Atd#10-ML The James Creighton Cup Final: Regina Capitals vs. Oxford Dark Blues
- Thread starter VanIslander
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VanIslander
A 19-year ATDer on HfBoards
An entire week for discussion.
Voting day won't be until next Friday.
(Eaglebelfour will be tallying the votes then.)
Voting day won't be until next Friday.
(Eaglebelfour will be tallying the votes then.)
Wow. Playing in my first finals. This is a cool feeling.
First off, I'll start by congratulating Nalyd and VanI for a helluva team that deserved to advance this far. Second, good luck on what will hopefully be a tough, respectful debate and argument, and may the best team win it all.
First off, I'll start by congratulating Nalyd and VanI for a helluva team that deserved to advance this far. Second, good luck on what will hopefully be a tough, respectful debate and argument, and may the best team win it all.
Nalyd Psycho
Registered User
Wow. Playing in my first finals. This is a cool feeling.
First off, I'll start by congratulating Nalyd and VanI for a helluva team that deserved to advance this far. Second, good luck on what will hopefully be a tough, respectful debate and argument, and may the best team win it all.
My sentiments exactly.
Now.
LETS BRING IT ON!
VanIslander
A 19-year ATDer on HfBoards
Let me start off by saying:
The two-GM, one-coach approach has served both teams well.
Before the draft I'd pencilled in Prodger as Coutu's partner on the Dark Blues second pairing with Svehla as the backup plan, had Cal Gardner on the fourth line center depth chart (first on our extra forward list at one point), and assumed Skrudland had gone in the main ATD draft as a fourth line starter; Nilsson and Rolston I thought would go earlier than I would take them (and they did) while Skinner I'd totally overlooked.
The Capitals have the best shutdown third line in the entire draft imo with championship experience in that role though it'll be interesting to see which of the four Dark Blues clutch playoff scoring lines it'll be used against most.
I am surprised at the relative lack of championship playoff goal scoring on the Capitals line-up. Amonte and Haynes certainly are unproven, Nilsson has good playoff passing but never scored more than three goals in any entire NHL playoff season and his linemates, Babich is a passer more than scorer and Payne is surprisingly Regina's best clutch playoff goal scorer though only once got anywhere near Lord Stanley's Cup; Kozlov is The Man on that squad? Krushelnyski ought to play in Probert's place imo, though it's the Capitals GMs call to make.
The two-GM, one-coach approach has served both teams well.
Before the draft I'd pencilled in Prodger as Coutu's partner on the Dark Blues second pairing with Svehla as the backup plan, had Cal Gardner on the fourth line center depth chart (first on our extra forward list at one point), and assumed Skrudland had gone in the main ATD draft as a fourth line starter; Nilsson and Rolston I thought would go earlier than I would take them (and they did) while Skinner I'd totally overlooked.
The Capitals have the best shutdown third line in the entire draft imo with championship experience in that role though it'll be interesting to see which of the four Dark Blues clutch playoff scoring lines it'll be used against most.
I am surprised at the relative lack of championship playoff goal scoring on the Capitals line-up. Amonte and Haynes certainly are unproven, Nilsson has good playoff passing but never scored more than three goals in any entire NHL playoff season and his linemates, Babich is a passer more than scorer and Payne is surprisingly Regina's best clutch playoff goal scorer though only once got anywhere near Lord Stanley's Cup; Kozlov is The Man on that squad? Krushelnyski ought to play in Probert's place imo, though it's the Capitals GMs call to make.
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Okay, well I can't let this go the way Oxford's last series went.
I'm intrigued by the comment about Nilsson being a good playoff passer, but not a playoff scorer. He had 6 goals and 13 assists for 19 points in 86-87 when the Oilers won the cup. Was 5th in points on the champs behind the big-4 of Gretz, Messier, Anderson and Kurri, but also 5th in goals behind Kurri, Anderson, Messier, and Tikkanen...ahead of Wayne Gretzky, who had 5. While that may not sound that impressive, consider the guys who were ahead of him, and consider that he had more goals than Wayne Gretzky that playoff season.
Babich also had 140 goals in 170 games according to his bio written by my co-GM...and he has plenty of big time (national team, league championship) experience, so I don't think our top line will have much problems scoring goals.
In fact, I think the biggest factor of this series may be whether anyone on Oxford will be able to stop our top line. I don't know anything about guys like Loktev or Hooper, so I can't fairly comment or criticize them, however I'm pretty familiar with that third line, which I'm assuming is the "shutdown" line, or the closest to one out of the four. I think we'll be able to exploit that line. Sykora? Good player, and a pretty good scorer, but what about his defensive game? Maybe I'm off, and the plan is to try and match the top lines head to head, or maybe the fourth line (which I see as a ideal energy line, but not a go-to line in any department). But we have home-ice, and Coach Gerard will get to decide that.
As for Probert/Krushelnyski...we almost made a switch last series against Melville, but decided to keep Bobby P in to deal with Johnny Wensink...I don't see a enforcer of that level on Oxford, so maybe Krusher will be a better fit. I'll think about it, but at this point it's very likely that we decide to do that.
I'm intrigued by the comment about Nilsson being a good playoff passer, but not a playoff scorer. He had 6 goals and 13 assists for 19 points in 86-87 when the Oilers won the cup. Was 5th in points on the champs behind the big-4 of Gretz, Messier, Anderson and Kurri, but also 5th in goals behind Kurri, Anderson, Messier, and Tikkanen...ahead of Wayne Gretzky, who had 5. While that may not sound that impressive, consider the guys who were ahead of him, and consider that he had more goals than Wayne Gretzky that playoff season.
Babich also had 140 goals in 170 games according to his bio written by my co-GM...and he has plenty of big time (national team, league championship) experience, so I don't think our top line will have much problems scoring goals.
In fact, I think the biggest factor of this series may be whether anyone on Oxford will be able to stop our top line. I don't know anything about guys like Loktev or Hooper, so I can't fairly comment or criticize them, however I'm pretty familiar with that third line, which I'm assuming is the "shutdown" line, or the closest to one out of the four. I think we'll be able to exploit that line. Sykora? Good player, and a pretty good scorer, but what about his defensive game? Maybe I'm off, and the plan is to try and match the top lines head to head, or maybe the fourth line (which I see as a ideal energy line, but not a go-to line in any department). But we have home-ice, and Coach Gerard will get to decide that.
As for Probert/Krushelnyski...we almost made a switch last series against Melville, but decided to keep Bobby P in to deal with Johnny Wensink...I don't see a enforcer of that level on Oxford, so maybe Krusher will be a better fit. I'll think about it, but at this point it's very likely that we decide to do that.
VanIslander
A 19-year ATDer on HfBoards
I had stated he at most scored 3 goals in any postseason. That was his Calgary Flames days. I forgot about his short term half season rental as an Oiler in 1987. My mistake. He indeed was fourth in scoring with 6 for the Edmonton cup-winning team. Eleven goals in 59 playoff games: my point stands. An effective passer in an all-time context for the playoffs, but underwhelming goals per game average.
And his winger Babich wasn't known to be a finisher, though of course on the best Soviet line of the 1950's he got plenty of goals. His excellence was in doing the little things, in his hockey sense and passing surely, with Bobrov as the finisher on that line. I just question how his GOAL scoring translates in an all-time context. As you know, I think him quite worthy, having drafted him before as a fourth line winger.
My point also stands as to the relative dearth of playoff goal scoring on the Capitals. The squad simply lacks playoff finishers.
You don't know anything, really? The quotes, links and descriptions I cited in multiple posts this draft didn't inform you of anything. (I swear no one reads the research I spend hours putting together. Why bother?)
Bad assumption. I had posted at least three times about the third line. Coach Tikhonov rose to fame by playing four lines, icing the freshest legs and hardworking, dsiciplined guys. The Oxford third line plays THE SYSTEM, is just as important in the postseason as any other line. Deadmarsh will bang the boards and scrape up pucks in corners. Arnott will be physical and effective in traffic. Having those two guys make multiple clutch playoff and championship-key goals on a line with fellow playoff hero Sykora breathes of chemistry and success. All three are noteworthy Stanley Cup heroes in an all-time context. They are a 1A, 1B or 1C line, however you wanna see it.
The only line with any specific defensive responsibilities will be the Gelinas-Koivu-Houle line with - specifically - Houle more than capable of taking on the only two Capitals playoff goal scoring talents: opposing wingers Payne and Kozlov. The lack of playoff goal scoring depth on the Capitals is apparent.
As for the Oxford ability to shutdown the Capitals first line, well, containment will suffice, as the other lines aren't so big on playoff goals (except Kozlov a bit). The second line pivot and right winger have certainly not been playoff performers: scoring depth is not a Capitals' strength. Moreover, vancityluongo,
your very own co-GM ranked the Oxford blueline as the best defensive defensemen core in the entire draft. That should bode well for the Dark Blues' ability to contain the Capitals top line. And the proven goaltending should help.
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Fair enough.
So he should be fine with Payne as the finisher, rather than Bobrov. I think a line can work decent with two primary playmakers with some scoring ability, and a pure scorer.
I've read pretty much everything you've posted throughout the draft...but I don't have the time or the ability to remember every player. I will now for sure go back and look at what you've posted about your guys, but as of right now, I don't know enough about them to make a decent case for ourselves. And I'm not going to enter into a trap by thrashing a bunch of players I don't know about, when for all I know, you could turn around, prove me wrong, and smash any argument and credibility I have in not only those, but other arguments as well.
Not to mention,it's not like you're going to post about your player's weaknesses in bios (at least people wouldn't), so I can't base arguments on that.
Again, my bad. This is the reason why I opted out being a full-time co-GM in the AAA, because I'm busy enough already, and I'll be busier in the next couple weeks. Not enough time to read over and remember everything.
Really? You guys have obviously had success (thus far
) with these lines, but I'd switch Koivu and Arnott around if that's the case. Koivu is talented enough offensively, and decent defensively, but as a shutdown/defensive center? Saku IMO is best suited as a third scoring line center, while I think Arnott would be your prototypical strong 4th line center, but hey, what do I know? If we can exploit that, all the better for us.As for not being able to score playoff goals, let me ask you, [since I've been (almost rightfully) criticized of not reading a bunch of posts] have you read the stuff seventies has posted about our roster? The only guy you really have a case for IMO is Amonte, who was a bit underwhelming in his playoffs, however his team didn't qualify for 4 straight years in his prime (after the season in which he got 6 points in 6 games). Yeah, we don't go by what could've happened, but Amonte isn't a choker, he just wasn't in a winning environment. He is here. Haynes is a seventies guy, but according to him (by my understanding) scoring altogether went down during that era, and Haynes' went down far less than the average player.
Also, I have to add, this line works well in terms of chemistry. Amonte is the pure finisher for Haynes, the slick pure playmaker. Kozlov is also a goalscorer, and provides some intangibles. All our guys can skate, but Amonte and Haynes can fly.
Just to point out, our top-6 has three finishers, and three playmakers. There's no problem with balance here, especially if you look at things just as simple as that.
As for the Oxford ability to shutdown the Capitals first line, well, containment will suffice, as the other lines aren't so big on playoff goals (except Kozlov a bit). The second line pivot and right winger have certainly not been playoff performers: scoring depth is not a Capitals' strength. Moreover, vancityluongo,
Maybe because we couldn't vote for ourselves?
(I'm kidding, just to make sure)I admit, you guys have a solid defense core, but our guys are absolutely not slouches, both on the backend and up front. I'm not going to get into goaltending much, because while I think Kipper is just as good as either of your two, it's pretty obvious that as far as tandems, Oxford's is better. But by taking both your goalies that early, there have to be some flaws in terms of skaters that could've been covered if you'd taken a player at that time instead. I'm gonna exploit those holes.
seventieslord
Student Of The Game
I'm on a train right now. I had net access just long enough to load up the ATD section of the site and post a couple of comments. By the time I got to this page, it was time to board. At least I have the page loaded so I can read, and write up a reply in a notepad file, and post it later. Sorry if my comments are out of date when I get the chance to submit them
It's an honour to be here with you guys, and I find it really difficult to really pick the lineup apart and find question marks. As I posted earlier in the MLD thread, your team has the most former Regina players (4), aside from Regina.
- Dickie Boon was Regina's #1 D-man in MLD9 (it was a shallower draft at the top end) so it's no secret I like him.
- JRR was Regina's backup goalie in ATD8 and ATD9 and he absolutely should be an ATD backup. A whole career full of being the 4th-6th best goalie in hockey as well as a couple brief flashes of greatness, sounds like a Lumley/Rayner kind of level to me.
- Richer was our top line RW in MLD8, he can work, the problem was we just had too many flakes in the top-6. Kozlov was the biggest intangible guy on those two lines, followed by... Rick Nash! yikes. So what I'm trying to say is Richer can work, it's a matter of not having too many flaky guys like him.
- Malecek was our 2nd line center in MLD9. Considering this draft was deeper than MLD9 at the top end of the draft, did we have an embarrassment of riches at center, or did Oxford reach for their first liner?
Short notes on topics already mentioned:
- Coaching: We're proud of our coach. But it's hard to say he'll provide a significant advantage over Tikhonov. His level of success is undeniable, it's really just the potential of clashes with players that keeps him falling in these things, isn't it?
- Interesting to hear you were after Prodger. he and Coutu would have been one scory pairing. Also, surprised to hear anyone was after Svehla. He just flies under every radar, for whatever reason. I've had him before; never heard a word about the pick, good or bad. He was an ATD regular and I never saw his name really discussed. We were just letting him fall and fall until we couldn't stand it anymore. I had a feeling you were Gardner fans (hope I did an OK job on the bio to do him justice!) and Skrudland was someone we could have easily assumed was already taken if we weren't careful. Nilsson by making it to the MLD at all, was a late pick, IMO. With Rolston being active I'm not surprised that opinions on him can differ a lot. We also let him slide pretty far - VCL can attest to this, he pushed for this pick about 8 times in a row before we finally went ahead with it! He had the best Selke record at the time we took him, as well as significant offensive production - though never anything elite.
- Boon, Arnott, Houle, and Gelinas were all potential Regina picks. Coutu should have been on our list too. You did a great job selling Houle; I was never really sold on his defensive play until this draft. Both your goalies were on our radar too. Roach was in out "big 5" that we established early on in our scouting talks, and Edwards is easily the best backup in the draft.
- Thanks for the compliment on the checking line. We feel Rolston is an important part of it. He can be dangerous on the PK and has speed to burn so he gives the line an element that it otherwise wouldn't have had if we just put a third "pure shutdown" player there. Peters is in his third stint as a Regina minor leaguer; hopefully he's made a name for himself now, and gets taken by someone else next time around. As for who it will play against, it's safe to say that we would like it up against either of the top-2 lines. (I'd call those two lines 1A and 1B; one doesn't appear too much better than the other.)
- As for championship playoff goalscoring, it is there. Skinner was a goalscoring machine in two finals, one of which he won. (don't feel bad about overlooking him, he's been overlooked hundreds of time now; this is only his second time being selected and the first time was by Regina, too. I tried to call attention to him in a thread in the HOH section before then too, but no one listened! Haynes is unproven only if you are referring to goalscoring in particular. Don't let the raw numbers fool you: He was top-5 in playoff assists twice, and his career PPG drops 16% even though playoff scoring dropped an average of 20% in the years he made the playoffs. Amonte's playoff record isn't great, but has he ever had a playmaker like Haynes in the playoffs? Failing that combination clicking, he's got a guy on the other side with a solid record of clutch scoring in Kozlov. Slava has a pair of cups in three finals, and leads the Red Wings in playoff game winners all-time, even though Howe, Yzerman, Fedorov, Delvecchio and Ullman played on the wings a lot longer than him. We think Amonte can pull his weight now that he has a center who can skate with him, but dishing off to Kozlov isn't a bad plan B for Haynesey. You are right on Nilsson and Payne (besides the part my protege corrected you on) but that doesn't concern us. We don't need everyone on the line to be a proven playoff goalscorer. Balance is the key. Babich is a passer, Payne a scorer, and Nilsson can do both, although as you alluded to, he doesn't have a history of being the last one to touch the puck before it goes in, in playoff contests.
- Re: Probert - he may not have much use in this series. It's very likely that Krusher will take his place on the 4th line. I've had 24 hours to daydream about this matchup and it makes the most sense, I think. Also, to get Nilsson more grit and playoff scoring on his unit, Skinner might get switched with Babich. babich has the mindset to play a 4th-line role effectively, and Skinner's championship scoring experience becomes more crucial in a finals matchup against an opponent with plenty of their own to speak of. He needs first line minutes to really shine and get those 4-5 goals he's due for - he won't get that many from the 4th.
- I have to echo my co-GM's comments, since finding some sort of Oxford weakness will be crucial to winning. First, although you have a solid lineup throughout, none of the four lines jump out at me as a "shutdown" unit. They're gonna want to try trading goals with us, and that's fine by us. Skrudland/Rolston/Peters have what it takes to shutdown the line they match up with, but will any Oxford line make a significant impact on a Regina scoring unit?
- VI sounds ready to tout his playoff clutch goalscoring that can be found throughout the lineup. If I were him I'd do the same. I can think of at least a couple of big goals scored by each of the bottom-six forwards, except Houle, but considering he was a Dynasty Hab, I'm sure he had a few big ones. However, where are the playmakers? Who's going to pass to them to get these goals? There's no Nilsson, Haynes, or even Apps, in this lineup. I know none of them have made the top-10 before, but beyond that, what is the career single-season high for assists out of Deadmarsh, Arnott, Houle, Koivu, Gelinas, and Sykora? 45? Boon will move the puck well and find the forwards, but that is not a unique advantage as Regina has Jeff Brown to do the same.
- Re: goaltending and coaching. In net, both teams ended up with one of our pre-draft "big 5" - I'm not prepared to declare either goalie as an advantage over the other. I think both should be ATD backups. As for coaching, same thing. Tikhonov, as VCL would concur, is a guy we considered taking too. These are potentially two of the top 3 or 4 coaches in the draft, depending on how you feel about Pilous and Boucher. And both coaches are well-suited to their teams, too.
It's an honour to be here with you guys, and I find it really difficult to really pick the lineup apart and find question marks. As I posted earlier in the MLD thread, your team has the most former Regina players (4), aside from Regina.
- Dickie Boon was Regina's #1 D-man in MLD9 (it was a shallower draft at the top end) so it's no secret I like him.
- JRR was Regina's backup goalie in ATD8 and ATD9 and he absolutely should be an ATD backup. A whole career full of being the 4th-6th best goalie in hockey as well as a couple brief flashes of greatness, sounds like a Lumley/Rayner kind of level to me.
- Richer was our top line RW in MLD8, he can work, the problem was we just had too many flakes in the top-6. Kozlov was the biggest intangible guy on those two lines, followed by... Rick Nash! yikes. So what I'm trying to say is Richer can work, it's a matter of not having too many flaky guys like him.
- Malecek was our 2nd line center in MLD9. Considering this draft was deeper than MLD9 at the top end of the draft, did we have an embarrassment of riches at center, or did Oxford reach for their first liner?
Short notes on topics already mentioned:
- Coaching: We're proud of our coach. But it's hard to say he'll provide a significant advantage over Tikhonov. His level of success is undeniable, it's really just the potential of clashes with players that keeps him falling in these things, isn't it?
- Interesting to hear you were after Prodger. he and Coutu would have been one scory pairing. Also, surprised to hear anyone was after Svehla. He just flies under every radar, for whatever reason. I've had him before; never heard a word about the pick, good or bad. He was an ATD regular and I never saw his name really discussed. We were just letting him fall and fall until we couldn't stand it anymore. I had a feeling you were Gardner fans (hope I did an OK job on the bio to do him justice!) and Skrudland was someone we could have easily assumed was already taken if we weren't careful. Nilsson by making it to the MLD at all, was a late pick, IMO. With Rolston being active I'm not surprised that opinions on him can differ a lot. We also let him slide pretty far - VCL can attest to this, he pushed for this pick about 8 times in a row before we finally went ahead with it! He had the best Selke record at the time we took him, as well as significant offensive production - though never anything elite.
- Boon, Arnott, Houle, and Gelinas were all potential Regina picks. Coutu should have been on our list too. You did a great job selling Houle; I was never really sold on his defensive play until this draft. Both your goalies were on our radar too. Roach was in out "big 5" that we established early on in our scouting talks, and Edwards is easily the best backup in the draft.
- Thanks for the compliment on the checking line. We feel Rolston is an important part of it. He can be dangerous on the PK and has speed to burn so he gives the line an element that it otherwise wouldn't have had if we just put a third "pure shutdown" player there. Peters is in his third stint as a Regina minor leaguer; hopefully he's made a name for himself now, and gets taken by someone else next time around. As for who it will play against, it's safe to say that we would like it up against either of the top-2 lines. (I'd call those two lines 1A and 1B; one doesn't appear too much better than the other.)
- As for championship playoff goalscoring, it is there. Skinner was a goalscoring machine in two finals, one of which he won. (don't feel bad about overlooking him, he's been overlooked hundreds of time now; this is only his second time being selected and the first time was by Regina, too. I tried to call attention to him in a thread in the HOH section before then too, but no one listened! Haynes is unproven only if you are referring to goalscoring in particular. Don't let the raw numbers fool you: He was top-5 in playoff assists twice, and his career PPG drops 16% even though playoff scoring dropped an average of 20% in the years he made the playoffs. Amonte's playoff record isn't great, but has he ever had a playmaker like Haynes in the playoffs? Failing that combination clicking, he's got a guy on the other side with a solid record of clutch scoring in Kozlov. Slava has a pair of cups in three finals, and leads the Red Wings in playoff game winners all-time, even though Howe, Yzerman, Fedorov, Delvecchio and Ullman played on the wings a lot longer than him. We think Amonte can pull his weight now that he has a center who can skate with him, but dishing off to Kozlov isn't a bad plan B for Haynesey. You are right on Nilsson and Payne (besides the part my protege corrected you on) but that doesn't concern us. We don't need everyone on the line to be a proven playoff goalscorer. Balance is the key. Babich is a passer, Payne a scorer, and Nilsson can do both, although as you alluded to, he doesn't have a history of being the last one to touch the puck before it goes in, in playoff contests.
- Re: Probert - he may not have much use in this series. It's very likely that Krusher will take his place on the 4th line. I've had 24 hours to daydream about this matchup and it makes the most sense, I think. Also, to get Nilsson more grit and playoff scoring on his unit, Skinner might get switched with Babich. babich has the mindset to play a 4th-line role effectively, and Skinner's championship scoring experience becomes more crucial in a finals matchup against an opponent with plenty of their own to speak of. He needs first line minutes to really shine and get those 4-5 goals he's due for - he won't get that many from the 4th.
- I have to echo my co-GM's comments, since finding some sort of Oxford weakness will be crucial to winning. First, although you have a solid lineup throughout, none of the four lines jump out at me as a "shutdown" unit. They're gonna want to try trading goals with us, and that's fine by us. Skrudland/Rolston/Peters have what it takes to shutdown the line they match up with, but will any Oxford line make a significant impact on a Regina scoring unit?
- VI sounds ready to tout his playoff clutch goalscoring that can be found throughout the lineup. If I were him I'd do the same. I can think of at least a couple of big goals scored by each of the bottom-six forwards, except Houle, but considering he was a Dynasty Hab, I'm sure he had a few big ones. However, where are the playmakers? Who's going to pass to them to get these goals? There's no Nilsson, Haynes, or even Apps, in this lineup. I know none of them have made the top-10 before, but beyond that, what is the career single-season high for assists out of Deadmarsh, Arnott, Houle, Koivu, Gelinas, and Sykora? 45? Boon will move the puck well and find the forwards, but that is not a unique advantage as Regina has Jeff Brown to do the same.
- Re: goaltending and coaching. In net, both teams ended up with one of our pre-draft "big 5" - I'm not prepared to declare either goalie as an advantage over the other. I think both should be ATD backups. As for coaching, same thing. Tikhonov, as VCL would concur, is a guy we considered taking too. These are potentially two of the top 3 or 4 coaches in the draft, depending on how you feel about Pilous and Boucher. And both coaches are well-suited to their teams, too.
Nalyd Psycho
Registered User
It's not that Payne can't finish. It's just, this is the finals, is he elite enough to be your star scorer? He was a big fish in a small pond player. Remember, he played in the 80's. His raw numbers look good, but, aside from '80-'81 he was never really a cut above. And even then, given what he achieved, wasn't a better playoff than Arnott's 2000 playoff?
Really? You guys have obviously had success (thus far
There is some merit to the saying, "The best defence is a good offence." Obviously playing all offence will bite back. But with a five man unit of Gelinas-Koivu-Houle-Boon-Machac/Coutu-Ley is hardly all offence. Ensuring that we have a legitimate counter attack threat makes the defensive strength of the line more potent. I feel confident that Boon-Machac is the best shutdown pairing in the draft. And that Coutu-Ley is close, while also being one of the toughest pairings in the draft as well. And the best defensive 2nd pairing. While Bilyaletdinov-Lewis is the best defensive 3rd pairing. It is our defence pairings that will be causing your forwards the most trouble, so, make no mistake, there's nothing to take advantage of.
It's not that your players aren't good. You got this far. I just fail to see what your top 6 offers that our 3rd line doesn't offer.
I admit, you guys have a solid defense core, but our guys are absolutely not slouches, both on the backend and up front. I'm not going to get into goaltending much, because while I think Kipper is just as good as either of your two, it's pretty obvious that as far as tandems, Oxford's is better. But by taking both your goalies that early, there have to be some flaws in terms of skaters that could've been covered if you'd taken a player at that time instead. I'm gonna exploit those holes.
I don't see the holes. We have size, skill, speed, two-way play on both the front and back end.
I'm on a train right now. I had net access just long enough to load up the ATD section of the site and post a couple of comments. By the time I got to this page, it was time to board. At least I have the page loaded so I can read, and write up a reply in a notepad file, and post it later. Sorry if my comments are out of date when I get the chance to submit them
It's an honour to be here with you guys, and I find it really difficult to really pick the lineup apart and find question marks. As I posted earlier in the MLD thread, your team has the most former Regina players (4), aside from Regina.
Thank you for making the effort. I love healthy debate.
I think he's been under appreciated. As you're aware, many older players need a promoter for them to get the recognition they deserve before they can make the transition from obscure to underrated and, finally, appreciated. I am trying my darnedest to be Malecek's promoter.
I think Svehla is a very solid all rounder in the MLD. He has no place in the ATD, but in the MLD he's a good jack of all trades, master of none.
As much as I love to rip into opponents. Gotta agree with my co-GM and admit defeat when it comes to checking lines. Yours would be a decent ATD 4th line.
Gotta say, while some of our guys can fight. You mostly won't need Probert. He might be nice to chip in for a game mid-way through if things get out of line. But, by and large, he's just not skilled enough to give regular minutes, especially when penalties can kill you.
Personally, Babich is my favourite of your picks. Definitely one I'm jealous of. Don't be surprised if I take him in a future ATD as a 4th liner or spare. I wouldn't give him less ice time if I was you.
Your shutdown line is, good, but, lets not over state things. They won't neutralize line 1a or 1b, they'll just reduce their effectiveness. As I stated in reply to VCL, as a five man unit, out checking unit will be very effective. The wingers will disrupt your team a lot. Our defencemen are all excellent defensively. And our centers will keep your offensive d-men honest. You have an advantage, but it isn't as big as you claim, and, when you factor in defencemen, it is neutralized completely.
While we have no pure playmakers, we also have no pure goalscorers except maybe Richer. We have a lot of offensive talent. Our players are all passers and shooters, which makes us better at both because we're harder to check.
I think coaching becomes a lot more important in the MLD, and I think a domineering coach becomes an advantage when the skill level drops. Having Tikhonov tell Guy Lafleur to reign it in is stupid. Richer, not so much.
seventieslord
Student Of The Game
Hmmm, 17 goals in 19 games, versus 8 goals in 23 games... please hold, internally taking the era into consideration................. nope, sorry, can't say that Arnott had a playoff that was even close to Payne's individual effort in 1980.
Seriously, you can't think of a better one? Boon is a puck rusher, not a shutdown player. I read accounts saying he was "tough to get around" but he is not a defensive stalwart; that's just not his specialty.
Well, for starters, all six of our top-6 are better players than the players on your third line. Not that that's a dig at all, it should be that way considering we're comparing first and second lines to a third now...
Jack of all trades, yes, but he is a master of a couple: physical play and toughness.
And we're gonna use it to our advantage. You say you have scoring ability on every line and we can't very well play the shutdown line the whole game. that said, the only real elite scoring ability on the roster is on your top two lines. We will shut down either Malecek's or Watson's unit. Your other guys will pop in a couple but they don't scare us. We'll gladly let the Nilsson and Haynes lines trade goals with them.
Agree. He's done, Krusher is in, but that could change if the series gets rough.
Well, thanks, but the thing about Skinner is, he's not just a proven playoff scorer, he's been a money player specifically in the finals. This is his time to shine and he needs the best minutes to be the hero once again. Babich is the ultimate team player and will gladly drop down for the good of the team. Both players have the hustle and physical ability that the first (due to Nilsson) and any fourth line could use, but we're in a big series with a good team and we need some big goals. Consider that change official, too.
Our defensemen are all great defensively too, except Brown. If we're including defensemen to look at defensive abilities of entire units as opposed to forward lines, I don't see how it changes matters. There's no extra advantage there for you. Even if your defensemen were better than ours defensively, it would not be to the degree that our third line trumps both your 3rd and 4th in defensive ability.
Maybe that's their tendency, and the way they play. But none of them have ever been an elite setup man. The best you've got there is Koivu, who has cracked 50 assists twice. The year he had the most (53) it wasn't good for even 20th in the league. there's no elite passer there, and no elite scorer for that matter. (Gelinas' 35-goal season is the apex there).
Obviously if there was significant physical or defensive play in these two lines that wouldn't be too much of an issue, but clearly these lines are meant to be the 3rd and 4th scoring lines and even at the MLD level, I wouldn't count on them for too much offense. All these guys could get by as the least-talented player on a 2nd line but carrying the offensive load has never been their forte in real life and it shouldn't be in a fantasy league of the "next best" wave of all-time players.
They are mostly decent defensively, and there is some physicality there. But they're there to score and I don't think they will. The best aspect of these two lines (and one that you guys tout) is their clutch history in the playoffs. However, I'd hesitate to expect a few goals here and there to translate into a reputation of sustained playoff success. Taking a look at career totals, only Koivu, who goes up 11%, and Deadmarsh, who goes down 5%, have shown over their careers that they maintain their production in the playoffs. Sykora, Gelinas, and Arnott have some big goals, but as a whole they had declines of 15, 27, and 19%. 15 and even 19% aren't anything to be ashamed of. But it certainly doesn't point to a career of "clutch" play.
I hope this isn't my last word on this subject but you never know - we've been very busy over here. In case it is, I need to remind everyone to check Oxford's gas tank - they may be running on fumes right now. Obviously no disrespect is meant towards our prior opponents, but we have been able to dispatch them in just 10 total games. Oxford has taken the full 14. No team has ever won three straight seven game series - if this one goes the distance, Regina takes the deciding game thanks to home ice and less fatigue. But let's not look past games 5 and 6
EagleBelfour
Registered User
The Oxford Blues wins the championship 6 games!
1. John Ross Roach
2. Oldrich Machac
3. Josef Malecek
1. John Ross Roach
2. Oldrich Machac
3. Josef Malecek
VanIslander
A 19-year ATDer on HfBoards
My co-GM nalyd psycho deserves a lion's share of the credit for not only tempering some tendencies of mine but for contributing the key elements in the finals: the Czech stars; and arguing for Roach over our other two top-3 goalie considerations; we were a helluva team in PM discussions. It gelled just like my co-GMing with Hockey Outsider did when the Vees won a previous MLD championship. (Now if only I could get out of the second round of the main ATD playoffs).
seventieslord & vancityluongo deserve a big hand
for a great team.
So does pitseleh for a New York Americans team I was scared of all along (except for a couple of puzzling Soviet picks); and Evil Speaker for the Mincer Rays (except for Marc Savard as top pivot given even the AAA career talents available, and imo Sydor).
And the most underrated team in the entire draft I say, certainly the most potent offense, Hedberg's Tidewater Sharks.
Actually,... the whole dang MLD10 was quality just as the ATD10 had been. Add to that the first full AAA10 draft, and the 10th installment of the all-time draft is proving to be the best ever!
seventieslord & vancityluongo deserve a big hand
for a great team.So does pitseleh for a New York Americans team I was scared of all along (except for a couple of puzzling Soviet picks); and Evil Speaker for the Mincer Rays (except for Marc Savard as top pivot given even the AAA career talents available, and imo Sydor).
And the most underrated team in the entire draft I say, certainly the most potent offense, Hedberg's Tidewater Sharks.
Actually,... the whole dang MLD10 was quality just as the ATD10 had been. Add to that the first full AAA10 draft, and the 10th installment of the all-time draft is proving to be the best ever!
seventieslord
Student Of The Game
Congrats, guys! I wish we could have made it an even better series but them's the breaks. You had an excellent team and with the research you've both done, it's only fitting you should take this title. I hoped the voters would think you ran out of gas after two seven-game series. I thought you barely got by Dayton (if the goaltending matchup was anything other than Ross vs. Burke it may have gone the other way because they were quite strong elsewhere)
As for us... maybe next time. As GBC said and I believe to be true, VI and I are both probably working from the two largest lists among all GMs.
I'm really proud of this MLD roster - aside from my ATD10 roster, it's m favourite yet. We had a healthy combination of ATD "scraps" who dropped far, only to be snagged by us at the right moment (Nilsson, Svehla, Probert, Kipper, Wesley, Skrudland) and some "discoveries" - players who were never taken before, or only taken by Regina before (Gerard, Peters, Skinner, Haynes). Hopefully someone else grabs these guys next time... maybe even in the ATD? We'll see.
Thanks to VCL for all his strategic advice, occasional pick-making, and everything else. I now know the joy of having a co-GM.
Over and out.
As for us... maybe next time. As GBC said and I believe to be true, VI and I are both probably working from the two largest lists among all GMs.
I'm really proud of this MLD roster - aside from my ATD10 roster, it's m favourite yet. We had a healthy combination of ATD "scraps" who dropped far, only to be snagged by us at the right moment (Nilsson, Svehla, Probert, Kipper, Wesley, Skrudland) and some "discoveries" - players who were never taken before, or only taken by Regina before (Gerard, Peters, Skinner, Haynes). Hopefully someone else grabs these guys next time... maybe even in the ATD? We'll see.
Thanks to VCL for all his strategic advice, occasional pick-making, and everything else. I now know the joy of having a co-GM.
Over and out.
Nalyd Psycho
Registered User
WAHOO!
I've finally won one.
I'd like to thank the Academy...
Seriously though, I want to thank VanIslander, without his preparation and knowledge I'd have run out of players by round 5. We made a great team, bringing out the best in both of us to make this team.
I'd like to say Seventieslord and VCL, you both did a fabulous job and I'm honoured to win against you.
I'd like to say to all the other GMs that participated that this MLD was the most competitive yet, everyone fielded a great team.
I'm honoured, thank you.
I've finally won one.
I'd like to thank the Academy...
Seriously though, I want to thank VanIslander, without his preparation and knowledge I'd have run out of players by round 5. We made a great team, bringing out the best in both of us to make this team.
I'd like to say Seventieslord and VCL, you both did a fabulous job and I'm honoured to win against you.
I'd like to say to all the other GMs that participated that this MLD was the most competitive yet, everyone fielded a great team.
I'm honoured, thank you.
Congrats to Nalyd on a well deserved first championship, and to VanI. Helluva team, as evidenced by my lack of ability to exploit flaws after I said I would! 
Thanks to seventies, this team was all you man, I'm really looking forward to continue working with you in teh near future.
Thanks to seventies, this team was all you man, I'm really looking forward to continue working with you in teh near future.
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