seventieslord
Student Of The Game
I had everything written, then accidentally hit the side button on my mouse while carrying my laptop, this caused the browser to flip back... I'm devastated. 
I like Ullman better as a player too. As a linemate for Jagr, Delvecchio is better. Less of a goal-scorer, more of a playmaker, more unselfish, more low-key, more like Francis, who proved he was the best linemate for Jagr.
Must be just a coincidence....
It got pretty heated. I'm proud that I won, just not proud of the permanent record that exists.
Check out that D - Chelios, Pilote, bouchard, Pronovost, Flaman, Gerard, Mohns, Hall... in a 16 team draft!
I actually picked Ullman. At the time he wasn't what I needed but I couldn't resist the value. He was the 5th forward I took, but the 4th center, after Beliveau, Carbonneau, and Gilmour. I announced he'd take the second line spot, bumping down Killer and Carbo, but it was heavily criticized. So I dumped him immediately for a swap of picks. What did i say about him? I think I remember touting him as a good two way guy.
Speaking of his SHG, hockey-reference has SHG totals for the last 12 years of his NHL career, and he had 5 during that time. I think it's safe to say that, generally, Ullman was a solid player at both ends at even strength, but the toughest defensive assignments, like killing penalties, were usually handled by the players who specialized in that area.
Hey, whoa. that was just one Eddie Shack quote. That's one guy, making a comment at one particular time. It's a major extrapolation to go from Shack saying he's the hardest working man in hockey, to declaring him the hardest working player of his era.
I just finished reading Ken Dryden's The Game yesterday. Great book. He gives frank opinions on all of his current teammates, and a few past ones, including Pete. He described him as a party animal, the team's social glue guy. He sounded a bit aloof to me. But Dryden did not convey this in a negative way. he actually said that when Mahovlich was traded, the dressing room felt gutted. Anyway, the point of this is that I think his laissez-faire attitude was an off-ice thing, not on-ice.
Neither. I think Vaive is a bargain basement 2nd liner, and Secord would be a reach as a regular second liner. He should be a fourth liner who can fill in on the 2nd in spurts. He's tougher than Vaive, but not as great a scorer which drops him just below the line separating gritty scorers from scoring tough guys, in an ATD context. Bill Watters, in that Captains book, said that the Vaive for Secord trade was one of the worst the Leafs ever made. Still, don't put too much separation between them. Vaive only topped 40 goals one more time than Secord did. And he only made the top-10 one more time as well. Secord's injuries were really his downfall.
First of all, Primeau was never dominant.
Recchi did benefit from playing with guys like that, but still more often than not, in his prime he was the driving force behind his team's offense. I can't say for sure how much he actually played with Lemieux. but when he got traded to Philly in 1991-92, he maintained his PPG average that he had in Pittsburgh, then exceeded it in both of the next two seasons. When he led the league in assists in 1999-2000, who was his dominant centre? Daymond Langkow? or 55 games of Eric Lindros?
As fo his two-way play, all I can tell you is he's still active and we've been able to watch him for 20 years now. He's alway been one of the league's smartest players and works hard. He has never been called soft or one-dimensional. I went back to 1997-98 on nhl.com and checked out his SHTOI/GP and found that from 97-98 to 99-00, he averaged 1:36 per game killing penalties. Just like a guy like Hossa, who you compared Ullman's defensive ability to. Over the next three seasons it dropped off but still stayed over a minute. He even killed penalties for 2:37 per game in 05-06. This is a guy with above-average defensive ability.
Yep, it was 03-04.
Maybe in your bizarro world he had a shorter career.
According to my material, he played 304 more games than Mahovlich. On a per-game basis, he actually scored half as many SHG as the Little M. (0.0205 to 0.0109) 2.5% of his goals were shorthanded; 6.6% of Pete's were. Pete's the better defensive player.
That may be true. However, just like I can't take a bunch of moden players and claim them to be a bigger, faster team that can handle an 82-game schedule, out of context against older players, and I can't take a bunch of older players and just claim them all to be tougher and able to play 45 minutes a game, I think it's unfair to automatically brand an O6 player defensively responsible. I'm more concerned with how big, fast, tough, or skilled a player was in relation to the other players of his time.
The quote was actually referring to his first season in Toronto. I can dictate out the whole paragraph at your request
Vaive was not a backchecker... this wasn't his thing. I think this is just a case of equating toughness with defensive play. A lot of times, the two are linked; a lot of times they're not.
Defensively, yes, I agree. Offensively? When were any of those guys elite offensively? When did any of them come close to the top of the leaderboard in goals, assists, or points, in the regular season or playoffs? (aside from Primeau's crazy 2004 playoff) St. Louis has been top-10 twice in the regular season and top-5 in playoff goals twice. Bourne led a cup winner in points. Marshall, for 4 straight years led his league in scoring in the regular season or the playoffs.
Your 4th line is very big, tough, and physical. That's all I'm willing to give it an edge in.
I personally think Ramsay is the top defensive forward ever, because I think the numbers show him to be better than Gainey, who everyone else thinks is the best ever. I know I'm in the minority. You're definitely overestimating Ullman. Risebrough I can see. You're overrating Vaive and Hawerchuk, and definitely underrating Mahovlich and Recchi.
You mean like the argument overpass made? Why didn't you like it? I loved it. Different tastes, I guess.
I like Ullman better as a player too. As a linemate for Jagr, Delvecchio is better. Less of a goal-scorer, more of a playmaker, more unselfish, more low-key, more like Francis, who proved he was the best linemate for Jagr.
Again with the modern analogies, I'm picturing a center equivalent of Marian Hossa. Hossa has always been known as a two-way player, but no one ever really raves about his "defensive play". I'd imagine Ullman to be similar. He killed penalties, forechecked and did his job, but wasn't a noticable defensive standout like a Carbonneau or anything.
I've tried looking up SH goals from Ullman to prove that he penalty killed often, instead I come across the Leafs message board and a ATD on that board. Is that moderator, with the username seventieslord, and the same avy, by any chance, happen to be you?
Must be just a coincidence....
It got pretty heated. I'm proud that I won, just not proud of the permanent record that exists.
Check out that D - Chelios, Pilote, bouchard, Pronovost, Flaman, Gerard, Mohns, Hall... in a 16 team draft!
I actually picked Ullman. At the time he wasn't what I needed but I couldn't resist the value. He was the 5th forward I took, but the 4th center, after Beliveau, Carbonneau, and Gilmour. I announced he'd take the second line spot, bumping down Killer and Carbo, but it was heavily criticized. So I dumped him immediately for a swap of picks. What did i say about him? I think I remember touting him as a good two way guy.
Speaking of his SHG, hockey-reference has SHG totals for the last 12 years of his NHL career, and he had 5 during that time. I think it's safe to say that, generally, Ullman was a solid player at both ends at even strength, but the toughest defensive assignments, like killing penalties, were usually handled by the players who specialized in that area.
Of course it's slightly an exaggeration, but that doesn't mean my point doesn't still stand.
Yet, I really fail to see how you can call Mahovlich a great two-way player, and not give Ullman credit for that. I know we were comparing Mahovlich to Hawerchuk, but if you don't want to consider the hardest working player of his era as a very good/elite player in his own end,
Hey, whoa. that was just one Eddie Shack quote. That's one guy, making a comment at one particular time. It's a major extrapolation to go from Shack saying he's the hardest working man in hockey, to declaring him the hardest working player of his era.
I just finished reading Ken Dryden's The Game yesterday. Great book. He gives frank opinions on all of his current teammates, and a few past ones, including Pete. He described him as a party animal, the team's social glue guy. He sounded a bit aloof to me. But Dryden did not convey this in a negative way. he actually said that when Mahovlich was traded, the dressing room felt gutted. Anyway, the point of this is that I think his laissez-faire attitude was an off-ice thing, not on-ice.
Neither. I think Vaive is a bargain basement 2nd liner, and Secord would be a reach as a regular second liner. He should be a fourth liner who can fill in on the 2nd in spurts. He's tougher than Vaive, but not as great a scorer which drops him just below the line separating gritty scorers from scoring tough guys, in an ATD context. Bill Watters, in that Captains book, said that the Vaive for Secord trade was one of the worst the Leafs ever made. Still, don't put too much separation between them. Vaive only topped 40 goals one more time than Secord did. And he only made the top-10 one more time as well. Secord's injuries were really his downfall.
First of all, Primeau was never dominant.
Recchi did benefit from playing with guys like that, but still more often than not, in his prime he was the driving force behind his team's offense. I can't say for sure how much he actually played with Lemieux. but when he got traded to Philly in 1991-92, he maintained his PPG average that he had in Pittsburgh, then exceeded it in both of the next two seasons. When he led the league in assists in 1999-2000, who was his dominant centre? Daymond Langkow? or 55 games of Eric Lindros?
As fo his two-way play, all I can tell you is he's still active and we've been able to watch him for 20 years now. He's alway been one of the league's smartest players and works hard. He has never been called soft or one-dimensional. I went back to 1997-98 on nhl.com and checked out his SHTOI/GP and found that from 97-98 to 99-00, he averaged 1:36 per game killing penalties. Just like a guy like Hossa, who you compared Ullman's defensive ability to. Over the next three seasons it dropped off but still stayed over a minute. He even killed penalties for 2:37 per game in 05-06. This is a guy with above-average defensive ability.
Yep, it was 03-04.
Maybe in your bizarro world he had a shorter career.
According to my material, he played 304 more games than Mahovlich. On a per-game basis, he actually scored half as many SHG as the Little M. (0.0205 to 0.0109) 2.5% of his goals were shorthanded; 6.6% of Pete's were. Pete's the better defensive player.That may be true. However, just like I can't take a bunch of moden players and claim them to be a bigger, faster team that can handle an 82-game schedule, out of context against older players, and I can't take a bunch of older players and just claim them all to be tougher and able to play 45 minutes a game, I think it's unfair to automatically brand an O6 player defensively responsible. I'm more concerned with how big, fast, tough, or skilled a player was in relation to the other players of his time.
The quote was actually referring to his first season in Toronto. I can dictate out the whole paragraph at your request
Vaive was not a backchecker... this wasn't his thing. I think this is just a case of equating toughness with defensive play. A lot of times, the two are linked; a lot of times they're not.
Defensively, yes, I agree. Offensively? When were any of those guys elite offensively? When did any of them come close to the top of the leaderboard in goals, assists, or points, in the regular season or playoffs? (aside from Primeau's crazy 2004 playoff) St. Louis has been top-10 twice in the regular season and top-5 in playoff goals twice. Bourne led a cup winner in points. Marshall, for 4 straight years led his league in scoring in the regular season or the playoffs.
Your 4th line is very big, tough, and physical. That's all I'm willing to give it an edge in.
I personally think Ramsay is the top defensive forward ever, because I think the numbers show him to be better than Gainey, who everyone else thinks is the best ever. I know I'm in the minority. You're definitely overestimating Ullman. Risebrough I can see. You're overrating Vaive and Hawerchuk, and definitely underrating Mahovlich and Recchi.
You mean like the argument overpass made? Why didn't you like it? I loved it. Different tastes, I guess.
