Are the Leafs tanking? -- Tanking Discussion Thread

[666]

Topic says it all?

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[Duke16]

Or are they just bad

Answer: both

 

[666]

Or are they just bad

Answer: both

Tanking is being bad on purpose.

 

[JackJ]

List all of the moves made this offseason towards making the playoffs.

(Hint: None)

So yes. Icing a horrible hockey team is tanking from a managements perspective.

 

[GordieHoweHatTrick]

I don't know but I'd imagine that if they were tanking they probably wouldn't have hired a historically successful coach and would've probably attempted to dismantle their roster further (traded Phaneuf, JvR & Bernier).

They didn't hire Horachek because they wanted to intentionally tank either. They fired Carlyle because 1) the team started sliding and the underlying measures (advanced stats) weren't improving, 2) Shanahan needed to ascertain if those measures were the result of the coach's system or if it was the players, and 3) if it was the players to start making changes to the roster (which led to Kessel's departure, among other things). At least that was the generally held belief then but is changing now to suit people's arguments?

Also, if we were tanking I'd imagine we'd have all those prospects we have in the AHL up with the big club, making their mistakes and learning from them at the NHL level instead of the A. At least that's what Buffalo did. They also traded Leopold, Pominville, Sekera, Vanek and Miller. Vanek was traded at the beginning of the season. That was a tank.

 

[Cor]

I don't know if they were trying to lose, but they certainly weren't trying to win either.

Nylander was our best forward in camp, and if we wanted to win games, he'd be on the team.

 

[JackJ]

I don't know but I'd imagine that if they were tanking they probably wouldn't have hired a historically successful coach and would've probably attempted to dismantle their roster further (traded Phaneuf, JvR & Bernier).

They didn't hire Horachek because they wanted to intentionally tank either. They fired Carlyle because 1) the team started sliding and the underlying measures (advanced stats) weren't improving, 2) Shanahan needed to ascertain if those measures were the result of the coach's system or if it was the players, and 3) if it was the players to start making changes to the roster (which led to Kessel's departure, among other things). At least that was the generally held belief then but is changing now to suit people's arguments?

Its not an obvious Buffalo level tank but a high draft pick is the obvious goal of this club.

 

[JamesFromLondon]

Seems like the Goalies might be... but was I the only person who heard Babs say pain was coming, and actually embraced for the season ahead?

 

[JackJ]

Tanking is being bad on purpose.

Management is, the players aren't. The players don't benefit from losing games.

 

[Warden of the North]

Uh yes. Its pretty obvious.

Management traded our best player, and replaced with him with old washed up scrubs on one year deals or kids with little future. Our good prospects are being kept away from this mess.

This team is structured to be bad and shed vets at the deadline for picks.

 

[Canada4Gold]

No.

Tanking is making moves to ensure losing now, if we were trying to lose we would have taken whatever deal we could have gotten for JVR, Kadri, Phaneuf, Gardiner, etc. Like what Buffalo did last year. They made a point to trade away anyone who could score, or save shots. Didn't matter the return, getting rid of anyone who could contribute to a win was the goal.

I don't think management will be upset when we win games, they're just not actively making moves with present results in mind. Which will result mostly in losses, but it's not an active goal to lose right now, but a symptom of the plan.

 

[Hyperglide]

lol at this thread. Are you new? Of course they are tanking.

 

[Terrible GM]

Players and coaching staff will always try to win. Creating a sound work ethic for the years to come. Management had a plan before the season. Get more draft picks and develope them. It's a well disguised tank. If it wasn't a tank Nylander and Brown would of at least made the opening night roster.

 

[TheLeastOfTheBunch]

Signed a bunch of PTOs who are playing in our top 6/9. If they weren't tanking (IE: trying to win now), I'm sure they would've traded a few picks here and there and bolstered the roster

The coaches and players on ice aren't tanking, but management is IMO.

 

[Canada4Gold]

Uh yes. Its pretty obvious.

Management traded our best player, and replaced with him with old washed up scrubs on one year deals or kids with little future. Our good prospects are being kept away from this mess.

This team is structured to be bad and shed vets at the deadline for picks.

all things to improve the future team. Who's going to be better for our team in 5 years? Kapanen, Harrington, and a 1st rounder, or an aging Kessel?

Who's going to be better for the future, nothing, or a bunch of guys drafted with picks that we got from the guys we intend to trade at the deadline.

If the goal was to lose right now, we could have signed a bunch of ECHL players to league minimum salary instead of PAP, Boyes, Arcobello, etc and we would have been great losers. We could trade away Kadri, JVR, etc and been even better losers.

Kessel was traded away, those players signed because the gains from those moves will be better in the long run, not with an active goal to lose. Losing is just a byproduct.

 

[Cor]

But srsly, we need Matthews or Chychrun, so we better be tanking.

 

[p.l.f.]

Simmons: "Coach, are you tanking"
Babcock: "Excuse me.. I'm I what??"
Simmons: "Er.. are you, you know, tanking, trying purposely to play a lousy roster to get a top pick in the draft"
Babcock: "ok let me you something, Simmons is it? Do you write dumb articles every day because you expect nobody to read them?" Do you want me to answer a question as stupid as that? Next question"

 

[Canada4Gold]

Signed a bunch of PTOs who are playing in our top 6/9. If they weren't tanking (IE: trying to win now), I'm sure they would've traded a few picks here and there and bolstered the roster

The players on ice aren't tanking, but management is IMO.

there's an inbetween between tanking and actively trying to win.

You can make moves with nothing in mind but winning now

You can make moves with nothing in mind but losing now

Or you can do what the Leafs are doing, making moves now with the future in mind, not caring what the short term results are. That will very often result in losing, but doesn't mean they're actively trying to lose.

Management doesn't care what the results of the games this season are. If you call that tanking then I guess they're tanking. I have a different definition of tanking and that's actively making moves where you try to make losing right now more likely as being the only goal.

 

[JackJ]

all things to improve the future team. Who's going to be better for our team in 5 years? Kapanen, Harrington, and a 1st rounder, or an aging Kessel?

Who's going to be better for the future, nothing, or a bunch of guys drafted with picks that we got from the guys we intend to trade at the deadline.

If the goal was to lose right now, we could have signed a bunch of ECHL players to league minimum salary instead of PAP, Boyes, Arcobello, etc and we would have been great losers. We could trade away Kadri, JVR, etc and been even better losers.

Kessel was traded away, those players signed because the gains from those moves will be better in the long run, not with an active goal to lose. Losing is just a byproduct.

1) Cap floor prevents that.
2) The 1yr deal signings have a slight chance of being worth a draft pick at the deadline. ECHL players won't.

 

[Face Of Bear]

The Leafs are rebuilding.

The Leafs are letting their young talent develop in the minors instead of rushing them.

The Leafs want to keep their cap situation flexible so that they can make a run when their young players are ready.

The Leafs still need to fill roster spots, and they do it with players who will sign to terms that dont disrupt the above points.

If you want to call that tanking, go ahead. It is what it is. To be honest I dont see the point of labeling it one thing or the other.

 

[Canada4Gold]

1) Cap floor prevents that.
2) The 1yr deal signings have a slight chance of being worth a draft pick at the deadline. ECHL players won't.

1. we could have signed those ECHL guys instead of PAP, Boyes, Arcobello etc, and still be above the cap floor because we have other guys, Horton for example, Phaneuf, that keep us above the cap floor.

If we wanted to be worse, that was an option and we still would have been above the cap floor.

2. Exactly, we can get picks from these guys we have, i.e. moves make with the future in mind, signing the guys we did, is potentially better for the future, which is the goal. The goal isn't to actively attempt to lose right now, that's just a byproduct.

 

[GordieHoweHatTrick]

I couldn't tell from Babock's pressers that he's intentionally tanking. Based off of the things that came directly from the coach's mouth it just seems like the roster is piss-poor.

I could concede that maybe Shanahan/Dubas/Lamoriello decided to cut ties with Kessel knowing full-well that the Team would have trouble winning games no matter how hard they tried but that just speaks volumes about how bad the Team really was.

Perhaps the Maple Leafs were just staying afloat with Kessel on the roster but instead of trying to patch holes to the life raft to get it across the pacific they decided to let it sink and try sending a new ship altogether.

 

[KGL]

Yes and no.

Lou, Shanny, Dubas, and management seem to be tanking. Look at the team they put together, they're certainly not expecting to win with that.

Babs and the players are not tanking. They don't care about draft picks, they want to win now regardless of how crappy the team is that was put together. Babs has said he wants to win, and this team can win, I think he's genuine with that. Do coaches often care about drafting? I don't think so. Players certainly don't.

 

[Canada4Gold]

Yes and no.

Lou, Shanny, Dubas, and management seem to be tanking. Look at the team they put together, they're certainly not expecting to win with that.

Babs and the players are not tanking. They don't care about draft picks, they want to win now regardless of how crappy the team is that was put together.

not expecting to win and trying to lose are 2 different things imo

tanking: trying to lose

rebuliding: Making moves with the future in mind which often means lots of losing now

the coach and players obvious wouldn't try to lose, most of the players here won't be here when the draft pick obtained if here so have no reason to want to lose to get a pick. I'd imagine most coaches would have too much respect to try to lose, especially someone like Babcock.

 

[JackJ]

1. we could have signed those ECHL guys instead of PAP, Boyes, Arcobello etc, and still be above the cap floor because we have other guys, Horton for example, Phaneuf, that keep us above the cap floor.

If we wanted to be worse, that was an option and we still would have been above the cap floor.

2. Exactly, we can get picks from these guys we have, i.e. moves make with the future in mind, signing the guys we did, is potentially better for the future, which is the goal. The goal isn't to actively attempt to lose right now, that's just a byproduct.

1) I'll concede this point while raising another point. How would playing with ECHL players affect the youngsters development?

2) "that's just a byproduct" You can phrase it however you want but what the leafs are doing at the moment is what people around here refer to as tanking. Its not tanking in the true sense where players are intentionally tanking for money but its a form of tanking.

For example, the Sabres players/coaches didn’t tank last season but management did. Difference being, they were obvious about it.