Around the NHL XLI: Let Us Never Again Speak of Last Season

[haohmaru]

He does pretty much everything better outside of trying to murder people.

Oh and unlike Stevens at least he's clearly the best D on his own team.

Who was better than Stevens? Niedermayer?

Take a look at their similarity scores http://www.hockey-reference.com/players/s/stevesc01.html

They were pretty close, but Stevens was better.

 

[Machinehead]

The difference here is I'm not saying that Keith "isn't even close" to Stevens and you said exactly that.

This is less of me not giving Keith his due than it is about your assessment of Stevens.

Stevens is a hell of a player and I don't mean to make it sound like Keith is a significantly better player but the gap is pretty clear. It's small but it's there. Like on a railroad platform.

 

[Tawnos]

That is possible. The main problem I have with soley going by a HF thread is that many HF posters are too young to have seen guys like Stevens play in their primes so sometimes the views are more like educated guesses than actual observations.

I'm not saying go solely by threads there. But most of the good HoH posters go way back, some to the 50s.

 

[Tawnos]

Stevens is a hell of a player and I don't mean to make it sound like Keith is a significantly better player but the gap is pretty clear. It's small but it's there. Like on a railroad platform.

You're right. The gap is small but clearly there and is in Stevens' favor.

You like Keith, I get it. But you're pretty much on your own if you think he's better than Stevens was.

 

[NickyFotiu]

I'm not saying go solely by threads there. But most of the good HoH posters go way back, some to the 50s.

Geez those guys must be like 60. Did they have electricity to even watch the games back in the 50's??

 

[Machinehead]

You're right. The gap is small but clearly there and is in Stevens' favor.

You like Keith, I get it. But you're pretty much on your own if you think he's better than Stevens was.

That must be why Keith is the best of his generation and Stevens isn't in the top 5 of his generation.

 

[NickyFotiu]

That must be why Keith is the best of his generation and Stevens isn't in the top 5 of his generation.

Stevens played 22 seasons. What do you consider his generation?

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

Stevens played 22 seasons. What do you consider his generation?

It really doesn't matter because as someone else had already posted, Stevens spent pretty much his entire career playing in a league that was MUCH deeper with High end D than Keith has.

Also, Karlsson>Keith.

 

[Machinehead]

Stevens played 22 seasons. What do you consider his generation?

The early 90's to early 2000's when he had most of his success is what comes to mind.

During that time, MacInnis, Leetch, Bourque, Lidstrom, and Pronger were clearly better.

Keith is best the defenseman since the lockout. The only ones who are even in his universe in terms of individual resume are Lidstrom who hasn't played in several years and Karlsson who has none of the team success.

 

[Machinehead]

It really doesn't matter because as someone else had already posted, Stevens spent pretty much his entire career playing in a league that was MUCH deeper with High end D than Keith has.

Also, Karlsson>Keith.

I don't agree with this.

Defensemen are more well-rounded than ever and because of the rules, have more responsibility than ever. You can't just play defense anymore. You can't just play offense anymore.

Shea Weber basically is Scott Stevens and he barely cracks my current top 10.

We might be witnessing the greatest offensive defenseman in the history of game (sans Orr) right now.

Only 6 defensemen have multiple golds and multiple Cups. 4 of the 6 have played since the lockout.

It's easy to look back on the 90's and see a slew of hall-of-famers. It's silly to think history won't treat Keith, Doughty, Subban, Karlsson, Hedman, and maybe Weber just as kindly.

 

[Mikos87]

Stevens was better offensively till he was around 30.
Stevens is way better defensively.
Stevens could also dominate games with his physical side where Keith has almost become a guy that never throws a hit.
Stevens was the best Dman on his team for the majority of his years in NJ. Rod Langway was an outstanding 2 time Norris winning Dman when Stevens came in to the NHL.

Stevens would have good Corsi too if it was measured back in the day.

They clogged the neutral zone, Brodeaur didn't give up rebounds. They had guys that could skate it to the blue line and out.

Sure the Devils played a very conservative game... but they won.

 

[NickyFotiu]

The early 90's to early 2000's when he had most of his success is what comes to mind.

During that time, MacInnis, Leetch, Bourque, Lidstrom, and Pronger were clearly better.

Keith is best the defenseman since the lockout. The only ones who are even in his universe in terms of individual resume are Lidstrom who hasn't played in several years and Karlsson who has none of the team success.

Stevens started in the NHL in 1982. He was already in the NHL around 8-10 years by the early 90's.

Bourque was better.
Lidstrom was better.
Leetch was better but not by a lot.
Mac was very good but not better.
Pronger was not better.

By the way You mentioned Stevens played when the league was scoring more goals but Stevens was 5th in that league in PP goals in 84-85. Not 5th among Dmen. 5th in the whole league.

Here is the part that stands out to me. We are discussing who was better offensively yet Stevens was 20 times better defensively. JD once said Stevens could dominate some games without even crossing center ice.

 

[Machinehead]

I've seen Keith do the same. People seriously underrate him defensively.

 

[aufheben]

It's really not that feasible to compare defensemen across different generations. The game was so different when Scott Stevens played for the most part.

Also worth mentiong that Pronger and Lidstrom did some great things post-lockout. I mean Lidstrom broke 60 points 4/7 seasons after 2005, (5 if you include the 59 point year), won a Stanley Cup and a Gold Medal (which IMO means a hell of a lot more when it's not via Team Canada). Pronger was also an absolute lunatic in the playoffs. Duncan Keith who I adore as a player has just never been on Lidstrom's level. I've only been really following hockey post-lockout but I think Lidstrom is the best player I've ever seen excluding Crosby.

I will say this though: Keith is 10x better than Doughty. **** Doughty.

 

[Tawnos]

I don't agree with this.

Defensemen are more well-rounded than ever and because of the rules, have more responsibility than ever. You can't just play defense anymore. You can't just play offense anymore.

Shea Weber basically is Scott Stevens and he barely cracks my current top 10.

We might be witnessing the greatest offensive defenseman in the history of game (sans Orr) right now.

Only 6 defensemen have multiple golds and multiple Cups. 4 of the 6 have played since the lockout.

It's easy to look back on the 90's and see a slew of hall-of-famers. It's silly to think history won't treat Keith, Doughty, Subban, Karlsson, Hedman, and maybe Weber just as kindly.

Shea Weber and Scott Stevens aren't basically the same defenseman. They're only similar in the sense that they're both physical defenseman, and even then, Stevens was a hell of a lot meaner than Weber (although that may just be an era difference). I don't know how much of Scott Stevens you watched, since you were born when his career was already half over. A person can't form any real meaningful impressions, beyond emotional ones, of a player before the age of 10. Now, if you've watched a lot of his games from his Washington days as part of your general hockey fandom, then I apologize. Otherwise, I would suggest that you defer to the people who have more knowledge of the player than you.

Also, there are some great defensemen in the league right now, but I really don't agree that history will look at them as being the same level as the generation of D we are talking about. Are any of those guys top-5 defensemen of all time? That generation of defensemen had 1, and probably 2 (Bourque, Lidstrom). Are any of them top 10 defensemen? That generation had those same 2, and a 3rd on many lists in Chelios. I just don't see it.

 

[NickyFotiu]

I've seen Keith do the same. People seriously underrate him defensively.

I think you underestimate the effect Stevens had on other teams. Some forwards literally avoided going down his side of the ice out of fear but there is no way to prove either of our opinions so Ill just say good debate

 

[NickyFotiu]

It's really not that feasible to compare defensemen across different generations. The game was so different when Scott Stevens played for the most part.

Also worth mentiong that Pronger and Lidstrom did some great things post-lockout. I mean Lidstrom broke 60 points 4/7 seasons after 2005, (5 if you include the 59 point year), won a Stanley Cup and a Gold Medal (which IMO means a hell of a lot more when it's not via Team Canada). Pronger was also an absolute lunatic in the playoffs. Duncan Keith who I adore as a player has just never been on Lidstrom's level. I've only been really following hockey post-lockout but I think Lidstrom is the best player I've ever seen excluding Crosby.

I will say this though: Keith is 10x better than Doughty. **** Doughty.

Pronger is a tough call for me. He was so good once he found his game but I remember him coming in to the league and being kind of lost for a while. He used to slash guys sticks to the point they would vibrate in guys hands. Today those sticks would crack. He did not mind breaking the rules or hurting someone.

 

[Tawnos]

It's really not that feasible to compare defensemen across different generations. The game was so different when Scott Stevens played for the most part.

Also worth mentiong that Pronger and Lidstrom did some great things post-lockout. I mean Lidstrom broke 60 points 4/7 seasons after 2005, (5 if you include the 59 point year), won a Stanley Cup and a Gold Medal (which IMO means a hell of a lot more when it's not via Team Canada). Pronger was also an absolute lunatic in the playoffs. Duncan Keith who I adore as a player has just never been on Lidstrom's level. I've only been really following hockey post-lockout but I think Lidstrom is the best player I've ever seen excluding Crosby.

I will say this though: Keith is 10x better than Doughty. **** Doughty.

You know, I do think some of this "X player is better than Y player" stuff distracts from all-time rankings, which to me is a different thing. If you were to compare, say, Paul Coffey and Al MacInnis, I would say that MacInnis was the better defenseman. But Coffey gets invariably ranked higher on an all-time list, for a number of reasons, all valid.

 

[aufheben]

I don't remember when he came into the league but the Oilers 2006 playoff run was probably the most insane individual performance I've ever seen.

An aside: I think the 2006 SCF was easily the best we've seen post-lockout. It had everything, like there was a director behind the scenes. Just...everything. Let me take a trip down memory lane because I'm bored:

• two-way veteran captain in Brind'Amour/Man-horse, winning his first Cup
• rookie goaltender with Conn Smythe-level goaltending (IIRC Cam Ward was the backup that season until around the playoffs)
• the games in Edmonton were MADHOUSE, and in Carolina too for that matter
• 7 games, goes without saying
• teams on completely different sides of the continent
• Chris Pronger just carrying that team
• random-player heroics like Fernando Pisani

GOD IT WAS PERFECT

 

[Tawnos]

I think you underestimate the effect Stevens had on other teams. Some forwards literally avoided going down his side of the ice out of fear but there is no way to prove either of our opinions so Ill just say good debate

It is. I've asked HoH to weigh in on what I think are the two interesting questions. Who ranks higher, Stevens or Keith? And, will history treat this generation of D as well is it treated the 80s-90s generation? Here's the thread I put up: http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?p=122410425#post122410425

 

[NickyFotiu]

I don't remember when he came into the league but the Oilers 2006 playoff run was probably the most insane individual performance I've ever seen.

He was pretty awesome by then not only as a player but as a leader. He was expected to be great when drafted but probably needed a little maturing mentally. Hartford probably threw too much at him in in a sink or swim manner.

 

[Machinehead]

I don't remember when he came into the league but the Oilers 2006 playoff run was probably the most insane individual performance I've ever seen.

An aside: I think the 2006 SCF was easily the best we've seen post-lockout. It had everything, like there was a director behind the scenes. Just...everything. Let me take a trip down memory lane because I'm bored:

• two-way veteran captain in Brind'Amour/Man-horse, winning his first Cup
• rookie goaltender with Conn Smythe-level goaltending (IIRC Cam Ward was the backup that season until around the playoffs)
• the games in Edmonton were MADHOUSE, and in Carolina too for that matter
• 7 games, goes without saying
• teams on completely different sides of the continent
• Chris Pronger just carrying that team
• random-player heroics like Fernando Pisani

GOD IT WAS PERFECT

Don't forget Edmonton being up I think 4-0 in game 1 and Carolina winning that game and Edmonton winning game 5 in OT on a shorthanded goal.

 

[aufheben]

It was magical.

 

[Machinehead]

The fact that neither team was that good or deserved to be there makes it so much better

 

[haohmaru]

Shea Weber and Scott Stevens aren't basically the same defenseman. They're only similar in the sense that they're both physical defenseman, and even then, Stevens was a hell of a lot meaner than Weber (although that may just be an era difference). I don't know how much of Scott Stevens you watched, since you were born when his career was already half over. A person can't form any real meaningful impressions, beyond emotional ones, of a player before the age of 10. Now, if you've watched a lot of his games from his Washington days as part of your general hockey fandom, then I apologize. Otherwise, I would suggest that you defer to the people who have more knowledge of the player than you.

Also, there are some great defensemen in the league right now, but I really don't agree that history will look at them as being the same level as the generation of D we are talking about. Are any of those guys top-5 defensemen of all time? That generation of defensemen had 1, and probably 2 (Bourque, Lidstrom). Are any of them top 10 defensemen? That generation had those same 2, and a 3rd on many lists in Chelios. I just don't see it.

Stevens is definitely a guy you appreciate more if you watched him day in and day out. The guy was an absolute monster (and I'm not talking about his height and weight).

There's no way in hell I put either Pronger or Macinnis, especially Macinnis, ahead of Stevens. I'd have to think long and hard about Leetch.