ATD #10, Bob Cole Quarterfinals. Pittsburgh Penguins (7) vs Buffalo Bisons (2)

[MXD]

Played on outside rinks.

Pittsburgh Penguins​

GM: camperjr & Gagner4God
Coach: Pat Burns

Steve Shutt - Henri Richard - Dino Ciccarelli
Ken Hodge Sr. - Vincent Damphousse - Adam Graves
Bob Gainey - Keith Acton - George Armstrong (C)
Eddie Shack - Chris Drury - Bill Guerin
extras: Tony Granato, Jason Spezza

Brian Leetch - Kevin Lowe (A)
Adam Foote - Larry Murphy
Bucko McDonald (A) - Ian Turnbull
extra: Marty McSorley

Patrick Roy
Andy Moog

Power play units:
PP1: Steve Shutt - Henri Richard - Dino Ciccarelli - Adam Graves - Brain Leetch
PP2: Ken Hodge Sr. - Vincent Damphousse - Eddie Shack - Larry Murphy - Chris Drury

Penalty killing units:
PK1: Bob Gainey - George Armstrong - Adam Foote - Kevin Lowe
PK2: Chris Duruy - Henri Richard - Bucko McDonald - Larry Murphy



VS

Buffalo Bisons​

GM: pappyline
Coach: Bob Johnson

Doug Bentley - Stan Mikita (C) - Bryan Hextall Sr.
Roy Conacher - Ulf Nilsson - Anders Hedberg
Don Marshall - Fleming Mackell - Murray Balfour
Johnny Wilson - Orland Kurtenbach - Rene Robert
extras: Ab McDonald, Ron Stewart

Black Jack Stewart - Tim Horton (A)
Carl Brewer (A)-Neil Colville
Lars-Erik Sjoberg-Doug Barkley
extra: Pat Egan

Harry Lumley
Roy Worters

Power play units:
PP1: Doug Bentley - Stan Mikita - Bryan Hextall - Lars-Erik Sjoberg - Rene Robert
PP2: Roy Conacher - Ulf Nilsson - Anders Hedberg - Carl Brewer - Doug Barkley

Penalty killing units:
PK1: Johnny Wilson - Don Marshall - Black Jack Stewart - Tim Horton
PK2: Fleming Mackell - Murray Balfour - Carl Brewer - Neil Colville

Click to read more...

 

[pappyline]

Camperjr, nice team. I expect a hard fought series & may the best team win.

 

[seventieslord]

If camper pulls this one off, it will be because St. Patrick stole the show and because Pittsburgh's excellent PK is airtight.

 

[camperjr]

Camperjr, nice team. I expect a hard fought series & may the best team win.

Same to you. The teams are so close. I think this one is going to be one 5 on 5, rather than on the special teams. Good luck pappy, and may the best pervaile

 

[God Bless Canada]

Welcome to the ATD, camper. Your initiation? A match-up with the defending champions.

camper does have a few things going for him. Excellent leadership and character is the first thing. The Penguins have some of the best leaders ever, and a lot of guys capable of wearing a letter. They also have an edge in goal, one of the biggest that we will see in the ATD.

If the Penguins are going to succeed, they will need to contain the overwhelming speed of the Bisons. It's the defining trait of a pappy team: outstanding speed on all four lines. Can Lowe, Foote and especially Murphy withstand the speed? The other trait is scoring throughout the line-up. The days of pappy trotting out four offensive lines are over. But everyone in the bottom two lines is capable of providing offence. That'll be a challenge.

It's a good thing the Penguins have the strong penalty killing, because the PK guys will be pressed into action. A lot.

Pittsburgh has the edge in goal, but I don't think Lumley will be facing a ton of rubber. He'll see a lot of Dino and Shutt in front of the net when that first line breaks through, but they'll have a hard time getting through. That's an awesome defence for Buffalo. Those 60s Leafs teams are regarded by many as the best defensive team ever. pappy has their two best defencemen. And he has Black Jack Stewart, one of the best defensive defencemen ever. I don't think it's a stretch to say that pappy has two of the top 15 defensive defencemen ever. On his first pairing.

I don't know if we'll see a more even match-up for coaching. Burns and Johnson are pretty close on my rankings. To top it off, they're on teams that are tailor made. Burns has his grinding, defensive-minded, high-character team. Johnson has his fast-skating, highly-skilled, high-scoring team. But I don't think Johnson ever had a defence like that. (I can't think of a better coach for Brewer than Johnson, either).

I think the biggest variable, and the biggest question, is whether Pittsburgh can score enough goals to win this series.

 

[pappyline]

I think GBC covered it well but I will add a few comments.

Bisons have the speed, goalscoring & hard rock defense to win this series. Pittsburgh has some nice defensive forwards but that is not enough. They have the edge in goaltending but Roy can;t do it by himself. IMO. Lumley is not that far behind Roy. He played 16 years in the originakl 6. Won a cup, a vezina & 2 1st team AS's despite playing on a lot of bad teams.

Nice effort Camper in your first ATD but you are not there yet,

 

[seventieslord]

Lumley, not far behind Roy? I remember you saying you had Brodeur ranked 110th on your HOH preliminary list, too. What do you have against guys who played past 1970, anyway?

 

[camperjr]

I think GBC covered it well but I will add a few comments.

Bisons have the speed, goalscoring & hard rock defense to win this series. Pittsburgh has some nice defensive forwards but that is not enough. They have the edge in goaltending but Roy can;t do it by himself. IMO. Lumley is not that far behind Roy. He played 16 years in the originakl 6. Won a cup, a vezina & 2 1st team AS's despite playing on a lot of bad teams.

Nice effort Camper in your first ATD but you are not there yet,

I admit, I took to many high picks to get a good defensive line. But that means this is going to be be a battle of seconds lines. Hodge, Graves and scoring, though I do feel yours will over power us. That means this series is going to be won on the defensive and goaltender. I have a slight lead in the goaltender with Roy holding down the fort.

 

[pappyline]

Lumley, not far behind Roy? I remember you saying you had Brodeur ranked 110th on your HOH preliminary list, too. What do you have against guys who played past 1970, anyway?

Nothing, I have several guys on my team that played in the 70's. For sure Roy is ahead of Lumley but I do think Lumley deserves more respect.

As far as Brodeur being 110 on my original submission. Yep I did it, I admitted it, and will correct it when I do my revised list. Brodeur should be about 50 spots higher. I think everybody made some glaring mistakes on their HOH preliminary list. Don't think it is appropriate to bring them up again here when they were already hashed out at the time.

 

[seventieslord]

Nothing, I have several guys on my team that played in the 70's. For sure Roy is ahead of Lumley but I do think Lumley deserves more respect.

As far as Brodeur being 110 on my original submission. Yep I did it, I admitted it, and will correct it when I do my revised list. Brodeur should be about 50 spots higher. I think everybody made some glaring mistakes on their HOH preliminary list. Don't think it is appropriate to bring them up again here when they were already hashed out at the time.

No problem. I just had to ask.

I'm actually harder on Brodeur than possibly anyone but you.

 

[MXD]

Nothing, I have several guys on my team that played in the 70's. For sure Roy is ahead of Lumley but I do think Lumley deserves more respect.

As far as Brodeur being 110 on my original submission. Yep I did it, I admitted it, and will correct it when I do my revised list. Brodeur should be about 50 spots higher. I think everybody made some glaring mistakes on their HOH preliminary list. Don't think it is appropriate to bring them up again here when they were already hashed out at the time.

Wow, I had Bert Olmstead higher than you had Brodeur (yes, I had Olmstead in my Top-100). My motto was : Everybody needs a Olmstead.

Roy and Lumley are IMO as far as possible, as far as no.1 goalies in this draft are concerned. Maybe the biggest gap in goaltending in round 1.

Off course, all things and GM's being equal, Lumley will have a better team ahead of him than Roy (in ATD's), but that's not the point I wanted to make.

 

[pappyline]

Wow, I had Bert Olmstead higher than you had Brodeur (yes, I had Olmstead in my Top-100). My motto was : Everybody needs a Olmstead.

Roy and Lumley are IMO as far as possible, as far as no.1 goalies in this draft are concerned. Maybe the biggest gap in goaltending in round 1.

Off course, all things and GM's being equal, Lumley will have a better team ahead of him than Roy (in ATD's), but that's not the point I wanted to make.

I don't know. I think the gap between Dryden/Holmes & Hall/Belfour is bigger. I think Lumley gets hurt by playing on bad teams. Beating out Sawchuk & Plante in 54 & 55 for
1st team AS while playing for mediocre Leaf teams was an incredible accomplishment IMO. Unfortunately Sawchuk beat him out for the Wing job in the early 50's & Lumley missed out on the accolades associated with being a goalie on a dynasty team.

No question Roy is by far the better goalie here but Lumley is certainly not out of place as a starter in a 28 team draft.

 

[raleh]

I admit, I took to many high picks to get a good defensive line. But that means this is going to be be a battle of seconds lines. Hodge, Graves and scoring, though I do feel yours will over power us. That means this series is going to be won on the defensive and goaltender. I have a slight lead in the goaltender with Roy holding down the fort. I also think our defensive is close to. In the end I think this series will go to 7, but ultimatly I'll lose for lack of scoring.

Camper, I know you're playing against the defending champ, and I know it's tough coming into this thing and trying to argue your case against a guy who's seen it all, but give yourself some credit.

You've got an insane penalty kill. The best checking line money can buy, and one of the top 3 golies in league history. You're going to win a few games based on that alone. Never admit you think you'll lose in this thing. You did everything you could do and you drafted the guys you wanted, so I think you should give yourself and the team you put together some respect. It's a great team.

I'm not sure if saying "slight" lead in goaltending is because you actually believe it or because pappy said it. I'll be the first to admit I'd be intimidated going up against pappy in this kind of thing, especially if I didn't have the co-gm I have. And quite often I take things he says as truth, but you're doing yourself a disservice in this case by giving in to what he says. Judging on when you took Roy, there's no way you think he's only slightly better than Lumley. And you shouldn't. Many voters, me among them, think this is the biggest goaltending mismatch in the playoffs. Use that to your advantage. Your goalie is going to outplay Buffalo's goalie in EVERY SINGLE GAME. You can guarantee it. No matter how good the Bison offense is, they're not going to be lighting you up.

Team's have won playoff series before based on this. To beat this Buffalo team, who is certainly more balanced than yours (rightfully so considering it's your first go round), you're going to need 7 games of out of this world goal tending. There are only, in my opinion 4 teams that might get that in this draft, and those are the guys with Sawchuk, Hasek, Roy, and Plante. You have one of them. That means you have a shot. So make a case for your boys!

 

[seventieslord]

LOL, I'm kinda intervening here, discussing a player not in this series that I'm playing against... but Sawchuk is not a guarantee to give 7 games of out of this world goaltending. His record has its spots.

 

[camperjr]

Camper, I know you're playing against the defending champ, and I know it's tough coming into this thing and trying to argue your case against a guy who's seen it all, but give yourself some credit.

You've got an insane penalty kill. The best checking line money can buy, and one of the top 3 golies in league history. You're going to win a few games based on that alone. Never admit you think you'll lose in this thing. You did everything you could do and you drafted the guys you wanted, so I think you should give yourself and the team you put together some respect. It's a great team.

I'm not sure if saying "slight" lead in goaltending is because you actually believe it or because pappy said it. I'll be the first to admit I'd be intimidated going up against pappy in this kind of thing, especially if I didn't have the co-gm I have. And quite often I take things he says as truth, but you're doing yourself a disservice in this case by giving in to what he says. Judging on when you took Roy, there's no way you think he's only slightly better than Lumley. And you shouldn't. Many voters, me among them, think this is the biggest goaltending mismatch in the playoffs. Use that to your advantage. Your goalie is going to outplay Buffalo's goalie in EVERY SINGLE GAME. You can guarantee it. No matter how good the Bison offense is, they're not going to be lighting you up.

Team's have won playoff series before based on this. To beat this Buffalo team, who is certainly more balanced than yours (rightfully so considering it's your first go round), you're going to need 7 games of out of this world goal tending. There are only, in my opinion 4 teams that might get that in this draft, and those are the guys with Sawchuk, Hasek, Roy, and Plante. You have one of them. That means you have a shot. So make a case for your boys!

I am very blunt when I talk. I'm a realist. As for saying Roy has a slight lead, it was suppose to be sarcastic, though it might not of sounded that way. Maybe I sould not of said he was going to win, but I do believe this is going to go to seven games, i without a dought in my mind. As for the winner, it's up to the voters

My Third line cancels out there first line, so I believe this sereis is going to be one by Defense and 2nd'ary scoring, I've said this all along. Pappy, wins in offensie, but I feel we have the better defense, witch means my goalies might be able to get away with a few mistakes, though I dought he'll make many. Though Roy is considered by many to be the best goalie ever, me being one of them, I don't think he can win 4 games by himself. That means my 1st line is going to have to act like one. As long as Roy can keep the game close I feel we have a decent shot at challeging for the series win and knocking off the defending champ.

Good Luck Pappy

 

[pappyline]

I am very blunt when I talk. I'm a realist. As for saying Roy has a slight lead, it was suppose to be sarcastic, though it might not of sounded that way. Maybe I sould not of said he was going to win, but I do believe this is going to go to seven games, i without a dought in my mind. As for the winner, it's up to the voters

My Third line cancels out there first line, so I believe this sereis is going to be one by Defense and 2nd'ary scoring, I've said this all along. Pappy, wins in offensie, but I feel we have the better defense, witch means my goalies might be able to get away with a few mistakes, though I dought he'll make many. Though Roy is considered by many to be the best goalie ever, me being one of them, I don't think he can win 4 games by himself. That means my 1st line is going to have to act like one. As long as Roy can keep the game close I feel we have a decent shot at challeging for the series win and knocking off the defending champ.

Good Luck Pappy

Good luck to you too camper. A great effort from a 1st time ATD GM

I am not too worried about matching lines but I am the home team & will keep my first line away from your third as much as possible. Even if you do shut my first line down, I have enough scoring on my other lines to make up the gap.

You do have a nice checking line. Personally, I am not a believer in put together lines that can only score or only check. I prefer two way types that can fill both roles.

As far as team defense, I think I have edge there also but it is close. My top 4 of Horton-Stewart-Brewer-Colville are physical & skilled. Leetch & Murphy are valid top 4 guys in an ATD but Lowe & Foote are IMO lower tier top 4 guys. Regarding fowards, you do have the Gainey line but I think the rest of my guys match up pretty well defensively plus they can score too.

Of course, you have me beat in goal & roy may steal you a game. However, having Lumley in net certainly doesn't handicap the Bisons. Horton, Stewart, & Brewer will effectively clear garbage scorers like Ciccerelli, Graves & Shutt from the net. Also, I am not sure if these guys will get the puck that much. Richard is your best playmaking centre.

I got to put in one more plug for Lumley as I don't think he gets the respect he deserves.. I often don't agree with "Ultimate Hockey but their comments on Lumley are bang on.

"Lumley was underrated. He was unceremoniously dumped by detroit in the early 50's, left to shoulder some awful Hawk squads. Yet he continued to put up numbers comparable to those of the NHL's goaltending elite.....A Lifetime goals-against average of under 3.00 with a winning percentage over.500 makes him one of the all-time overachievers in NHL history."

 

[Hockey Outsider]

Why Pittsburgh will win

1) Buffalo's second line. I'm skeptical about Nilsson and Hedberg; they dominated the WHA but frankly didn't accomplish much at the NHL level. Nilsson joined the NHL at age 28 (presumably at/near his prime) and peaked at just 66 points in his best season. I realize he battled injuries but even if you pro-rate his stats, he was on pace to be only a 90-something point scorer, in his best year, and that was in the high-scoring early 1980s. Hedberg played five full NHL seasons and never topped 80 pts, also in the high-scoring 1980s. I'm not convinced that these players were great scorers at the NHL level.

2) Goaltending. Camper, sell your team! Your advantage in goaltending is more than a "slight lead". Roy is a consensus top-five goalie all-time, and many have him first. Lumley, while underrated, is a lower-tier starter (somewhere around 20-25th all-time) and his playoff resume simply doesn't come close to Roy's. Saint Patrick will steal at least one game for the Penguins.

Why Buffalo will win

1) Lack of offensive catalysts. Several of Pittsburgh's top forwards only had success while playing with elite scorers. Hodge, Graves and Shutt were all very good players, but I believe they accomplished relatively little (offensively, at least) once they stopped playing with Orr, Gretzky and Lafleur, respectively. The Penguins lack an elite scorer that will maximize the value of these wingers. (Damphousse was consistently good, but was never a top ten scorer. There are even question marks about Richard -- he very rarely had the burden of being his team's #1 scorer. Will he success thanks to getting additional ice time, or will he wilt under the pressure of being the main focus of his opponents defense?)

2) Superior defense. What more can be said about Buffalo's top defense pair? I agree with GBC; Buffalo was arguably two of the top ten defensive blueliners of all-time. This is especially important because it should help reduce Pittsburgh's advantage in goal. Carl Brewer is a very strong #3 defender and Neil Collville is an interesting #4 defender -- he earned two spots on the all-star team as a centre, and one as a defenseman, which highlights his versatility. Murphy had a long and steady career but, in terms of peak value, Buffalo likely has three of the top four defensemen in this series.

 

[MXD]

I would consider Roy in the Top-3 and Lumley in the Top-28, but hey, each is entitled to his evaluation...

I would also say that the Bisons D-Men are extremely underwhelming on the offensive side of the game.

 

[pappyline]

I have Roy as #5 & lumley about #20.

When you talk about Bisons defense not being good offensively, not sure what you mean. They all peaked at a time when Dmen didn't join the offense that much & all put up reasonable numbers in their respective eras. They could all move the puck well and were all top notch in their own end.

 

[MXD]

I have Roy as #5 & lumley about #20.

When you talk about Bisons defense not being good offensively, not sure what you mean. They all peaked at a time when Dmen didn't join the offense that much & all put up reasonable numbers in their respective eras. They could all move the puck well and were all top notch in their own end.

Don't worry, I'd really like to use that kind of argument with a guy that was twice the goalscoring leader amongst D-Mens as a sub, but I'm afraid it doesn't quite work that way...

 

[pappyline]

Why Pittsburgh will win

1) Buffalo's second line. I'm skeptical about Nilsson and Hedberg; they dominated the WHA but frankly didn't accomplish much at the NHL level. Nilsson joined the NHL at age 28 (presumably at/near his prime) and peaked at just 66 points in his best season. I realize he battled injuries but even if you pro-rate his stats, he was on pace to be only a 90-something point scorer, in his best year, and that was in the high-scoring early 1980s. Hedberg played five full NHL seasons and never topped 80 pts, also in the high-scoring 1980s. I'm not convinced that these players were great scorers at the NHL level.

2) Goaltending. Camper, sell your team! Your advantage in goaltending is more than a "slight lead". Roy is a consensus top-five goalie all-time, and many have him first. Lumley, while underrated, is a lower-tier starter (somewhere around 20-25th all-time) and his playoff resume simply doesn't come close to Roy's. Saint Patrick will steal at least one game for the Penguins.

Why Buffalo will win

1) Lack of offensive catalysts. Several of Pittsburgh's top forwards only had success while playing with elite scorers. Hodge, Graves and Shutt were all very good players, but I believe they accomplished relatively little (offensively, at least) once they stopped playing with Orr, Gretzky and Lafleur, respectively. The Penguins lack an elite scorer that will maximize the value of these wingers. (Damphousse was consistently good, but was never a top ten scorer. There are even question marks about Richard -- he very rarely had the burden of being his team's #1 scorer. Will he success thanks to getting additional ice time, or will he wilt under the pressure of being the main focus of his opponents defense?)

2) Superior defense. What more can be said about Buffalo's top defense pair? I agree with GBC; Buffalo was arguably two of the top ten defensive blueliners of all-time. This is especially important because it should help reduce Pittsburgh's advantage in goal. Carl Brewer is a very strong #3 defender and Neil Collville is an interesting #4 defender -- he earned two spots on the all-star team as a centre, and one as a defenseman, which highlights his versatility. Murphy had a long and steady career but, in terms of peak value, Buffalo likely has three of the top four defensemen in this series.

Good analysis but I think you are a little too hard on Nilsson & Hedberg. I have been expecting those type of comments. Nillsson's best NHL year was his first before he got injured. That same year Hedberg tied Epo for the Rangers point lead. Nillsson never really recovered from his injury that first year. Plus they had to play a different style with the Shero coached Rangers. I think they adjusted quite well. IMO, they would have put up big points if healthy & playing for a run & gun team like Edmonton.

Anyway, in this series, if you compare second lines, I think the Bisons come out on top.

 

[pappyline]

Don't worry, I'd really like to use that kind of argument with a guy that was twice the goalscoring leader amongst D-Mens as a sub, but I'm afraid it doesn't quite work that way...

OK, I give up. Who are you talking about?

 

[vancityluongo]

LOL, I'm kinda intervening here, discussing a player not in this series that I'm playing against... but Sawchuk is not a guarantee to give 7 games of out of this world goaltending. His record has its spots.

PFFFFT.

Anyways, I really like this series, as camper built one of my favourite teams.

For your first draft, you really made only one mistake; Spezza, and you did a greta job fixing that up. Your checking line is solid, you have one of the best goalies ever. Agreed with what raleh said.

I remember in my first draft, I was up against GBC, and I pretty much gave up because I was convinced/knew I wouldn't be able to beat him.

The difference here is, even though you're against the defending champ, you have a very solid team. My first draft was also in a 28 team draft (ATD 7), but that team would lose in 4 or 5 games to yours.

 

[seventieslord]

PFFFFT.

There, now we've each said "pfft" once during this process. It's healthy!

All I'm saying is "guaranteed" is such a strong word. Sawchuk had such a long career and such a short peak. If you can convince voters that the Sawchuk you have, is the 1950-1955 one only, then you're laughin'. And obviously you pick a top-6 goalie for a reason. You get an advantage from it.

Speaking of his playoff history, I see discussion is cooling down here. I didn't really get a weekend due to the familiy issues going on, and managed to sneak in an argument here or there. But I may not get around to doing it. The time it would take coupled with the low number of people that would get to absorb it, just may not be worth it.

And yes, I'm aware this is the Pittsburgh/Buffalo thread. Any other comments can be directed to the Regina/Winnipeg thread. I take the blame for this mini-hijack. Don't fault vcl for coming in here and responding...

 

[MXD]

OK, I give up. Who are you talking about?

Glen Harmon.