Article: It's time for Kenny to go

[Henkka]

Well, it this offseason was supposed to be any confirmation that the TDL signaled that this team is in re-build, this summer has been the exact opposite.

We pursued Daley, Girardi, Hainsey, and Vanek. We have 32 and 34 year old Booth and Parenteau coming here on a PTO. One of our best young forwards will be playing in a league where trying to dangle through an entire team is encouraged, and dumping the puck gets you benched. When he needs to do the opposite most times. We are pretty much going out of our way to try and give a roster spot that could go to Bertuzzi or Svechnikov to a random washed up vet.

Honestly, we are so scared to tear it down and rebuild, but what we are doing is even worse. We falsely believe we are still a playoff team and we are just delaying that difficult rebuild thing down the line even further. At least the teams that try and rebuild and fail are at least picking a direction and trying to play the odds.

I disagree with your opinion.

But everyone can have their own imagination or opinion of our team state.

 

[Frk It]

I disagree with your opinion.

But everyone can have their own imagination or opinion of our team state.

Which parts? Do you still think there is a stealth tank?

 

[Shaman464]

He's inferring why the KHL will be bad for AA's development. Dangle through everyone and non-NHL system hockey.

Ah I misread that. Yeah the KHL will be a disaster for AA both short term and long term.

Which re-building teams have you seen offer PTO's to 30+ year olds recently?

From 2015 (source: https://thehockeywriters.com/the-hockey-writers-2015-pto-tracker/):

Arizona:
Corey Potter, D, 31
Previous Team: Calgary Flames
6 games, 0 goals, 0 assists, 7.5% CF%Rel (32.2% ZSO%Rel)


Joey Crabb, RW, 32
Previous Team: Hartford Wolf Pack (AHL)
66 games, 12 goals, 16 assists

Patrick Dwyer, RW, 32
Previous Team: Carolina Hurricanes
71 games, 5 goals, 7 assists, -9.3% CF%Rel (-7.7% ZSO%Rel)


Calgary:

Douglas Murray, D, 35
Previous Team: Cologne Sharks (DEL)
8 games, 0 goals, 1 assist

Colorado:

Curtis Glencross, C, 32
Previous Team: Washington Capitals / Calgary Flames
71 games, 13 goals, 22 assists, -1.1 CF%Rel (-8.8% ZSO%Rel)

New Jersey:

Lee Stempniak, RW, 32
Previous Team: New York Rangers / Winnipeg Jets
71 games, 15 goals, 13 assists

Toronto:

Curtis Glencross, C, 32
Previous Team: Washington Capitals / Calgary Flames
71 games, 13 goals, 22 assists, -1.1 CF%Rel (-8.8% ZSO%Rel)


Brad Boyes, RW, 33
Previous Team: Florida Panthers
78 games, 14 goals, 24 assists, 0.8% CF%Rel (0% ZSO%Rel)




That enough? Because I can go to last year and 2014 and list many more.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

I disagree with your opinion.

But everyone can have their own imagination or opinion of our team state.

That's what I don't quite understand about the opinion of some people who support Holland, or are "anti-tank" or whatever you want to call them.

How would you describe Holland's current strategy and his success at it? Serious question.

Because he's clearly not doing a tear down rebuild. He's stated that his goal is to make the playoffs next season. So he's got the team maxed out at the cap in an apparent attempt to make the playoffs. But I've also heard his supporters say the Wings are still going to be a bottom 5 team next season so what are we "pro-tankers" complaining about.

If Holland's goal is to make the playoffs and some of his supporters think the team is going to be bottom 5 then Holland is still doing a terrible job, no?

Or so people believe he is lying about wanting to make the playoffs?

I personally think they should be doing a more aggressive rebuild, but that aside I don't quite understand a scenario that makes Holland seem like a good GM right now. Unless his goal was to put together a maxed out cap team that will likely finish not too far outside the playoffs if everything goes well.

I'm not being a smartass, I just want to have a conversation that's not binary like most things here quickly become. (Holland sucks! Tanking is for losers!)

 

[Frk It]

Ah I misread that. Yeah the KHL will be a disaster for AA both short term and long term.



From 2015 (source: https://thehockeywriters.com/the-hockey-writers-2015-pto-tracker/):

Arizona:
Corey Potter, D, 31
Previous Team: Calgary Flames
6 games, 0 goals, 0 assists, 7.5% CF%Rel (32.2% ZSO%Rel)


Joey Crabb, RW, 32
Previous Team: Hartford Wolf Pack (AHL)
66 games, 12 goals, 16 assists

Patrick Dwyer, RW, 32
Previous Team: Carolina Hurricanes
71 games, 5 goals, 7 assists, -9.3% CF%Rel (-7.7% ZSO%Rel)


Calgary:

Douglas Murray, D, 35
Previous Team: Cologne Sharks (DEL)
8 games, 0 goals, 1 assist

Colorado:

Curtis Glencross, C, 32
Previous Team: Washington Capitals / Calgary Flames
71 games, 13 goals, 22 assists, -1.1 CF%Rel (-8.8% ZSO%Rel)

New Jersey:

Lee Stempniak, RW, 32
Previous Team: New York Rangers / Winnipeg Jets
71 games, 15 goals, 13 assists

Toronto:

Curtis Glencross, C, 32
Previous Team: Washington Capitals / Calgary Flames
71 games, 13 goals, 22 assists, -1.1 CF%Rel (-8.8% ZSO%Rel)


Brad Boyes, RW, 33
Previous Team: Florida Panthers
78 games, 14 goals, 24 assists, 0.8% CF%Rel (0% ZSO%Rel)




That enough? Because I can go to last year and 2014 and list many more.

It is, and I was not aware of that. Thanks for taking the time to do that. Although it would kind of help to know what years they did the PTO. Colorado and Florida have had 100 pt seasons recently.

Making a move like that after a 100 pt season makes more sense than us doing it after being bottom 3 in ROW last year.

 

[Shaman464]

It is, and I was not aware of that. Thanks for taking the time to do that. Although it would kind of help to know what years they did the PTO. Colorado and Florida have had 100 pt seasons recently.

Making a move like that after a 100 pt season makes more sense than us doing it after being bottom 3 in ROW last year.

This was summer 2015, after each of these teams were 8th seed or were completely out of the playoffs. PTOs this time of year are common. They are used to fill out scrimmage squads.

 

[Frk It]

This was summer 2015, after each of these teams were 8th seed or were completely out of the playoffs. PTOs this time of year are common. They are used to fill out scrimmage squads.

You're right. As long as it doesn't result in a signing that hinders a young player then it's a non-issue. I guess I wouldn't even be worried about it if it wasn't like the 5th or 6th 30+ year old we've looked at this off-season, and Holland didn't have such a track record with washed up vets.

This off season has just been a weird one, it feels like.

 

[Shaman464]

You're right. As long as it doesn't result in a signing that hinders a young player then it's a non-issue. I guess I wouldn't even be worried about it if it wasn't like the 5th or 6th 30+ year old we've looked at this off-season, and Holland didn't have such a track record with washed up vets.

This off season has just been a weird one, it feels like.

Im right there with you, I will lose it if he signs another 30+ year old forward. This is why this year I completely avoided the internet July 1st. I knew Holland would say that the team was a few bounces, or if a few key injuries from happening away from the mix for a playoff spot and that he was looking to make the team better but only if it made sense. And knew that 100% meant an overpriced, 30+ middling vet. That no real action was going to be taken.

 

[iDangleDangle]

I disagree with your opinion.

But everyone can have their own imagination or opinion of our team state.

Sure, because your take on the team and it's state is always the truth to be taken as gospel

I vividly remember you trouting out it as a fact that Holland wouldn't sign Cleary any longer. Guess what happened...and all that "limiting ice-time as a cap control measure" tinfoil-*****.

In short, get off the high horse.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

That's what I don't quite understand about the opinion of some people who support Holland, or are "anti-tank" or whatever you want to call them.

How would you describe Holland's current strategy and his success at it? Serious question.

Because he's clearly not doing a tear down rebuild. He's stated that his goal is to make the playoffs next season. So he's got the team maxed out at the cap in an apparent attempt to make the playoffs. But I've also heard his supporters say the Wings are still going to be a bottom 5 team next season so what are we "pro-tankers" complaining about.

If Holland's goal is to make the playoffs and some of his supporters think the team is going to be bottom 5 then Holland is still doing a terrible job, no?

Or so people believe he is lying about wanting to make the playoffs?

I personally think they should be doing a more aggressive rebuild, but that aside I don't quite understand a scenario that makes Holland seem like a good GM right now. Unless his goal was to put together a maxed out cap team that will likely finish not too far outside the playoffs if everything goes well.

I'm not being a smartass, I just want to have a conversation that's not binary like most things here quickly become. (Holland sucks! Tanking is for losers!)

I don't think he's been AS bad as people think. Abby didn't need 7 years and Helm didn't need practically 4M over 5 years. Those deals were awful. Like the players, hate the money.

However, I don't have a problem with Daley at 3M (and actually think an effective puck mover D like him in addition to Green will make a lot of our younger forwards play a hell of a lot better) or the idea behind Weiss, Alfredsson, Nielsen. Nor am I particularly looking to roast him for Howard and Ericsson and other similar deals that he signed that had justification at the time and have cratered badly due to injury after the fact.

He's been below average, but if he was a blibbering nincompoop, they would have finished out of the playoffs long before last year.

Also, I want to give his guys taken recently (Svech, Mantha, Bertuzzi, Rasmussen, Larkin and the D-core we're building) a chance to actually succeed. Not by rushing them to the show and hoping that they turn into the baby Leafs... but not dismissing them as a potential future before they've even hit the ice in a meaningful way.

 

[Heaton]

I don't think he's been AS bad as people think. Abby didn't need 7 years and Helm didn't need practically 4M over 5 years. Those deals were awful. Like the players, hate the money.

Problem is, you have to compare him to his previous work. No one is comparing Tiger Woods to the 300th ranked golfer and saying, he's doing pretty good, they're comparing him to what his legacy is, one of the greatest golfers ever, and now he sucks.

Holland WAS (and maybe still is) considered one of the greatest GMs EVER. His results going on a decade have not lived up to that, so yeah, he's been that bad.

Also, I want to give his guys taken recently (Svech, Mantha, Bertuzzi, Rasmussen, Larkin and the D-core we're building) a chance to actually succeed. Not by rushing them to the show and hoping that they turn into the baby Leafs... but not dismissing them as a potential future before they've even hit the ice in a meaningful way.

So are you willing to give Holland 5-7 more years just to see if these guys actually pan out? I'm not.

 

[Henkka]

So are you willing to give Holland 5-7 more years just to see if these guys actually pan out? I'm not.

What does changing the GM will do for these people? Will they turn somehow different persons or start practising different?

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

I don't think he's been AS bad as people think. Abby didn't need 7 years and Helm didn't need practically 4M over 5 years. Those deals were awful. Like the players, hate the money.

However, I don't have a problem with Daley at 3M (and actually think an effective puck mover D like him in addition to Green will make a lot of our younger forwards play a hell of a lot better) or the idea behind Weiss, Alfredsson, Nielsen. Nor am I particularly looking to roast him for Howard and Ericsson and other similar deals that he signed that had justification at the time and have cratered badly due to injury after the fact.

He's been below average, but if he was a blibbering nincompoop, they would have finished out of the playoffs long before last year.

Also, I want to give his guys taken recently (Svech, Mantha, Bertuzzi, Rasmussen, Larkin and the D-core we're building) a chance to actually succeed. Not by rushing them to the show and hoping that they turn into the baby Leafs... but not dismissing them as a potential future before they've even hit the ice in a meaningful way.

Agreed that those deals were awful, especially Helm's. Howard and Ericsson I don't fault him for either.

He's not a blibbering nincompoop. That's what makes it so frustrating. He's been a great GM for most of his career but seems ill equipped to take on the kind of rebuilding the team needs. That's my beef with him. He's a master at tweaking the roster and duct taping it together to squeak out one more year, but it's time to get real about the core of the team.

In a vacuum the Daley signing isn't terrible, but what's the point? I know Holland says a rebuild is no guarantee but neither is anything else. I'm sure people are tired of me saying it but how does he plan to acquire the #1 C and top pairing D men the team needs while simultaneously signing guys like Daley to try and squeak into the playoffs? It puts the Wings on a path to not have the draft picks or cap room necessary to get that kind of talent.

We'll see where things stand after the first year in the new arena. Maybe once the Wings have a season under their belt in the new barn he will be honest about the state of the team, but it's hard to be hopeful. Right now it feels like we're destined for multiple seasons of purgatory.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

What does changing the GM will do for these people? Will they turn somehow different persons or start practising different?

Huh? What do you think the purpose of a GM is?

 

[Henkka]

Huh? What do you think the purpose of a GM is?

I don't know. Please tell me.

 

[lilidk]

Holland is proven manager who made couple big mistakes more lately. We have Blush who believes that little Bert is a savior for this franchise

 

[ArGarBarGar]

I don't know. Please tell me.

No, I asked you, since you seem to indicate that the success of his prospects will determine whether Holland deserves to be the GM. As if there aren't a myriad of other factors which are also important.

 

[avssuc]

Problem is, you have to compare him to his previous work. No one is comparing Tiger Woods to the 300th ranked golfer and saying, he's doing pretty good, they're comparing him to what his legacy is, one of the greatest golfers ever, and now he sucks.

Holland WAS (and maybe still is) considered one of the greatest GMs EVER. His results going on a decade have not lived up to that, so yeah, he's been that bad.



So are you willing to give Holland 5-7 more years just to see if these guys actually pan out? I'm not.

Adaptation isn't really his thing. He's never worked for any team outside of Detroit, and he's never faced a situation that needed serious reconstructive work. He was one of the best at maintenance, and that's no small task, but he's never done what he's being asked to do now... the same thing that should have started a half-decade ago.

Look at what Al Avilia is doing for the other Ilitch run club. At least he's getting a return for being one of the worst teams in the league.

I have zero faith in Holland. He's had plenty of time to start a serious reboot, but all hes done is try to maintain something that's well beyond that.

 

[Henkka]

I have zero faith in Holland. He's had plenty of time to start a serious reboot, but all hes done is try to maintain something that's well beyond that.

You seem to know everything better, how to avoid this current situation.

How would you have done the rebuild with Zetterberg, Kronwall and Franzen contracts after 2013 ?

Those were the key factors. You keep them, you kind of stay on the competition.

You trade them, fine, now you go with full rebuild.

Your actions would have been what ?

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

Problem is, you have to compare him to his previous work. No one is comparing Tiger Woods to the 300th ranked golfer and saying, he's doing pretty good, they're comparing him to what his legacy is, one of the greatest golfers ever, and now he sucks.

Holland WAS (and maybe still is) considered one of the greatest GMs EVER. His results going on a decade have not lived up to that, so yeah, he's been that bad.



So are you willing to give Holland 5-7 more years just to see if these guys actually pan out? I'm not.

No. I am not willing to give him 5-7 more years. They do need to make a change. I don't care about Ken Holland being the GM. I'm speaking about the players. I don't want to **** all over Svech, little Bert, Larkin, Mantha, Hronek, Cholowski, Saarijavi, etc. before they even have a chance for a meaningful go at it.

I don't think they should burn the entire thing down nor do I think that Ken Holland should be given carte blanche to stay through those guys developing. I'm just not interested in burning everything to the ground and just going with all the kids, because Edmonton showed that that doesn't work. They started getting good when they landed McDavid and they got to be a playoff team when they got serious about improving their defense and actually signing some experienced players to start to pull it together. Nor do I think it is a good idea with a brand new owner who you're kinda concerned might be more money-driven than competitiveness-driven to be paring the payroll down too quickly.

Because if he truly is money-driven, I could see him zipping up the purse strings if they start rebuilding and the rebuild flounders.

 

[Heaton]

No. I am not willing to give him 5-7 more years. They do need to make a change. I don't care about Ken Holland being the GM. I'm speaking about the players. I don't want to **** all over Svech, little Bert, Larkin, Mantha, Hronek, Cholowski, Saarijavi, etc. before they even have a chance for a meaningful go at it.

Yep, all good points. I'm (obviously) just not that optimistic about anything. Hronek looks good, but Cholowski has a lot of red flags and outside of Mantha I don't see much elite talent potential. But things can change quickly.

 

[StargateSG1]

Yep, all good points. I'm (obviously) just not that optimistic about anything. Hronek looks good, but Cholowski has a lot of red flags and outside of Mantha I don't see much elite talent potential. But things can change quickly.

There is no elite talent in the pipeline.
Sure some of these players might turn out to be Top 6 forwards and Top 2 D, but it's not enough and it will take years.

You need at least 2 great centers and at least 1 elite defenceman to contend, with good to great wingers mixed in.

 

[Henkka]

In the world of all GMs, changing it won't change the big picture.

Because TIME is the only factor which will turn this organization around.

Time will end those long-term contracts, which were signed when we were contending, or half-contending.

Since Datsyuk was on the mix, we were at least half-contending. When he decided to leave, so did Holland change his direction. No young assets were sold for vets since that and some pending UFAs or old assets has been sold our.

Holland has been unable to sell bigger, zero valued contracts. Contracts, which became zero valued because of injuries. Howard, Ericsson, Kronwall, Franzen, all would be fine if healthy, but guys did get these injuries AFTERWARDS of signing contracts. So Kenny didn't have a crystal ball to predict, how huge part of his major signings will be damaged goods years after. It killed the relative cap depth form the team.

By changing the GM now, or earlier, 2-3 year ago, nothing would have been different. Same damaged goods in the team, because nobody would buy our damaged goods. Instead if you package them with 1st rounders. That would have been REBUILD OF THE CENTURY.

People who tend to be blaiming this and blaiming that and blaiming everything in here, you don't seem to have any own real answers how situation would be done on a different way and how our situation would be better after different way of managing.

I'd like to see some real answers and suggestions for a better management plan, how to realistically complete it, rather than just calling for the GM's head and/or calling for the GM's head 4 years ago.

Whining about summer PTOs isn't a future plan.

Letting time eat our worse contract's away, that sounds more about it. Build some timelines, and see how they will match our prospects coming in etc.

 

[Winger98]

You seem to know everything better, how to avoid this current situation.

How would you have done the rebuild with Zetterberg, Kronwall and Franzen contracts after 2013 ?

Those were the key factors. You keep them, you kind of stay on the competition.

You trade them, fine, now you go with full rebuild.

Your actions would have been what ?

I don't think the choice is that binary. Going back to 12/13, we should have stayed away from Bert/Sammy/Tootoo/Coliacavo and used the lockout season to start jamming kids into the roster from the start, while not saddling the club with a handful of bad deals to aging, declining players.

We should have better gauged the willingness of guys like Flip and Hudler to stick around at prices we were okay with, and dealt them if they weren't going to fit that.

Then we should have not given out the deals we did to Gator/Helm/Nielsen.

in 12/13 Dats, Z, and Kronwall were all young and healthy enough to still carry the lion's share of the load. The Wings needed to be more aggressive in moving out the guys around them and re-working the rest of the club.

 

[avssuc]

You seem to know everything better, how to avoid this current situation.

How would you have done the rebuild with Zetterberg, Kronwall and Franzen contracts after 2013 ?

Those were the key factors. You keep them, you kind of stay on the competition.

You trade them, fine, now you go with full rebuild.

Your actions would have been what ?

Why is it only those 3 we talk about?

Why not:
Legwand, Cole, Helm, Abdelkader, Samuelsson, Weiss, Cleary, Ericcson, Helm, Miller, Richards, Colaiacovo, Howard, Daley, or a couple others? I never liked the DeKeyser contract, but at least he's still young enough to plus it up. Doubt it happens, but at least there's a slim chance.

In that list are players acquired via trade, FA, or re-signing, and I wasn't a fan of the moves for any number of reasons. Hank and Kronwall would have been better served shaping the next generation through their mid to late 30s, so those contracts don't bother me much.

I mean, the Tigers were/are shopping Fulmer, even after moving Verlander and Upton... years after moving star players that were looking at huge contracts in FA. Maybe they sold too much, and I know that circumstances are different without the hard cap, but the Wings could have easily been sellers at the trade deadline for more than just the past year.