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Around the NHL - 2023 offseason edition

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Guttersniped

Guttersniped

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Nocashstyle said:
I think it’s strange that no one seems to have any issues with Turgeon getting in, yet a lot of the general public seem to scoff at the idea of Elias. Turgeon put up some gaudy numbers, mostly in a much higher scoring era…but that’s it. He has one season where he finished 5th in Hart voting. Not a single vote any other year. One other season he received a single Selke vote. That’s it. Unless we really want to consider Lady Byng votes. Elias has a better voting record than that and was the best forward on two cup winning teams. Turgeon never won a cup.

Not saying Turgeon is unworthy, but just further validation in my mind that Elias is worthy.
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Turgeon has the most points of the guys outside the Hall. Not being in 500 Goal Club hurts Elias, as arbitrary as that is. Turgeon’s production is his big selling point, particularly being over a PPG for his career. He also scored 58 goals one year. (There’s a 50 goal club too.)

I don’t have a problem with Turgeon getting in.

Vernon is pretty weak, and I’m pretty generous with this sort of thing. It’s not Kevin Lowe bad but there were a lot of better candidates.

I’m not arguing against Elias, but he has less production and no hardware. You have to put Elias in context because he came in at the start of dead puck era and played in a defensive system. It is what it is. He’ll likely come out of nowhere unexpectedly in some future class like these guys did.

The funny part of all this was I had a little screed about Barrasso not getting that I cut from the earlier conversations. (I edited it down to just a reference to goalies getting screwed instead.) He hasn’t gotten in because he’s infamously kind of a prick. His speech could be a lot of, uh, fun.

There are better goalie picks than Vernon, the secrecy of the voting (and head scratchers like that one) is very Hockey old boys club.
 
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My3Sons

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Guttersniped said:
Turgeon has the most points of the guys outside the Hall. Not being in 500 Goal Club hurts Elias, as arbitrary as that is. Turgeon’s production is his big selling point, particularly being over a PPG for his career. He also scored 58 goals one year. (There’s a 50 goal club too.)

I don’t have a problem with Turgeon getting in.

Vernon is pretty weak, and I’m pretty generous with this sort of thing. It’s not Kevin Lowe bad but there were a lot of better candidates.

I’m not arguing against Elias, but he has less production and no hardware. You have to put Elias in context because he came in at the start of dead puck era and played in a defensive system. It is what it is. He’ll likely come out of nowhere unexpectedly in some future class like these guys did.

The funny part of all this was I had a little screed about Barrasso not getting that I cut from the earlier conversations. (I edited it down to just a reference to goalies getting screwed instead.) He hasn’t gotten in because he’s infamously kind of a prick. His speech could be a lot of, uh, fun.

There are better goalie picks than Vernon, the secrecy of the voting (and head scratchers like that one) is very Hockey old boys club.
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I refuse to read that because it has no crude references or thinly veiled profanity. Please correct it and repost it to comply with your message board requisites.
 
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Brodeur

Brodeur

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sudden-jean-dam_400.jpg


Is it bad that when I think of Tom Barrasso, the first thing I think of is that he wouldn't allow his name to be used in the JCVD movie Sudden Death?
 
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AfroThunder396

AfroThunder396

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KovalchukFistPump said:
If someone could retroactively apply advanced stats to Elias’ years - that could help his case. He just never got enough reputation to garner Seke votes.
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There was a lot of bias against the Devils in the mainstream hockey media at the time because of “The Trap” and whatnot. People knew the Devils were great defensively, but credited that largely to system as opposed to individual players.

Madden and Holik were the “defensive guys”. Everyone else in that forward group was just a guy in the minds of most people.

People at the time conflated good PKer with good defensively, and since Elias didn’t kill penalties he was kind of screwed.

The media tied themselves into pretzels contradicting themselves over the Devils. Great defensive system, but the players are all replaceable, except for the Hall of Famers, who aren’t really Hall of Famers because they’re propped up by a system and other Hall of Famers.
 
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Bleedred

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Kind of shocked by Barrasso and Vernon.

I’m pretty sure Osgood will eventually get in.

Joseph is probably not because he doesn’t have a cup.
 
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Louskoolaid89

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Bleedred said:
Kind of shocked by Barrasso and Vernon.

I’m pretty sure Osgood will eventually get in.

Joseph is probably not because he doesn’t have a cup.
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Cujo is above those guys. Didn't all of a sudden play like shit in the playoffs. Keith Kinkaid could have won a cup with those Detroit teams in front of him. Tired of standard NHL goalies being considered HOF goalies because they simply didn't lose the SCF and their team won it all.
 
Bleedred

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Louskoolaid89 said:
Cujo is above those guys. Didn't all of a sudden play like shit in the playoffs. Keith Kinkaid could have won a cup with those Detroit teams in front of him. Tired of standard NHL goalies being considered HOF goalies because they simply didn't lose the SCF and their team won it all.
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Vernon did also win the cup with Calgary years before that.

These inductions have now made me think Jonathan Quick does get in, but maybe not first ballot.

I remember thinking Jonathan Quick would get in back in 2015 or so and that was apparently a very controversial opinion at the time on the main board, because I had people telling me no way.

I said it wasn’t necessarily me arguing for Quick to be in the HOF, but I just think he would be. He already had two cups and a Conn Smythe, and was more than well on pace to have the all time wins record for American born goalies, as well as the all time shutout record among American born goalies.

At some point around 2018, Quick became a bad goalie and the Kings team got pretty mediocre, so he wasn’t picking up wins like he did and I thought that might cancel out his HOF induction. He does already have the most shutouts among American born goalies and has had that for quite some time.

Ryan Miller has the most wins among American born goalies, and if Quick doesn’t play at least one more year and likely part of another, he won’t be able to pass Miller. He has already passed Barrasso by a few who just got in.

Miller will never get in the HHOF though. He never won a cup, nor even played in a final.
 
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Louskoolaid89

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Bleedred said:
Vernon did also win the cup with Calgary years before that.

These inductions have now made me think Jonathan Quick does get in, but maybe not first ballot.

I remember thinking Jonathan Quick would get in back in 2015 or so and that was apparently a very controversial opinion at the time on the main board, because I had people telling me no way.

I said it wasn’t necessarily me arguing for Quick to be in the HOF, but I just think he would be. He already had two cups and a Conn Smythe, and was more than well on pace to have the all time wins record for American born goalies, as well as the all time shutout record among American born goalies.

At some point around 2018, Quick became a bad goalie and the Kings team got pretty mediocre, so he wasn’t picking up wins like he did and I thought that might cancel out his HOF induction. He does already have the most shutouts among American born goalies and has had that for quite some time.

Ryan Miller has the most wins among American born goalies, and if Quick doesn’t play at least one more year and likely part of another, he won’t be able to pass Miller. He has already passed Barrasso by a few who just got in.

Miller will never get in the HHOF though. He never won a cup, nor even played in a final.
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Playoff success defies a goalies legacy like no other position in sports other than a quarterback. Just the way it is.
 
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Bleedred

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njdevils1982 said:
im tired of weeding through league talk in the team thread.


but yes, f*** this phony. couldn't even end his career over 19999 SOG...

View attachment 719904
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If they ever induct that motherf***er above Vernon, I’m going to set things on fire.

Bill Ranford may also be blowing things up, considering they’re career twins.

Both mediocre to poor goalies in their career, but each have a cup and Conn Smythe.

Just look up list of Conn Smythe winners.

They’re two of the most rando Conn Smythe winners since the 70’s, if not earlier. They’re both guys that if you didn’t live through their era’s/cup/Conn Smythe wins, you wouldn’t even know who they are.

I remember calling Cam Ward Con Smythe and SCAM ward for the longest time. His career became so irrelevant that even I stopped calling him that.
 
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billingtons ghost

billingtons ghost

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Louskoolaid89 said:
Cujo is above those guys. Didn't all of a sudden play like shit in the playoffs. Keith Kinkaid could have won a cup with those Detroit teams in front of him. Tired of standard NHL goalies being considered HOF goalies because they simply didn't lose the SCF and their team won it all.
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I personally thought Cujo was a better goalie than all of those guys. There's prob a reverse Toronto bias. Vernon could play though. He was a big part of that Calgary team and was definitely one of those underrated west coast guys you and the media never saw, but he could steal games esp against Gretz and company in the same division and that's tough stuff. Doing it with two teams too.

He was a shadow of himself when he won it with Detroit, but I remember him being very good in CGY
 
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Bleedred

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I think a guy like Turgeon getting in certainly bodes well for Elias further down the road.

Turgeon has been retired for 16 years and eligible for 13 years and finally got in.

The two goalies have been retired for over 20 years and are just getting in this year.

I do think Elias eventually goes in. Someone like Tkachuk might too.

I don’t think we’ll ever see Claude Lemieux in there, but I also wouldn’t rule it out.
 
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