ATD #11, Bob Cole Quarterfinals. Lada Togliatti (3) vs. Montreal Canadiens (6)

[Canadiens Fan]

- On the other hand, I will give the edge on penalty-kill unit to the Canadiens. Again, Sanderson-Westfall-Orr were great defensively for the 1970's Bruins. A saw 3-4 games of them, and they were very good on the PK. Having Henri on the second unit is pretty good too. However, will Tom Johnson doubleshift on the PK? That's a lot for someone who also play a regular shift with Bobby Orr.

Montreal Canadiens Penalty Kill Defensive Pairings.

Bobby Orr & Tom Johnson
J.C. Tremblay & Ted Harris

 

[nik jr]

Defensemen:

Not to spend too much time on Bobby Orr but it is worth noting.

Lada Tagliatti’s defense corps (all seven players).

- 12 All-Star selections
- finished in the top ten in goals once
- finished in the top ten in assists four times
- finished in the top ten in plus/minus twice
- finished in the top ten in penalty minutes eleven times

1 of my top 6 played when +/- was recorded. so that is nearly meaningless.


2 of my top 4 d-men played before all star teams. another played in USSR.

kasatonov
soviet all star 9 times, every season from '80-'88.
best d-man at '83 WC
WC all star '82, '83, '84, '85, '86, '91

USSR's leading scorer in the '81 canada cup.

i believe kasatonov is also 12th all time in scoring in best on best international tournaments.

My opponent has noted that he will be playing a trap system of defense. He also says he expects my team to play a dump and chase style. This is incorrect. When you have quality passers and stickhandlers on both your blue line and on your front line you play a game of puck possession and if anything Babcock has shown as a coach a willingness to adapt to his personnel.

Speaking with Brad Park recently he diagrammed for me personally, that the easiest way to beat the trap is by making a good quality first pass, thus putting the defense out of position. I don’t think that this group of d-men (along with Ian Turnbull, who also is more than capable of rushing the puck from the blueline or creating offense with his passes).

as a fan of the best puck possession team in the NHL, and just as a fan of hockey, i have seen this tried with little success very often.
it can work, but it rarely does. even in the "new NHL," with much stricter rules on obstruction, it does not usually work.

it is just much easier to destroy than it is to create.


DRW have been probably the best passing and most skilled team in the NHL for about 15 seasons. did that mean they could get through the trap with good 1st passes and speed? not with any level of consistency.

'95 is the most glaring example, but it has happened many other times. in '95, DRW had coffey, lidstrom, fetisov mark howe, fedorov, yzerman. all great passers. coffey and lidstromare 2 of the best outlet passers in history.
coffey and fedorov are 2 of the best skaters in history. they also had probably the best coach in history who obviously knew a lot about the trap (even more than brad park ).

but NJ swept.

there is a good reason clogging the neutral zone became a staple of hockey around the world. it is very effective.


i think my d-men's combination of size (and the related reach of the stick) and skating makes the trap significantly harder to penetrate.



of course, getting through the neutral zone is only part of the battle. there is still the defensive zone and the goalie to beat.

i have an advantage in both team D and goaltending.

Montreal will not use a dump and chase, but will instead attack the neutral zone with their speed, finesse, and skill. Can the other team keep Orr, Tremblay, Turnbull, Richard, Mahovlich, Malkin, Yakushev etc. all to the perimeter????

My opponent has admitted that he is looking to play a position game as opposed to a physical one to stop my offensive attack. For me this figures to be the key to the series. He maintains that he can keep Orr and my forwards to the perimeter, but by using a position game as opposed to a physical game. Will that work on a consistent basis????

this is incorrect.


what i actually said was that since montreal's F's are an unphysical group, defending them is primarily a matter of positional D, which is my team's main strength.
(that should not be controversial--positioning is the most fundamental aspect of D.)


but physicality is important, and is not in opposition to positional D.


none of my d-men were unphysical.
seibert was a huge, physically dominant player, and 1 of the most feared players of his time.
james patrick was a very good hitter and famously knocked lafontaine out of the '90 playoffs.
kasatonov was 1 of the more physical soviet d-men and was even willing to fight in the NHL.
gerard was probably less physical than average in his era, but that was an era of goonery and cheapshots.


frank patrick was described in The Trail of the Stanley Cup:

A rugged and well-built athlete, he did not mind mixing it up with players like Joe Hall.

from Hockey All Stars: The NHL Honor Roll:

Crawford broke into the Bruins' lineup for two games in 1937-38 and drew comparisons to Eddie Shore for more than sartorial reasons. Although Crawford's numbers never approached Shore's, his strong puck rushing and body-checking skills earned him a regular spot

from The Trail of the Stanley Cup, vol 2:

A Big and Powerful defenseman... lifting the cup in 1939 and 1941, Crawford was a standout in both of those years... Although a good rusher and solid blocker, he did not have the fire of Eddie Shore...

the lack of physicality of montreal's top 6 also makes for a better matchup with my 3rd line.




other important factors here are size and mobility.

all of my d-men were strong skaters. gerard, seibert, and both patrick's were very good skaters.
most of my F's were strong skaters.


gerard was not big--5'9 (which was probably about average for the time), but all of my other d-men were above average in size.

seibert: 6'2, 200 (huge for his time)
gerard: 5'9, 170
kasatonov: 6'1, 215
f patrick: (according to BM67) 5'11, 185 (large for his time)
crawford: 6', 200
j patrick: 6'2, 200
russell: 6'2, 205

their size and reach help them cover passing lanes, disrupt plays with the stick and push the play to the perimeter.



::::



but i think this part of the debate highlights something that, imo, is almost always a major issue about who wins a series.
that is:

who controls the slot and the front of the net?


i think physicality is 1 of the main advantages i have in this series. while both teams have a physical D-corps, my F's are much more physical than montreal's.

none of montreal's scoring F's is a physical player. i would not say any of them are soft players, but who does the dirty work? who contends with seibert near the crease? who can power through the D to the net?


i think the only of montreal's F's who are above average in physicality compared to my F's are sanderson, marcotte and muller.



my advantage in physicality is greatest among the scoring F's.


charlie conacher was a dominant power forward who drove very hard to the net.

With his linemates' help, Conacher became the best right wing in the game over the next half-decade. He was a daring and explosive scorer who used his size 6'1" and 200 pounds in his heyday - to his advantage. He could beat goalies equally well with his booming shot or with a deft move from close range. Once he got moving, he was famous for bowling over anyone between him and the net - and then often the net itself as he crossed the goal line just a few seconds after the puck.

- legendsofhockey.net

that combination of skill and power led to 5 goal scoring crowns. only bobby hull and phil esposito have more.


brian sutter was 1 of the most physical F's of his time. his tenacity and relentless physical play defined "sutter hockey" for the next 30 years. certainly not the most skilled player, but tenacity around the net can make up for a lot of skill.


although mikita was among the most skilled players, he was also a very gritty protege of ted lindsay. even after he stopped playing the same dirty style as lindsay, he remained a tough player. mikita was not a player to power to the net like conacher, but his willingness to initiate and take physical play is important.


propp was the least physical of my 1st liners, but was more physical than any of montreal's top 6. very hard working, gritty player with a nose for the net.
he was also a great clutch scorer. propp is the highest scoring LW in NHL playoff history.


although garry unger is a 4th liner, he is an important source of secondary scoring, particularly on the PP. not terribly physical, but played a tough, gritty game, and played though many injuries during his ironman streak of 914 games.


::::


another important factor in the question of who controls the slot and front of the net is defensive play from the F's.
d-men and goalies are the main defensive players but F's are important, too.


F's who allow an opposing d-man to move in and get a loose puck will be a problem.
F's who don't pick up an opposing F moving into the slot off the cycle will be a problem.


without question, my F's have better defensive awareness than montreal's.

henri richard was a very good defensive player, but the rest of montreal's top 6 are not, and defensive awareness is concentrated in the 3rd and 4th lines.

the only of my F's who were not good defensive players are conacher and unger.



i think the defensive abilities of lehtinen, poulin, propp and mikita are well known. but i will say a few things about my other F's.


gilles tremblay was counted on to shadow the best RW's like howe. his great speed enabled him to keep up with the fastest players in the NHL. he and provost were mainstays of the habs PK in the '60s.
tremblay was also a good goalscorer, scoring 20+ goals 5 times and 30+ once. tremblay was only in the top 10 in goals once, but he was 11th in goals twice.
according to jean beliveau, toe blake once said he would not trade tremblay for frank mahovlich.


prior to being a high scoring LW in the later '30s (2nd in goals in '38), georges mantha was a defensive forward and sometime d-man.

The solid defensive forward was a key influence on the Montreal club that upset the Boston Bruins in the 1930 Stanley Cup finals. The Beantowners were prohibitive favourites after posting a 38-5-1 record in the regular season, but their potent attack was stymied by the relentless checking of Mantha and linemates Pit Lepine and X. The next year, Mantha contributed five playoff goals when Montreal repeated as Cup winners in a hard fought series against the Chicago Black Hawks.

mantha was montreal's 2nd highest scorer in the '31 playoffs.


from the HHOF's conn smythe picks prior to '65:

1932-33 Cecil Dillon-NY Rangers
Winger from the checking line was the dominant player in the playoffs. He had goals in his first five playoff games including the winner in the opener of the finals against Toronto, then picked up the first goal in a 3-2 loss to the Leafs and was selected one of the games stars in a 1-0 overtime winner for his work in holding the Primeau-Conacher-Jackson line to no goals in the final.

peplinski was probably more famous for his fights, but he was a good defensive player who was a regular of calgary's PK with joel otto. he dominates the boards with his size and strength.

 

[Canadiens Fan]

propp was the least physical of my 1st liners, but was more physical than any of montreal's top 6. very hard working, gritty player with a nose for the net.
he was also a great clutch scorer. propp is the highest scoring LW in NHL playoff history.

Speaking of Propp ...

As I looked at the forward matchup on the first line I was struck by how even two-thirds of the first lines are.

Personally, I think Stan Mikita & Henri Richard is one of the best centre matchups in the opening round of the ATD. I was also struck by the two first line right wingers and their similarities.

Teemu Selanne – led league in goals three times
Charlie Conacher – led league in goals five times

Teemu Selanne – top ten in points six times
Charlie Conacher – top ten in points five times

Teemu Selanne – goals per regular season game 1.96
Charlie Conacher – goals per regular season game 2.04

Teemu Selanne – goals per playoff game 3
Charlie Conacher – goals per playoff game 2.88

In looking over the posts of the series however the name, Frank Mahovlich has been scarcely mentioned.

according to jean beliveau, toe blake once said he would not trade tremblay for frank mahovlich

And in season one of Legends of Hockey, Bertrand Raymond states that the one player that Sam Pollock coveted above all was Frank Mahovlich, vowing that if he ever got the chance, he would get him for the Canadiens, which he did in 1971.

In this series Mahovlich figures to play a prominent role.

In evaluating his counterpart on Lada I think we have one of the mismatches of the series.

Much to my surprise Brian Propp never finished top ten in goals, assists, or points during his career and was never once named a first or second team All-Star at Left Wing. Since he was a first line ATD left winger I assumed his credentials may have been better than I remembered.

I'm not quite sure what the point of Propp on this line is when a guy like Robitaille was available. I mean, Propp adds grit, defensive awareness and intangibles, sure, but those were already in abundance on this line and he doesn't add so much of any one thing to make it a real over-the-top-skull-cracker like Nanaimo's 1st line. In terms of talent and scoring ability, he's on the extreme low end by 1st line standards.

So I decided to widen my criteria into a top twenty and to see who some of his competition was at the position during the prime years of his career.

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List of All-Star left wingers 1979/80 – 1990/91.

Charlie Simmer, Steve Shutt, Bill Barber, Mark Messier, John Tonelli, Michel Goulet, John Ogrodnick, Mats Naslund, Luc Robitaille, Gerard Gallant, Brian Bellows, Kevin Stevens.

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List of left wingers in top twenty goal scorers 1979/80 -1990/91

1979/80 - Charlie Simmer 56 goals, Steve Shutt 47 goals, Rick Martin 45 goals, Steve Payne 42 goals, Bill Barber 40 goals

1980/81 – Charlie Simmer 56 goals, Jacques Richard 52 goals, Bill Barber 43 goals, Darryl Sutter 40 goals, Anton Stastny 39 goals

1981/82 – Mark Messier 50 goals, Bill Barber 45 goals, Brian Propp 44 goals, Al Secord 44 goals, Morris Lukowich 43 goals, Michel Goulet 42 goals

1982/83 – Michel Goulet 57 goals, Al Secord 54 goals, Mark Messier 48 goals, Brian Sutter 46 goals, Darcy Rota 42 goals, John Ogrodnick 41 goals

1983/84 – Michel Goulet 56 goals, Charlie Simmer 44 goals, John Ogrodnick 42 goals, Brian Bellows 41 goals, Sylvain Turgeon 40 goals

1984/85 – John Ogrodnick 55 goals, Mike Krushelnyski 43 goals, Brian Propp 43 goals, John Tonelli 42 goals, Mats Naslund 42 goals

1985/86 – Michel Goulet 53 goals, Sylvain Turgeon 45 goals, Mats Naslund 43 goals

1986/87 – Michel Goulet 49 goals, Luc Robitaille 45 goals, Walt Poddubny 40 goals, Brent Ashton 40 goals, Gerald Gallant 38 goals

1987/88 – Craig Simpson 56 goals, Luc Robitaille 53 goals, Michel Goulet 48 goals

1988/89 – Luc Robitaille 46 goals, Geoff Courtnall 42 goals

1989/90 – Brian Bellows 55 goals, Luc Robitaille 52 goals, John Ogrodnick 43 goals, Dave Andreychuk 40 goals, Steve Thomas 40 goals

1990/91 – Luc Robitaille 45 goals, Kevin Stevens 40 goals

Left – Wingers in Top-20 Goal Scorers 1979/80 - 1990/91

Michel Goulet – 6
Luc Robitaille – 5
John Ogrodnick - 4
Charlie Simmer – 3
Bill Barber – 3
Mark Messier – 2
Al Secord – 2
Brian Bellows – 2
Mats Naslund – 2
Sylvain Turgeon – 2
Brian Propp – 2
Steve Shutt – 1
Rick Martin – 1
Steve Payne – 1
Jacques Richard – 1
Darryl Sutter – 1
Anton Stastny – 1
Morris Lukowich – 1
Darcy Rota – 1
Mike Krushelnyski – 1
John Tonelli – 1
Gerard Gallant – 1
Craig Simpson – 1
Geoff Courtnall – 1
Dave Andreychuk – 1
Kevin Stevens – 1
Steve Thomas – 1
Walt Podubny – 1
Brent Ashton – 1
Brian Sutter – 1

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List of left wingers in top twenty point scorers 1979/80 – 1990/91

1979/80 – Charlie Simmer 101 points, Steve Shutt 89 points

1980/81 – Charlie Simmer 105 points, Jacques Richard 103 points

1981/82 – John Tonelli 93 points, Morris Lukowich 92 points

1982/83 – Mark Messier 106 points, Michel Goulet 105 points, Anton Stastny 92 points

1983/84 – Michel Goulet 121 points, Mark Messier 101 points, Charlie Simmer 92 points, Brian Propp 92 points

1984/85 – John Ogrodnick 105 points, John Tonelli 100 points, Brian Propp 97 points, Michel Goulet 95 points

1985/86 – Mats Naslund 110 points, Michel Goulet 104 points, Brian Propp 97 points

1986/87 – Michel Goulet 96 points, Walt Poddubny 87 points, Luc Robitaille 84 points

1987/88 – Luc Robitaille 111 points, Michel Goulet 106 points, Kirk Muller 94 points, Craig Simpson 90 points

1988/89 – Luc Robitaille 98 points, Gerard Gallant 93 points

1989/90 – Luc Robitaille 101 points, Brian Bellows 99 points

1990/91 – Luc Robitaille 91 points

Left – Wingers in Top-20 Points Scorers 1979/80 - 1990/91

Michel Goulet – 5
Luc Robitaille – 5
Charlie Simmer – 3
Brian Propp – 3 (tied for 19th overall in 1983/84,19th in 1984/85, tied for 15th in 1985/86)
John Tonelli – 2
Mark Messier – 2
Steve Shutt – 1
Jacques Richard – 1
Morris Lukowich – 1
Anton Stastny – 1
John Ogrodnick – 1
Mats Naslund – 1
Walt Podubny – 1
Craig Simpson – 1
Gerard Gallant – 1
Brian Bellows – 1
Kirk Muller – 1

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It turns out that Brian Propp twice finished in the top twenty in goals, and three times placed in the top twenty in points. Interestingly enough the highest he ever finished in one season for goals was 13th overall with a high position of third amongst left-wingers.

When it comes to points the highest rank he ever achieved in a particular season a tie for fifteenth overall amongst all scorers and only a high of third best amongst left wingers.

Just as a way of comparison I would note that his counterpart on the Montreal Canadiens;

- was a first team All-Star Left Winger three times in his career
- was a second team All-Star Left Winger six times in his career
- finished in the top ten for goals on eight occasions
- finished in the top ten for assists on three occasions
- finished in the top ten for points on seven occasions

Since Brian Propp never achieved any of these honours, I think it would be fair to see how Mahovlich faired vis-à-vis Propp when we take into account top twenty finishes in goals and assists during their respective career.

Brian Propp – Top Twenty in Goals 2 times
Frank Mahovlich – Top Twenty in Goals 14 times

Brian Propp – Top Twenty in Points 3 times
Frank Mahovlich – Top Twenty in Points 13 times

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And not to put too much of a point on it but Brian Propp compared to the much maligned Alexei Kovalev.

Alexei Kovalev – Top Twenty in Goals 4 times (Propp twice)
Top Twenty in Points 4 times (Propp three times)

And Kovalev has been named to a post-season All-Star team.

 

[Canadiens Fan]

as a fan of the best puck possession team in the NHL, and just as a fan of hockey, i have seen this tried with little success very often.
it can work, but it rarely does. even in the "new NHL," with much stricter rules on obstruction, it does not usually work.

it is just much easier to destroy than it is to create.


DRW have been probably the best passing and most skilled team in the NHL for about 15 seasons. did that mean they could get through the trap with good 1st passes and speed? not with any level of consistency.

'95 is the most glaring example, but it has happened many other times. in '95, DRW had coffey, lidstrom, fetisov mark howe, fedorov, yzerman. all great passers. coffey and lidstromare 2 of the best outlet passers in history.
coffey and fedorov are 2 of the best skaters in history. they also had probably the best coach in history who obviously knew a lot about the trap (even more than brad park ).

but NJ swept.

there is a good reason clogging the neutral zone became a staple of hockey around the world. it is very effective.

.

Like when New Jersey missed the playoffs the following year under Lemaire ??

Or the year after when they lost to the Rangers in five games in the round of eight ??

Or the year after that when they lost to the Senators in the first round ??

 

[Canadiens Fan]

1 of my top 6 played when +/- was recorded. so that is nearly meaningless.


2 of my top 4 d-men played before all star teams. another played in USSR.

Also four of your top six dmen played before the slapshot was invented.

Therefore, the shots from the point figure to be of the wrist or snap variety making them much easier for my defense or goalie to stop. On the flipside it figures that they will also have a tough time defending a slapshot since they are unfamiliar with it.

Likewise an onrushing defenseman like Orr would seem to pose problems for the majority of your dmen who weren't exactly used to the concept of an offensive defenseman, especially one like Orr.

I would also hazard a guess that buying into a trap system would be difficult for your backline since most of them played in the days before specific systems were incorporated into the game. Also, the fact that no player on your team has ever played on a Jacques Lemaire "trap" team indicates that a steep learning curve must be quickly absorbed.

Another adjustment for your backend that I think would take some getting used to would be playing with a goalie who roams from the net to handle the puck, considering the majority of your d-men played with goaltenders anchored to their crease. I would think they would also be unused to a goaltender communicating with them in addition to handling the puck.

i think my d-men's combination of size (and the related reach of the stick) and skating makes the trap significantly harder to penetrate.

Your top defenseman, Eddie Gerard, is the exact same size as Henri Richard !!!

Each of my other top six forwards are all over six feet. I don't foresee many penetration problems. My front six may not be the most physical, but they've found a way to put the puck in the back of the net a lot of times. A number one defenceman at 5'7' & 165 pounds doesn't figure to change that.

brian sutter was 1 of the most physical F's of his time. his tenacity and relentless physical play defined "sutter hockey" for the next 30 years. certainly not the most skilled player, but tenacity around the net can make up for a lot of skill.

A career mark of 21 goals in 65 playoff games and a -12 suggests the opposite.

although garry unger is a 4th liner, he is an important source of secondary scoring, particularly on the PP. not terribly physical, but played a tough, gritty game, and played though many injuries during his ironman streak of 914 games.

A career mark of 12 goals in 52 playoff games and a total of 2 career playoff power play goals argues against his value, particularly on the power play.

 

[seventieslord]

The Lada Togliatti (3) vs. The Montreal Canadiens (6)

Game Results:

Lada Togliatti: 5 - Montreal Canadiens: 3
Lada Togliatti: 6 - Montreal Canadiens: 5 OT
Montreal Canadiens: 4 - Lada Togliatti: 2
Montreal Canadiens: 0 - Lada Togliatti: 2
Lada Togliatti: 2 - Montreal Canadiens: 3
Montreal Canadiens: 1 - Lada Togliatti: 5

The Lada Togliatti (3) defeats The Montreal Canadiens (6) in 6 games.


Series Three Stars

1: Bobby Orr - Montreal Canadiens
2: Stan Mikita - Lada Togliatti
3: Jean Ratelle - Lada Togliatti


Series Recap:

- It seems they were only two gladiators on the ice for this series: Bobby Orr and Stan Mikita. In a epic battle that went on in all 6 games, both were always together: skating, chasing, fighting, throwing shoulders and elbows around. It was beautiful to see, a true spectacle.

- While both goaltenders are known to be able to stole games on their own, Ed Belfour and Gerry Cheevers played good all series, while never stoling the shows. Both made the saves they had to do.

- Jean Ratelle was particularly efficient on a line with Brian Sutter and Cecil Dillon. He scored some key goals, especially in game 4 where he scored the first goal of the game with three minutes to go in the game from a beautiful tape-to-tape pass from captain Eddie Gerard.