Around the NHL — Episode XLXVI

[Senscore]

Avs looked like they might win a few cups a couple years ago. But with Kadri leaving, then Landeskog getting hurt and now all this uncertainty with Nichushkin… might not be able to ice a team that good again.

Really hammers home that you can never take success for granted even if you have the pieces for it.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

Johnston double dips .. 1 shortie 1 pp leads the stars in playoff goals


2-0 Dallas. Trying to take a 3-1 lead home

 

[dumbdick]

Man, f*** you cbc and cityTV for airing barely any of the playoffs this year.

 

[PlayOn]

Johnston double dips .. 1 shortie 1 pp leads the stars in playoff goals


2-0 Dallas. Trying to take a 3-1 lead home

How many hits tho

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

How many hits tho

They just keep on coming

 

[Xspyrit]

Could be Florida's year. They look pretty unstoppable.

Stars are pretty good too.

 

[Ouroboros]

Another goal by Johnston

Man looking at the talent taken after Boucher is incredible. What a pathetic pick, has he played 30 games in 2 years?

How can people be this bad at their jobs

Boucher was ranked higher than Johnston on many lists.

He was higher on McKenzie's list [29 vs 40], Button's list [49 vs 63], THN's list [36 vs 43], ESPN's list [40 vs not ranked in the top 50], Chris Peters [43 vs 52]. Boucher even came out ahead in the consensus rankings of 15 sources.

Maybe you should be asking how Dallas did such a good job?

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

Boucher was ranked higher than Johnston on many lists.

He was higher on McKenzie's list [29 vs 40], Button's list [49 vs 63], THN's list [36 vs 43], ESPN's list [40 vs not ranked in the top 50], Chris Peters [43 vs 52]. Boucher even came out ahead in the consensus rankings of 15 sources.

Maybe you should be asking how Dallas did such a good job?

Definitely have to tip your hat to Dallas... Nill is doing a very good job there I think.
Strong team .. good in all aspects.. Some nice young NHL players... and a good farm.
Taking a kid everyone in the hockey world knew about like Stankoven. mid 2nd round.. and he's in the bigs now.
A few picks outside the 1st round on this roster.

Tough team to get by in the Avs.. can't count em out till their out . I am rooting for them(Stars) but... to improve the Boston pick I suppose I shouldn't

 

[JungleBeat]

People really thought Chabot was better than Heiskanen on here…

 

[L'Aveuglette]

Boucher was ranked higher than Johnston on many lists.

He was higher on McKenzie's list [29 vs 40], Button's list [49 vs 63], THN's list [36 vs 43], ESPN's list [40 vs not ranked in the top 50], Chris Peters [43 vs 52]. Boucher even came out ahead in the consensus rankings of 15 sources.

Maybe you should be asking how Dallas did such a good job?

What I get from that is that all those experts aren't very good at predicting who will be good at the NHL level past the very top guys lol.

 

[Gil Gunderson]

Carolina winning this series actually seems pretty realistic here.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

People really thought Chabot was better than Heiskanen on here…

who dat

 

[Senscore]

What I get from that is that all those experts aren't very good at predicting who will be good at the NHL level past the very top guys lol.

It's easy to overlook that these kids are all 18. A lot can change in a few years for people at that age. Just a part of life.

 

[Ouroboros]

What I get from that is that all those experts aren't very good at predicting who will be good at the NHL level past the very top guys lol.

There doesn't seem to be anybody that's consistently good at it, and that includes the people being paid by NHL teams to do it professionally.

 

[Dionysus]

It's easy to overlook that these kids are all 18. A lot can change in a few years for people at that age. Just a part of life.

2021 was also tue season that most prospects had 1.5 seasons disrupted by Covid. Made for a draft with less viewing, and odd development curves. No excuse for the Sens, they clearly didn't adapt. Whereas Dallas was able to hit on some great picks.

 

[Rodzilla]

Boucher was ranked higher than Johnston on many lists.

He was higher on McKenzie's list [29 vs 40], Button's list [49 vs 63], THN's list [36 vs 43], ESPN's list [40 vs not ranked in the top 50], Chris Peters [43 vs 52]. Boucher even came out ahead in the consensus rankings of 15 sources.

Maybe you should be asking how Dallas did such a good job?

Well they mostly always do a good job at the draft. And its not just Johnston, Boucher is a terrible pick at 10

But yeah you arent wrong

 

[DrEasy]

Well they mostly always do a good job at the draft. And its not just Johnston, Boucher is a terrible pick at 10

But yeah you arent wrong

A best-in-class move would be to poach one of their scouts to become our head scout. Let's learn some of their secrets.

 

[bicboi64]

I’m all for crapping on Dorion and Mann but absolute busts after Boucher outnumber hits 5 to 1. Awful draft.

True, but if we drafted Bolduc, Lucius, Cornato, Sillinger, Cossa, etc... At least those guys were first round projected. Those would have hurt in the "regular" sense. Boucher just hurts a bit extra in the "why tf did you think he was worth the 10th overall" type.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

I’m all for crapping on Dorion and Mann but absolute busts after Boucher outnumber hits 5 to 1. Awful draft.

still a dumb ass pick... Dorion thought he was further along in the rebuild than he actually was and wanted to add that element... I can see it but I do not agree with the timing of it or the moves he made in the 2 subsequent drafts.

 

[Micklebot]

still a dumb ass pick... Dorion thought he was further along in the rebuild than he actually was and wanted to add that element... I can see it but I do not agree with the timing of it or the moves he made in the 2 subsequent drafts.

If only we traded the Boucher pick for Chychrun or DBC instead of the picks we did...

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

If only we traded the Boucher pick for Chychrun or DBC instead of the picks we did...

and if only he came out of the gates like gang busters in his early time at BU... His value likely dropped by Draft the following year

 

[frightenedinmatenum2]

Brassard for Zibanejad was a good trade for Ottawa if you understand the reality of the team at the time. It's only not a good trade if you live in the fantasy world where Zibanejad wouldn't have just been traded for a late 1st and a few small plusses as a pending UFA.

The issue shouldn't be with the trade itself. The issue should be with the ownership conditions that made it a good trade for Ottawa.

Zibanejad and Brassard had the same number of years of team control remaining. Brassard was cost controlled at a 3.33M real money AAV (3M/3.5M/3.5M). Brassard was disappointing when he came to Ottawa, but based on his time in New York he was the better player at the time and was more consistent than Zibanejad. That doesn't account for Brassard being a veteran and Zib' very much still being a young player who was learning what it took compete wise.

That trade got Ottawa:

1. More salary space to load up the team under Melnyk's budget.
2. Cost control since Brassard was already signed.
3. A much better return on Brassard than they would have gotten on Zibanejad, because his low base salary made third party retention possible.

It was a good trade for Ottawa. The fact that it was a good trade for Ottawa is what should upset people. The only reason it was a good trade for Ottawa was because the limitations of ownership meant that they were never going to benefit from Zibanejad's longer development curve as a bigger player with some warts, because he was going to be gone anyways, and during the period where they had team control he was going to be a less valuable trade asset than Brassard turned out to be when they sent him to Pittsburgh.

It was A+ asset management by Dorion given the conditions he operated under. The point being, they got what was mostly a lateral move, they improved elsewhere on the team via freeing up budget, and they got more assets for the piece when they moved on. (For reference, Duchene was a 90+ point C and got a 1st, Davidsson, and Abramov. Odds are, Zibanejad gets less than that given he didn't breakout as the 50+ 100 point pace Jagr-lite like player at that point.)

 

[bicboi64]

Brassard for Zibanejad was a good trade for Ottawa if you understand the reality of the team at the time. It's only not a good trade if you live in the fantasy world where Zibanejad wouldn't have just been traded for a late 1st and a few small plusses as a pending UFA.

The issue shouldn't be with the trade itself. The issue should be with the ownership conditions that made it a good trade for Ottawa.

Zibanejad and Brassard had the same number of years of team control remaining. Brassard was cost controlled at a 3.33M real money AAV (3M/3.5M/3.5M). Brassard was disappointing when he came to Ottawa, but based on his time in New York he was the better player at the time and was more consistent than Zibanejad. That doesn't account for Brassard being a veteran and Zib' very much still being a young player who was learning what it took compete wise.

That trade got Ottawa:

1. More salary space to load up the team under Melnyk's budget.
2. Cost control since Brassard was already signed.
3. A much better return on Brassard than they would have gotten on Zibanejad, because his low base salary made third party retention possible.

It was a good trade for Ottawa. The fact that it was a good trade for Ottawa is what should upset people. The only reason it was a good trade for Ottawa was because the limitations of ownership meant that they were never going to benefit from Zibanejad's longer development curve as a bigger player with some warts, because he was going to be gone anyways, and during the period where they had team control he was going to be a less valuable trade asset than Brassard turned out to be when they sent him to Pittsburgh.

It was A+ asset management by Dorion given the conditions he operated under. The point being, they got what was mostly a lateral move, they improved elsewhere on the team via freeing up budget, and they got more assets for the piece when they moved on. (For reference, Duchene was a 90+ point C and got a 1st, Davidsson, and Abramov. Odds are, Zibanejad gets less than that given he didn't breakout as the 50+ 100 point pace Jagr-lite like player at that point.)

The problem with this argument is that the Sens, under Melnyk's constraints still ended up spending money on a centre.

Instead of extending Zibby for the $5.3 million aav that he did with NYR, we ended up paying $3 million to Brass, and then $6 million in real dollars to Duchene.

In the same season, Zibby scored at a higher ppg, and had a better playoffs than Brass in the same playoffs. One was a vet who had a career year, and the other was a prospect who was getting better every year (albeit slowly). Zibby's best season for Ottawa would've been Brassard's 3rd best season, that's pathetic. It wasn't a lateral move by any metric, it was a downgrade based off each players production in their first season with their new teams.


If they kept Zibby and didn't try to acquire Duchene, they literally would've saved money and had serviceable centre depth (Pageau would be our 2c).

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

Brassard for Zibanejad was a good trade for Ottawa if you understand the reality of the team at the time. It's only not a good trade if you live in the fantasy world where Zibanejad wouldn't have just been traded for a late 1st and a few small plusses as a pending UFA.

The issue shouldn't be with the trade itself. The issue should be with the ownership conditions that made it a good trade for Ottawa.

Zibanejad and Brassard had the same number of years of team control remaining. Brassard was cost controlled at a 3.33M real money AAV (3M/3.5M/3.5M). Brassard was disappointing when he came to Ottawa, but based on his time in New York he was the better player at the time and was more consistent than Zibanejad. That doesn't account for Brassard being a veteran and Zib' very much still being a young player who was learning what it took compete wise.

That trade got Ottawa:

1. More salary space to load up the team under Melnyk's budget.
2. Cost control since Brassard was already signed.
3. A much better return on Brassard than they would have gotten on Zibanejad, because his low base salary made third party retention possible.

It was a good trade for Ottawa. The fact that it was a good trade for Ottawa is what should upset people. The only reason it was a good trade for Ottawa was because the limitations of ownership meant that they were never going to benefit from Zibanejad's longer development curve as a bigger player with some warts, because he was going to be gone anyways, and during the period where they had team control he was going to be a less valuable trade asset than Brassard turned out to be when they sent him to Pittsburgh.

It was A+ asset management by Dorion given the conditions he operated under. The point being, they got what was mostly a lateral move, they improved elsewhere on the team via freeing up budget, and they got more assets for the piece when they moved on. (For reference, Duchene was a 90+ point C and got a 1st, Davidsson, and Abramov. Odds are, Zibanejad gets less than that given he didn't breakout as the 50+ 100 point pace Jagr-lite like player at that point.)

I think this is far too slanted into excusing the direction they went. It was another move that expedited the need/desire to "rebuild" among others. All this team ever needed under Melnyk/Dorion was more patience and maybe over half a decade didn't need to be tossed out the window. Patience back then and a rebuild isn't even necessary. They sold the need to rebuild by creating it. Patience throughout the rebuild and it wouldn't have failed as badly as it has with PD sending half of what was accumulated out the door for failed experiments, and would have more in the cupboard to try to pivot.

It's like it excuses Dorion for his over aggressiveness that led to long term consequences over and over. Even dating back to the Phaneuf deal Murray credited him with orchestrating. Zbad didn't even end up getting paid much, and it's never been set in stone there was a clear directive from Melnyk to move him out specifically. Surely, if Dorion was a good GM, he would have convinced his owner of the best route forward, over abandoning potentially years of sustainability for a scorched earth rebuild brought on as much by mismanagement as financial issues.

Phaneuf deal + Zbad deal + Duchene deal + bad money to vets = a need to rebuild as much as anything else. The run was fun, but it was a choice imo to toss 6+ seasons at the expense of a small window for a team that still would never be considered a contender.

 

[bicboi64]

I think this is far too slanted into excusing the direction they went. It was another move that expedited the need/desire to "rebuild" among others. All this team ever needed under Melnyk/Dorion was more patience and maybe over half a decade didn't need to be tossed out the window. Patience back then and a rebuild isn't even necessary. They sold the need to rebuild by creating it. Patience throughout the rebuild and it wouldn't have failed as badly as it has with PD sending half of what was accumulated out the door for failed experiments, and would have more in the cupboard to try to pivot.

It's like it excuses Dorion for his over aggressiveness that led to long term consequences over and over. Even dating back to the Phaneuf deal Murray credited him with orchestrating. Zbad didn't even end up getting paid much, and it's never been set in stone there was a clear directive from Melnyk to move him out specifically. Surely, if Dorion was a good GM, he would have convinced his owner of the best route forward, over abandoning potentially years of sustainability for a scorched earth rebuild brought on as much by mismanagement as financial issues.

Phaneuf deal + Zbad deal + Duchene deal + bad money to vets = a need to rebuild as much as anything else. The run was fun, but it was a choice imo to toss 6+ seasons at the expense of a small window for a team that still would never be considered a contender.

Valid points, but I wouldn't group the Phaneuf trade with the Zibby or Duchene deals. Phaneuf was overpaid by the Leafs and even at his retention, but we gave up spare parts with the only real value being Michalek and a 2nd (Greening, Lindberg, Cowan were all done by that time) and we got a legit second pairing RD. If anything, we should've gotten the Leafs to retain a little more but we finally had a solid D for once.