inconsistent with your offensive ratings of my players. You claim Denneny was a marginally better offensive player than Delvecchio, and I assume you would rate Nighbor as a better offensive player to Delvecchio. And yet, Denneny outscored Nighbor by a significant amount in their careers (and they played most of it together on the same line). His scoring record stacks up very well against that of Bill Cook, and is clearly above both Nighbor and Delvecchio. With the possible exception of Cyclone Taylor, Joe Malone was the best offensive player in the world over a 10 year span (he outscored Lalonde badly over this stretch, both in their primes). I fully believe that he's the best offensive player in this series. I'll give you the defensive edge for these lines, and I'll claim the physical advantage with Hooley Smith and Cy Denneny (who is cited as playing bodyguard to Nighbor for much of their careers).


Dany Heatley is being asked to do too much as Inglewood's 2nd line "physical presence" next to a couple of cupcakes like Savard and Makarov. I don't see what the Jacks' 2nd line will do to break up either of Boston's top units when they get set up on the cycle in the offensive zone, or to establish a cycle of their own (though the McKenney line is less physically robust).

Well...both lines are nearly identical in terms of physical play, so...?

Denis Savard wasn't a cupcake. He had 14 fighting majors in his career, he wasn't easily intimidated. The biggest cupcake in this series is Vladimir Martinec. If Heatley can't be relied on carry the load physically, then certainly John Leclair can't either. Leclair and Heatley are nearly mirror images of each other. At 6'3 220, both players are more big than physical. neither gets knocked around, but neither is dishing out big hits or hounding the opposition either. Heatley does his damage a little further from the net than Leclair did, but very similar players in terms of what they bring to the table.

#3 center: Although I respect Ken Mosdell's career and understand that he could have quite possibly been a Don McKenney level player if given the chance outside of Montreal, the simple fact is that he was only on McKenney's level for two seasons - and was never even so much as a top-20 scorer outside of his brief peak.

Well you said it yourself, when Mosdell was put in an offensive role, he was one of the best two-way players in hockey. But we're comparing apples to oranges here. My third line is about defense, and in that function it's clearly the best defensive line in this series.
 
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Sturminator

Love is a duel
Feb 27, 2002
9,894
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West Egg, New York
I think you're being a little inconsistent with your offensive ratings of my players. You claim Denneny was a marginally better offensive player than Delvecchio, and I assume you would rate Nighbor as a better offensive player to Delvecchio.

Actually, I"m not so sure about that. Alex Delvecchio is a highly underrated offensive player. I've never compared his scoring record to Nighbor's directly as thez are both on my team.

And yet, Denneny outscored Nighbor by a significant amount in their careers (and they played most of it together on the same line).

Why do people insist on making arguments like this? Cy Denneny's time in Ottawa encompasses only the last 2-3 seasons of Frank Nighbor's scoring prime, but all of his post-prime years. It's very much like saying "Brendan Shanahan scored more than Steve Yzerman during their time together in Detroit", which, although true, it is still a massive distortion of the players' relative offensive abilities. Clearly, you're looking uncritically at only NHL stats in making this comparison.

His scoring record stacks up very well against that of Bill Cook, and is clearly above both Nighbor and Delvecchio.

When the split league effect is factored in, no, Denneny's scoring record does not compare well to Cook's, at all, and that is before we get into counting Cook's western league credentials, which include another couple of scoring titles, the last of which saw Cook practically lap the league. This is not an argument you should be making, arrbez.

Denis Savard wasn't a cupcake. He had 14 fighting majors in his career, he wasn't easily intimidated.

Are you kidding me?! What kind of an argument is this? I was talking about puckwinning problems on your second line, and you cite fighting majors?! From a guy like Savard?! Denis Savard and Sergei Makarov are the polar opposite of diggers. They are not guys who go to the boards and come out with the puck; they are guys who wait for their linemates to do it for them. How about that? If they want to drop the gloves...ok.

If Heatley can't be relied on carry the load physically, then certainly John Leclair can't either. Leclair and Heatley are nearly mirror images of each other. At 6'3 220, both players are more big than physical. neither gets knocked around, but neither is dishing out big hits or hounding the opposition either. Heatley does his damage a little further from the net than Leclair did, but very similar players in terms of what they bring to the table.

What is this? Are you honestly comparing Dany Heatley's physical presence to John Leclair's? Because they are the same size? Again, the problem on Inglewood's second line is puckwinning. Dany Heatley is hardly comparable to John Leclair in that area, and yet he's thrown into the role of primary puckwinner for the line because his linemates have no business going to the boards.

My third line is about defense, and in that function it's clearly the best defensive line in this series.

I'd take the Nighbor line over your 3rd line defensively, but that's not really a fair comparison.
 

pitseleh

Registered User
Jul 30, 2005
19,164
2,613
Vancouver
Some thoughts:

- Assuming that Inglewood goes for that matchup, can a purely defensive line by ATD standards keep Boston's top line at bay with their great two-way play? Checking lines can be effective against scoring lines that don't play defense but usually come out in the red when matched up against quality two-way players. But it still may be the best matchup that they have.

- Delvecchio and Nighbor are a sizeable upgrade defensively on Denneny and Malone, respectively, but as far as I know, so is Smith over Cook.

- Inglewood may have 'puckwinning' issues on the second line but with Chelios on the second unit they also have the best (by far) player at getting the play going in the right direction. Makarov may not be the guy you'd want digging for pucks but that doesn't mean that he's not capable of doing it. And he's a good first line goal scorer so getting second unit matchups could be huge for him.

- That said, Desjardins getting matchups against Delvecchio-Nighbor-Cook isn't pretty.

- Mosdell may not have put up the offensive peak that McKenny did because he was buried on the depth chart for much of his career, but McKenny won't be getting first unit PP time any more either, so I think the matchup is pretty even when you factor in defensive play.
 

arrbez

bad chi
Jun 2, 2004
13,352
261
Toronto
woot woot, good series

And now you have to play Leaflander at tiddlywinks for the cup. Good luck my friend, you'll need it.
 

Sturminator

Love is a duel
Feb 27, 2002
9,894
1,070
West Egg, New York
My...that was over fast. Well, good series, arrbez. Winning ATD#11 feels a bit like winning the special olympics, but I guess that's just how it goes sometimes. You put together an excellent team (as did Spit...sorry I didn't have much to say after our series, Spit) and I'm sure you'll be back.

This may be my swan song as an active GM. I still find the ATD interesting, but I think I'd really prefer not to be the guy making picks from this point forward. Well, that and I just started a new job that is sort of a time eater. I'll still be around, but...well, we'll see. Thanks to my co-GM, Evil Speaker. Speaker hasn't had a lot of time for the ATD this time around, but his help was invaluable, all the same. And thanks to my opponents and to everyone who stuck this one out and voted. Cheers, boys.
 

Know Your Enemy

Registered
Jul 18, 2004
6,817
391
North Vancouver
Cool. I'm glad I got to be a part of a championship winning team in my final ATD. Sturm deserves 99% of the credit for this victory, but i'll take the 1% and retire from the ATD. Thanks to all GM's who have participated, i've learned a ton from you guys since ATD6. Good luck to everyone in the future.
 

Hockey Outsider

Registered User
Jan 16, 2005
9,166
14,501
Winning ATD#11 feels a bit like winning the special olympics, but I guess that's just how it goes sometimes.

Although discussion was lacking towards the end let's not lose sight of the fact that this was arguably the most competitive ATD so far, with probably the largest & best group of GMs thus far & the highest standards for research & arguments to date. Congrats to you and ES.
 

Sturminator

Love is a duel
Feb 27, 2002
9,894
1,070
West Egg, New York
Yeah, you're right, HO. It was a strong field, even if the discussion/voting fizzled out a bit towards the end. On a related note, just for the sake of ATD history, I guess Doug Harvey is probably the ATD Conn-Smythe winner this time around. We've only got three stars information posted for two of Boston's 4 matchups, but Harvey was the #1 star in both of those, including the final. Only Peter Stastny stands as serious competition (#3 star in both rounds for which we have information), and he'd have had to beat Harvey by a significant margin in the other two serieses to make up the difference.

- Grant Fuhr becomes the first two-time winner in goal and the Fuhr/Kerr/McKenney troika become the first players to win consecutive Milt Dunnell Cups for the same "franchise" (insofar as one considers the San Francisco Spiders and Boston Bruins as contiguous entities by virtue of my participation with those teams).

It would be interesting to do a breakdown/comparison of the 6 ATD champions since the advent of the playoff system. My suspicion is that the ATD#7 Nanaimo Clippers will come out well ahead of the champions' field in a retrospective analysis, and that the ATD#10 and #11 championship teams will be the weakest of the 28 team league champions (with an asterisk next to pappy's ATD#9 32 team league champs for the sake of fairness) due to ever-increasing parity in the process.
 

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