Around the NHL 2023-24 season thread - part II

[njdevils1982]

hey gary. you lost.

 

[forceten]

I think the NHL would certainly prefer a team in Houston, but it sounds like the Houston guy doesn't quite have his ducks in a row at the moment. The NHL needs this to happen right now and can't keep pushing the deadline every year. SLC can happen this fall and that's probably the best they can do on such short notice.

That's kind of how it happened with Atlanta. The Thrashers got kicked out of their arena and would have to suspend operations without a venue, and Winnipeg was one of the only options that could accommodate an NHL team on such short notice. Winnipeg wasn't the NHL's first choice, but they had an arena ready to go.

I think especially since the SLC arena already has the funds appropriated, their short-term viability shouldn't really be an issue. I think the NHL wants to stop the bleeding and get the team out of Arizona, everything else is a problem for tomorrow. If SLC isn't viable in 10 years then that's a conversation for the future.

Ah, interesting. That's a good point. These situations (poorly thought out in the beginning) led to emergencies and rather than have a dispersal draft, they moved the teams quickly.

That said, it's not going well. There's been rumblings of problems with Atlanta-Winnipeg. I wonder if SLC would be a similarly shaky ground like Winnipeg-Phoenix has been their entire existence.

Plonking a billion down for a franchise is kind of nuts too, so I don't blame the Houston owner for being cautious. The hockey team would be his 2nd class citizen at first, but I do think there's a shot it becomes wildly successful. Dallas seems to be doing quite well there and fits into the Cowboys, Rangers, Mavericks, FC Dallas sports ecosystem.

I'd almost prefer a dispersal draft to rushed moves. Someone talked about NHL being the 4th league and while it is, it was in my lifetime that it was third, and I think it's not far from being 5th with the MLS getting more and more popular.

 

[Guttersniped]

I've never paid attention to the Houston arena as a possible hockey venue, but the Rockets owner has said he's "working on it" with the NHL but also said it has to make sense for both parties. My guess is that he doesn't want to pay over a billion for what will be a second tier team for him.

He said he would take a relocated team but SLC is obviously making a huge push here.

Phoenix is like Atlanta. Bad ownership group, no planning, no agreement for sharing existing stadia, expectation of major public investment in a hockey-specific facility, etc.

The fans are there, but the ownership is royally screwing it up.

Two huge cities. There's no way it couldn't succeed, but the NHL did a poor job of ensuring that it was ready to go. And I worry about this knee-jerk move to a dude with cash for a city that's:

- the #45 MSA (Ahead of them without an NHL Team: Houston is 5, Atlanta is 6, Phoenix* is 10, San Diego is 18, Baltimore is 20, Orlando is 21, Charlotte is 22, San Antonio is 24, Portland is 25, Austin is 26, Sacramento is 28, Cincinnati is 30, Kansas City is 31, Cleveland is 33, Indianapolis is 34, Norfolk-VA Beach is 37, Jacksonville is 38, Providence is 39, Milwaukee is 40, Oklahoma City is 42, Louisville is 43, Richmond is 44, and Memphis is 45; just behind them includes Hartford at 51).

- the #22 CSA [combined statistical area] (ahead of them without an NHL Team: Houston at 8, Atlanta at 10, Phoenix* is 13, Orlando is 15, Cleveland is 17, Charlotte is 19, Portland is 20)

- the #117 City by population (of their 2.8M CSA and 1.2M MSA ,only 200k live within the city limits. That's some sprawl when 7% of the CSA and 16% of the MSA is actually in the city). This puts them behind Yonkers, Fayetteville NC, Worcester MA, Hialeah FL...

If this guy suddenly can't do the thing... what then?

What’s “his thing”? Getting a new arena built?

You contradict yourself here. “Bad ownership” is a problem but Utah having a potentially good owner isn’t a selling point?

The Jazz do really well in revenue and corporate sponsorship. SLC have a history with minor league hockey teams since 1969.

I don’t think any of those markets you talk about are particularly more appealing than Houston or Atlanta and those cities will likely get teams at some point.

Going strictly by markets it didn’t make a lot of sense to move a NBA team from Seattle to Oklahoma City but that happened because some rich dude wanted it to happen.

The SLC area is one the fastest growing metro areas in the country and has people you can sell season ticket packages to, it’s not a bad market no matter how much you shit on it.

A recent list has it at #41 MSA, not #45 link


link

 

[Guttersniped]

That said, it's not going well. There's been rumblings of problems with Atlanta-Winnipeg. I wonder if SLC would be a similarly shaky ground like Winnipeg-Phoenix has been their entire existence.

Again, why would it be on shaky ground? The Jazz aren’t.

How is it a worse market than Nashville?

The Jets can’t get corporate sponsorship/ business ticket holders, that’s their specific problem. A team can’t live on fan support alone.

 

[Bleedred]

Where does blow hard Tyson Nash work next year? Does he follow the team to Salt Lake City? I'm gonna say no. And I don't give a shit.

I'm gonna really miss him having an orgasm as he does the breakdown on every Coyotes goal. And his constant referring to good things the Coyotes do on the ice as ''Arizona Coyotes hockey!'' as if Arizona Coyotes hockey is something to be celebrated. I associate things like getting blown out more along the lines of Arizona Coyotes hockey.

Their PBP guy is another HACK as well.

Mereulo is also the biggest deadbeat owner in the league. Smells like a bailout to me.

 

[Bleedred]

I think Salt Lake City will have no problems, at least early on. If the team is continued to be run like the disaster it was in Arizona, it may struggle in several years time, but I think it'll be a success for now.

 

[forceten]

He said he would take a relocated team but SLC is obviously making a huge push here.



What’s “his thing”? Getting a new arena built?

You contradict yourself here. “Bad ownership” is a problem but Utah having a potentially good owner isn’t a selling point?

The Jazz do really well in revenue and corporate sponsorship. SLC have a history with minor league hockey teams since 1969.

I don’t think any of those markets you talk about are particularly more appealing than Houston or Atlanta and those cities will likely get teams at some point.

Going strictly by markets it didn’t make a lot of sense to move a NBA team from Seattle to Oklahoma City but that happened because some rich dude wanted it to happen.

The SLC area is one the fastest growing metro areas in the country and has people you can sell season ticket packages to, it’s not a bad market no matter how much you shit on it.

A recent list has it at #41 MSA, not #45 link

View attachment 849852
link

Not a contradiction at all - they're in harmony.

What befell larger markets were bad owners lingering too long and damaging the product. This to me is on the NHL for not planning it, but so be it.

If we are having problems in large markets like Atlanta and Phoenix getting troubled teams re-settled, how will putting our eggs in what might the only basket in a smaller market risk?

It's not a great market, sorry. It's not even in the top 10 for markets without a team. It's a market, that's what can be said about it, and there's money there, albeit mostly tied up in LDS.

The list you shared is percentage-based, not hard numbers based. Of course larger markets are not growing as fast, they're already larger. Washington, Philadelphia, Houston - these are top 10 markets in the nation.

Of the list on the left, all of those markets are larger than SLC.

I'm "shitting" on it because it smells of desperation rather than picking the "right" market to expand or change teams for. And we've been doing enough of that already.

 

[My3Sons]

I think Salt Lake City will have no problems, at least early on. If the team is continued to be run like the disaster it was in Arizona, it may struggle in several years time, but I think it'll be a success for now.

But will they retain their identity as a hard working team? We all know that being a hard working team is synonymous with being a good team. That's why that guy My3CoyotesDoggo jumped ship to root for a winning team.

 

[Nubmer6]

But will they retain their identity as a hard working team? We all know that being a hard working team is synonymous with being a good team. That's why that guy My3CoyotesDoggo jumped ship to root for a winning team.

You're a hard working poster.

 

[Guttersniped]

Not a contradiction at all - they're in harmony.

What befell larger markets were bad owners lingering too long and damaging the product. This to me is on the NHL for not planning it, but so be it.

If we are having problems in large markets like Atlanta and Phoenix getting troubled teams re-settled, how will putting our eggs in what might the only basket in a smaller market risk?

It's not a great market, sorry. It's not even in the top 10 for markets without a team. It's a market, that's what can be said about it, and there's money there, albeit mostly tied up in LDS.

The list you shared is percentage-based, not hard numbers based. Of course larger markets are not growing as fast, they're already larger. Washington, Philadelphia, Houston - these are top 10 markets in the nation.

Of the list on the left, all of those markets are larger than SLC.

I'm "shitting" on it because it smells of desperation rather than picking the "right" market to expand or change teams for. And we've been doing enough of that already.

Money is not “mostly tied up in the LDS” lol, there’s plenty of businesses and rich people willing to spend (unlike Winnipeg).

The Jazz are 10th in ticket sales and 7th in corporate sponsorship (unlike Winnipeg in the NHL).

In the end, rich dudes “pick” the market, the Rockets owner didn’t make it happen. Atlanta will likely get an expansion team.

The rest of the cities don’t have any rich guys trying to move the team there. Your feeling about Portland, Cincinnati, Charlotte don’t matter if someone with a billion is going to make this happen. (And I don’t agree that they’re better markets.)

 

[HBK27]

Didn't see this posted elsewhere...



I really like the MSG crew and game production, so in that aspect this is good. On the other hand, I know accessing MSG Networks is not so great for some posters.

 

[Bleedred]

But will they retain their identity as a hard working team? We all know that being a hard working team is synonymous with being a good team. That's why that guy My3CoyotesDoggo jumped ship to root for a winning team.

Anytime someone says ''Hard working team'' it's usually to describe some SHIT team.

Recently, I've heard the Sharks described as ''Hard working'' despite flirting with being the first team with fewer than 20 wins in an 82 game season since the 99-00 expansion Thrashers, as well as potentially fewer points than anyone since that same team.

 

[My3Sons]

Money is not “mostly tied up in the LDS” lol, there’s plenty of businesses and rich people willing to spend (unlike Winnipeg).

The Jazz are 10th in ticket sales and 7th in corporate sponsorship (unlike Winnipeg in the NHL).

In the end, rich dudes “pick” the market, the Rockets owner didn’t make it happen. Atlanta will likely get an expansion team.

The rest of the cities don’t have any rich guys trying to move the team there. Your feeling about Portland, Cincinnati, Charlotte don’t matter if someone with a billion is going to make this happen. (And I don’t agree that they’re better markets.)

What happened to the Yonkers market? Nothing says big time sports like Yonkers. My wife's childhood friend had a very nice condo there before she moved to Queens.

 

[forceten]

Money is not “mostly tied up in the LDS” lol, there’s plenty of businesses and rich people willing to spend (unlike Winnipeg).

The Jazz are 10th in ticket sales and 7th in corporate sponsorship (unlike Winnipeg in the NHL).

In the end, rich dudes “pick” the market, the Rockets owner didn’t make it happen. Atlanta will likely get an expansion team.

The rest of the cities don’t have any rich guys trying to move the team there. Your feeling about Portland, Cincinnati, Charlotte don’t matter if someone with a billion is going to make this happen. (And I don’t agree that they’re better markets.)

Unfortunately, rich dudes pick markets, that is true. I'm not sure what happened with Houston - the owner is the same ilk in the sense that he has an Arena and an NBA team. The market is so much bigger. It has a natural rival (Dallas) ready to go.

There's a LOT of LDS money in Salt Lake, let's not kid ourselves. It's not a podunk town, but let's not pretend its a major city. It just isn't. Better than Winnipeg is a low, low bar. There are towns bigger than Winnipeg.

There are dynamics in play here beyond just comparing markets. And that's part of my discomfort. The other markets don't necessarily have a ready owner or a ready arena (or either). Some do. But public funding varies across the country. Other diversions differ too, and I do understand the hesitancy to jump into yet another warm market instead of a colder market that might be more aligned to hockey. But never in any calculation I can come up with in my mind is "Salt Lake" the first or even top 3 that comes to mind other than this guy's hopping the line because the NHL is desperate and he's willing to throw cash at it. That's literally it.

 

[My3Sons]

Unfortunately, rich dudes pick markets, that is true. I'm not sure what happened with Houston - the owner is the same ilk in the sense that he has an Arena and an NBA team. The market is so much bigger. It has a natural rival (Dallas) ready to go.

There's a LOT of LDS money in Salt Lake, let's not kid ourselves. It's not a podunk town, but let's not pretend its a major city. It just isn't. Better than Winnipeg is a low, low bar. There are towns bigger than Winnipeg.

There are dynamics in play here beyond just comparing markets. And that's part of my discomfort. The other markets don't necessarily have a ready owner or a ready arena (or either). Some do. But public funding varies across the country. Other diversions differ too, and I do understand the hesitancy to jump into yet another warm market instead of a colder market that might be more aligned to hockey. But never in any calculation I can come up with in my mind is "Salt Lake" the first or even top 3 that comes to mind other than this guy's hopping the line because the NHL is desperate and he's willing to throw cash at it. That's literally it.

I have a concern that the Houston owner is an NBA guy and would see the NHL team as a red headed step child. This happened in New Orleans when the Saints owner, the late Tom Benson, bought the Pelicans. He basically took them only when he was given massive incentives by the city/state and he got the team for a relative pittance by agreeing to keep them in town. He didn't care about the team for all intents and purposes. They provided a tenant that filled dates in the arena that sits next to the Superdome. At one point, the Saints higher ups actually were put in charge of the Pelicans. His wife cares but he was a football owner first and last.

 

[MartyOwns]

i really feel for the coyotes fans. not because the league is about to mercy flush their team, but because they supported a dogshit franchise for decades and have nothing to show for it.

 

[Guttersniped]

i really feel for the coyotes fans. not because the league is about to mercy flush their team, but because they supported a dogshit franchise for decades and have nothing to show for it.

The thread on the Coyotes board is brutal, people stunned and some crying. It’s a tough read at times. I’m empathic lol.)

Remember their owner might suck, but he had been adamant about not moving the team, so they are being completely blindsided by this.

As far as they knew the land auction in June was the next step and the team wasn’t in any immediate danger of being moved… until it came out yesterday that the team might move right away.

 

[forceten]

I have a concern that the Houston owner is an NBA guy and would see the NHL team as a red headed step child. This happened in New Orleans when the Saints owner, the late Tom Benson, bought the Pelicans. He basically took them only when he was given massive incentives by the city/state and he got the team for a relative pittance by agreeing to keep them in town. He didn't care about the team for all intents and purposes. They provided a tenant that filled dates in the arena that sits next to the Superdome. At one point, the Saints higher ups actually were put in charge of the Pelicans. His wife cares but he was a football owner first and last.

Isn't that the same as Salt Lake? The owner is the Jazz owner?

 

[Bcap88]

Vegas just keeps adding contracts over contracts some how

 

[My3Sons]

Isn't that the same as Salt Lake? The owner is the Jazz owner?

Could be an issue but the SLC ownership seems to be pushing hard and willing to pay for the team. The Houston guy seemed to me like he wanted a bit of a discount on some level.

 

[HBK27]

Vegas just keeps adding contracts over contracts some how

Assumed it was only a matter of time until they reached an agreement on an extension.

Players understandably want to play in Vegas and they're not shy about jettisoning contracts/players - have to respect how they build/manage their team, even if it is cutthroat at times.

 

[Brodeur]

Assuming the signing bonuses aren't multiple installments throughout the year, Hanifin will get 26.5 million in the first 24 months of the deal.

One trade I thought that could make sense is Vegas sending Zach Whitecloud to Arizona for some 2024 draft picks. Vegas would free up a little bit in cap space and open up a permanent roster spot for Kaedan Korczak. Korczak will need waivers starting next season and he looked decent while being called up while Whitecloud and others were injured. And then Vegas gets a couple more picks to announce some names on Day 2 at The Sphere.

Coyotes could use a steady stay at home D with some playoff experience. Whitecloud is young enough to grow with the current core and signed through 2028. But we'll see if they move to Utah and they end up being a more acceptable free agent landing spot.

Vegas just keeps adding contracts over contracts some how

Alec Martinez (5.25 mil) expires after this season. We'll see if they keep Marchessault (5 mil) or if that's where the Hertl money is coming from.

 

[Rhodes 81]

i really feel for the coyotes fans. not because the league is about to mercy flush their team, but because they supported a dogshit franchise for decades and have nothing to show for it.

Yep...

The thread on the Coyotes board is brutal, people stunned and some crying. It’s a tough read at time. (I’m empathic lol.)

Remember their owner might suck, but he had been adamant about not moving the team, so they are being completely blindsided by this.

As far as they knew the land auction in June was the next step and the team wasn’t in any immediate danger of being moved… until it came out yesterday that the team might move right away.

All too familiar. I went to the last Thrashers game. that morning, an article ran in the AJC about how it could be the last game. Everyone just sort of laughed it off. Just weeks later they were all but gone. All that winter, the ownership group had insisted they were finally going to be done suing each other and were looking for new investors, but instead they were shopping the team and refusing to negotiate any bid that would keep them in Atlanta.

 

[My3Sons]

Yep...

All too familiar. I went to the last Thrashers game. that morning, an article ran in the AJC about how it could be the last game. Everyone just sort of laughed it off. Just weeks later they were all but gone. All that winter, the ownership group had insisted they were finally going to be done suing each other and were looking for new investors, but instead they were shopping the team and refusing to negotiate any bid that would keep them in Atlanta.

That's awful and shameful and you have my sympathy. The fans are always treated like garbage and I wonder if the future holds consistent interest from younger fans when there is so much to distract them that didn't exist when I was a kid. Like, for example, the automobile and the charcoal briquet which only appeared later on when I had already formed a rooting interest in sports.

 

[bossram]

Mereulo is also the biggest deadbeat owner in the league. Smells like a bailout to me.

Yep. 100%.

This is pretty much exactly what I predicted. Mereulo is a grifter, through and through. He was never actually interested in running a hockey team, as shown by how little money he invested in the on-ice product, stiffing vendors and rent, and being completely unserious about building a new arena.

The whole charade about a new arena was always about selling the team at a profit. Again, he has no interest in creating a viable on-ice product. Once he had approval for whatever hocus-pocus arena plan there was, he was going to sell the team at a massive profit from what he paid for. Just a set up for a nice trade. And all the while, he'd used his losses on the Coyotes to offset taxes from his other businesses.

Luckily for him, he doesn't even have to keep up the facade of looking like he's doing something. The NHL/Ryan Smith are just going to pay him out! This is the dream for Mereulo. Doesn't even have to keep the pretenses of his charade. Just gets the cash.