Are K-Wings Safe in Kalamazoo?

[toledo109]

Yes but it's Flint. Nothing goes well in Flint.

 

[Nightsquad]

First Arena's capacity is 3875, but there have been crowds of over 4100 with standees there in the past when the team used to draw well.

Problem with anymore then 3500 in attendance in either Elmira or Utica is dangerous. God forbid those buildings need to be evacuated. I heard the building in Utica is really bad to just navigate the concourse to use the bathroom or get food. Someone I know who travels to Syracuse often but has been to games in Utica for the Pioneers has said anything over 3000 forget trying to use the bathrooms of get food, it's that bad. I was in Elmira for their first ever hockey game between the Jackals and Knoxville Speed (yes the old UHL) and men having to wait 10 minutes to use the bathroom is awful. Been to NHL games of 18,000 plus (MSG, the old Hartford Civic Center, both NJ barns in Nerwark and East Rutherford) and never have I had to wait more then a minute or two if at all to make it into the bathroom. Trying to put more people then you should in such small arenas is irresponsible and reckless.

 

[Nightsquad]

Kalamazoo has had hockey continuously for 41 years. IHL 1974-2000, UHL 2000-2009, ECHL 2009-present. I'd say that is pretty significant hockey history.

I agree, minor league hockey like Heavy Metal hair bands have been a Kalamazoo fixture for years lol.

 

[Sports Enthusiast]

Problem with anymore then 3500 in attendance in either Elmira or Utica is dangerous. God forbid those buildings need to be evacuated. I heard the building in Utica is really bad to just navigate the concourse to use the bathroom or get food. Someone I know who travels to Syracuse often but has been to games in Utica for the Pioneers has said anything over 3000 forget trying to use the bathrooms of get food, it's that bad. I was in Elmira for their first ever hockey game between the Jackals and Knoxville Speed (yes the old UHL) and men having to wait 10 minutes to use the bathroom is awful. Been to NHL games of 18,000 plus (MSG, the old Hartford Civic Center, both NJ barns in Nerwark and East Rutherford) and never have I had to wait more then a minute or two if at all to make it into the bathroom. Trying to put more people then you should in such small arenas is irresponsible and reckless.

Also the thing that pisses me off about the Elmira arena is its a horseshoe that doesn't go all the way around. Which would help. You can only get to the other end of the arena by walking around the whole damn thing. That game you're talking about also had a huge delay cause the fire alarms went off ironically lol

 

[Clinton Comets EHL]

Problem with anymore then 3500 in attendance in either Elmira or Utica is dangerous. God forbid those buildings need to be evacuated. I heard the building in Utica is really bad to just navigate the concourse to use the bathroom or get food. Someone I know who travels to Syracuse often but has been to games in Utica for the Pioneers has said anything over 3000 forget trying to use the bathrooms of get food, it's that bad. I was in Elmira for their first ever hockey game between the Jackals and Knoxville Speed (yes the old UHL) and men having to wait 10 minutes to use the bathroom is awful. Been to NHL games of 18,000 plus (MSG, the old Hartford Civic Center, both NJ barns in Nerwark and East Rutherford) and never have I had to wait more then a minute or two if at all to make it into the bathroom. Trying to put more people then you should in such small arenas is irresponsible and reckless.

Guess the codes people haven't looked into this. Yes, very dangerous, that is why it hasn't been shut down. Why don't you actually go to a game and experience it. You spout off about things you have no idea what you're talking about.

 

[Clinton Comets EHL]

Problem with anymore then 3500 in attendance in either Elmira or Utica is dangerous. God forbid those buildings need to be evacuated. I heard the building in Utica is really bad to just navigate the concourse to use the bathroom or get food. Someone I know who travels to Syracuse often but has been to games in Utica for the Pioneers has said anything over 3000 forget trying to use the bathrooms of get food, it's that bad. I was in Elmira for their first ever hockey game between the Jackals and Knoxville Speed (yes the old UHL) and men having to wait 10 minutes to use the bathroom is awful. Been to NHL games of 18,000 plus (MSG, the old Hartford Civic Center, both NJ barns in Nerwark and East Rutherford) and never have I had to wait more then a minute or two if at all to make it into the bathroom. Trying to put more people then you should in such small arenas is irresponsible and reckless.

He HEARD it, it must be true. Wow, been to 4 Northeast hockey arena and never had to wait to use the bathroom. Award him a Pulitzer Prize!

One thing for sure, he never had to wait for the bathroom in Albany during a Devils game!

 

[Nightsquad]

He HEARD it, it must be true. Wow, been to 4 Northeast hockey arena and never had to wait to use the bathroom. Award him a Pulitzer Prize!

One thing for sure, he never had to wait for the bathroom in Albany during a Devils game!

Ummm yea, your right. Haven't been to a game in Albany yet. Been to Elmira, Rochester, Syracuse, as far as semi pro buildings go. Probably will get to Adirondack later this season though as I will be staying in nearby Saratoga area with relatives. Hockey isn't a make or break in Albany, places like where your from have not much else going for them. If it wasn't for the Comets or college hockey Utica wouldn't event need an arena. Arenas are symbols for much more then hockey.

 

[Nightsquad]

Also the thing that pisses me off about the Elmira arena is its a horseshoe that doesn't go all the way around. Which would help. You can only get to the other end of the arena by walking around the whole damn thing. That game you're talking about also had a huge delay cause the fire alarms went off ironically lol

Had a solid blast in Elmira for their opening night at what was then known as the Coach USA arena. I was so fortunate enough to get the tickets. I still have a bumper sticker given to the fans that night for the local radio station "Wingz, Official Jackals Hockey Station" lol. Also had a souvenir puck but lost that unfortunately. I remember a small but really skilled player for the Knoxville Speed with the last name of Tortorella, didn't see if he was related to John or not lol but neverless it was a fun evening. Thought the UHL back in the 2000s was a really good product. Sadly the Danbury fiasco followed by the lousy CHL agreement really ruined what was becoming a very good minor pro hockey product. It was awesome to see Elmira transition to the ECHL as the UHL/CHL was starting to close the doors on the eastern teams. Danbury, New Haven Knights, Adirondack, Elmira, and Binghamton made for a solid eastern UHL footprint. Thought the Elmira arena was a gem back in the day having its main arena, it's own practice facility, and I don't think the pub and grill was finished just yet. I remember getting to the arena and work was still being done on the building's fire alarm or sprinkler system so nobody was being let in yet. That's a dandy of an arena for the Elmira & Corning area, perfect size and always seems to have other events going on. Don't get that way too often but If I end up that way on business during the winter I will check out the Jackals schedule.

 

[Nightsquad]

He HEARD it, it must be true. Wow, been to 4 Northeast hockey arena and never had to wait to use the bathroom. Award him a Pulitzer Prize!

One thing for sure, he never had to wait for the bathroom in Albany during a Devils game!

Ummm yea, your right. Haven't been to a game in Albany yet. Been to Elmira, Rochester, Syracuse, as far as semi pro buildings go. Probably will get to Adirondack later this season though as I will be staying in nearby Saratoga area with relatives. Hockey isn't a make or break in Albany, places like where your from have not much else going for them. If it wasn't for the Comets or college hockey Utica wouldn't event need an arena. Arenas are symbols for much more then hockey.

 

[Nightsquad]

He HEARD it, it must be true. Wow, been to 4 Northeast hockey arena and never had to wait to use the bathroom. Award him a Pulitzer Prize!

One thing for sure, he never had to wait for the bathroom in Albany during a Devils game!

Ummm yea, your right. Haven't been to a game in Albany yet. Been to Elmira, Rochester, Syracuse, as far as semi pro buildings go. Probably will get to Adirondack later this season though as I will be staying in nearby Saratoga area with relatives. Hockey isn't a make or break in Albany, places like where your from have not much else going for them. If it wasn't for the Comets or college hockey Utica wouldn't event need an arena. Arenas are symbols for much more then hockey. If your from Clinton NY then heck your not too far from the Albany area. This summer had the pleasure of attending the Travers Race in Saratoga Springs, major league getting to see American Pharoah race and the place was booming. That same week went to a minor league baseball game in a town just outside of Albany called Troy, seats 4500 for NY-Penn League baseball yet there was about 5000 in attendance. Knock on Smallbany all ya want but maybe people there expect a little more then what people in Rome-Utica do. Utica has no other sports, no baseball, no basketball, no NASCAR, nothing. With not one but two DI hockey teams, with not one but two DI basketball teams all within 20 minutes of one another in the Albany area not to mention the ECHL Adirondack Thunder less then an hour away maybe the fans in Albany expect better then what the Devils have done in past decade and have worn out the market??? A look past back in history shows Albany did quite nicely in the AHL both on the ice and in the stands. Up until two seasons ago Utica had not much to brag about, not with the Bulldogs, Blizzard, Prowlers, and definitely not while they were the AHL Devils. There is little to brag about in Utica other then their brief success still in its infancy. A little hockey DB search and search of other archives just reinforces the point. Hey I thinks its loyal base of just over 3K is good news for hockey fans in the area, other then that the only thing that area has the interests me is a Bass Pro Shop, a little Mini one folks lol. Our grocery stores down here off I-95 are bigger then Utica's Bass Pro Shop lol.

 

[Sports Enthusiast]

Had a solid blast in Elmira for their opening night at what was then known as the Coach USA arena. I was so fortunate enough to get the tickets. I still have a bumper sticker given to the fans that night for the local radio station "Wingz, Official Jackals Hockey Station" lol. Also had a souvenir puck but lost that unfortunately. I remember a small but really skilled player for the Knoxville Speed with the last name of Tortorella, didn't see if he was related to John or not lol but neverless it was a fun evening. Thought the UHL back in the 2000s was a really good product. Sadly the Danbury fiasco followed by the lousy CHL agreement really ruined what was becoming a very good minor pro hockey product. It was awesome to see Elmira transition to the ECHL as the UHL/CHL was starting to close the doors on the eastern teams. Danbury, New Haven Knights, Adirondack, Elmira, and Binghamton made for a solid eastern UHL footprint. Thought the Elmira arena was a gem back in the day having its main arena, it's own practice facility, and I don't think the pub and grill was finished just yet. I remember getting to the arena and work was still being done on the building's fire alarm or sprinkler system so nobody was being let in yet. That's a dandy of an arena for the Elmira & Corning area, perfect size and always seems to have other events going on. Don't get that way too often but If I end up that way on business during the winter I will check out the Jackals schedule.

Haha the players were in training camp and they didn't necessarily have a roof over their heads completely. I always felt like the timing and everything was very rushed. I mean it should have been ready for camp. That league would get some players like that. I know when Motor City had a team Wayne Gretzky had a little brother on the team. I wondered what happened. He was really good at this level though. I loved the product. There were rivalries and intense games and the opponents were close enough you could travel to places on weekends and their fans would also come in. So night and day to the ECHL. The grass isn't always greener. While we may see better players now that doesn't mean the overall experience is better. I wish that we could get a few more northeast teams. Manchester, Brampton and Adirondack are nice though. Makes it a little better. Still wish Danbury could find a way back. It also didn't help that around the time the recession was going on and Michigan got owned. I wonder what would have happened though if Adirondack got that lease and Danbury never got busted. I feel like the arena isn't utilized too much anymore. They've actually changed that pub. They knocked it out and put in a brewery and next to that put in a restaurant with a bar. On top of that there's a restaurant upstairs too.

 

[hoodle]

pathetic in K-zoo

Due to arena conflicts, Kalamazoo had the first 3 games at home vs S. carolina....here are your attendance figures... game 1 Friday 4/15: 1052, Game 2 Sat 4/16: 1166, and Game 3 Mon 4/18. ( could be final game in K-zoo): 815..... Can't believe that this team will hang on much longer.

 

[Sports Enthusiast]

Due to arena conflicts, Kalamazoo had the first 3 games at home vs S. carolina....here are your attendance figures... game 1 Friday 4/15: 1052, Game 2 Sat 4/16: 1166, and Game 3 Mon 4/18. ( could be final game in K-zoo): 815..... Can't believe that this team will hang on much longer.

Aren't the owners stinking rich?

 

[hoodle]

Aren't the owners stinking rich?

I believe so, but for those type of numbers, you lose money just opening the building....

 

[crimsonace]

Please show me a single published report that the K-Wings are in any sort of trouble, other than speculation with attendance numbers.

K-Wings aren't going anywhere. They've been pulling similar attendance numbers for years. The team owns the building (and so the team fills dates & helps defray the operational costs and creates economies of scale by having the team & building operations combined) and the owner is a pretty wealthy civic-minded person who has been running that operation through the IHL, UHL & now ECHL for years. Thanks to the salary cap (and the K-Wings almost always having multiple affiliates), the actual overhead to operate a team is pretty low.

 

[garnetpalmetto]

I believe so, but for those type of numbers, you lose money just opening the building....

It's something I'm kind of used to seeing at the minor league level, not just in hockey. If I had to wager a guess as to why, season ticket holders oftentimes don't automatically get playoff tickets and have to opt in (if anything I've seen them get playoff priority more than automatic playoff tickets) and teams oftentimes do a poor job advertising playoff games/schedules.

 

[hoodle]

Maybe its just my experiences losing teams from the Toledo Sports Arena that had those same attendance figures that make me wonder..

 

[garnetpalmetto]

Kalamazoo definitely has the greatest percent change, but as you can see, every team has a decline in attendance in the playoffs, some very negligible (Allen) and others more significant (Kalamazoo, Florida)

Team | 2015-16 Average Attendance | 2016 Average Playoff Attendance | % change
Adirondack|2,462|2,316|-5.93%
Allen | 4,571 | 4,533 | -0.83% Colorado | 4,906 | 4,308 | -12.19% Florida | 5,214 | 2,815 | -46.01% Fort Wayne | 7,484 | 5,263 | -29.68% Kalamazoo | 2,298 | 1,011 | -56.01%
Manchester|4,622|4,257|-8.03%
Missouri|5,154|4,784|-7.18%
Toledo | 6,982 | 5,510 | -21.08%

Compare this year thus far to last year (markets that were in the playoffs both years are bolded for easier reference):

Team | 2014-15 Average Attendance | 2015 Average Playoff Attendance | % change Allen | 4,096 | 3,547 | -13.40% Colorado | 5,289 | 4,450 | -15.86% Florida | 5,205 | 2,749 | -47.19% Fort Wayne | 7,277 | 5,050 | -30.60%
Idaho|4,030|3,147|-21.91%
Kalamazoo | 2,703 | 1,581 | -41.51%
Ontario|7,802|3,282|-57.93%
Orlando|6,209|5,747|-7.44%
Quad City|3,913|2,776|-29.06%
Rapid City|3,856|2,878|-25.36%
Reading|4,192|3,259|-22.26%
South Carolina|3,979|3,238|-18.62%
Toledo | 6,440 | 5,408 | -16.02%
Tulsa|5,479|2,850|-47.98%
Utah|4,919|3,358|-31.73%
Wheeling|2,499|2,354|-5.80%

More teams had double digit declines and Kalamazoo in particular did as well. Without being on the ground in that market it's hard to say what might be causing that precipitous a playoff decline. That said, bad playoff attendance and steep/double-digit drops in attendance aren't necessarily cause for concern or an unusual occurrence is what I'm getting at in general.

 

[Sports Enthusiast]

The playoffs are a money loser. One team cheated once not to qualify after qualifying for example.

 

[mfrerkes]

The best barometer of attendance for a team is not first-round playoff numbers, but instead year-to-year comparisons for the regular season. There's a case to be made that Kalamazoo's recent drop in attendance (especially as it relates to regular season figures) is something that shouldn't be dismissed entirely.

During the 2013-14 season, Kalamazoo averaged 3138 per game. That number fell by over 400 per game in 2014-15 to 2703. This season, the team shed another 400 fans per game...sliding to an ECHL-worst 2298.

While I can believe that the team's civic-minded owners might throw caution to the wind in terms of finances, their thinking could easily change if the annual 10-15% attendance hemorrhage continues another couple years. There comes a point where being civic-minded takes a backseat to mounting losses caused by an apathetic fan base that is constantly diminishing in size.

I'm sure Kalamazoo will be back this fall, but unless their downward trend is reversed next season, the outlook for seasons beyond 2017 does look questionable.

 

[returnoftheyeti]

I cut my teeth on hockey watching and growing up with the KWings in the late 80s and early 90s. Fondly remember the dreaded rivalery with the Komets. Skating on the ice after games. Going to the tunnel to see the players coming out, or going in during periods.
I remember the San Diego chicken. Green Ice Games. The programs had 2 page posters of the players. I had a massive puck collection, given, bought and caught.
I had one of the plastic horns they sold.

I remember when they went from red and white to green and gold and becoming Stars affiliates.

I remember Ken Hitchcock was head coach of the KWings for a while.

I last went to a game in Wings Stadium around 2007. I had been away from Kalamazoo for over 10 years by then. Same old barn, but it seemed so small to me. We all grow up.
Hockey games are never as loud as I remember Wings Stadium being when I was a kid.

 

[Cyclones Rock]

Went to Cyclones game in Fort Wayne on Friday. Announced attendance 5119 Fort Wayne fan guessed that it was around 2500-2800. I estimated 2500. No way are there 2500 no shows to a playoff game. Fort Wayne attendance numbers are a complete fiction.

Met two of the Frankes during intermission. Michael Franke was a blast to talk to! Didn't bring up their penchant for attendance exagerration

Kalamazoo at least is announcing real numbers. By the numbers alone, things look bleak. But, if the owner has deep enough pockets, and I've heard that he does, then they could be around for a long time. I hope they are. Haven't been up there for a few years, but I absolutely love the facility. It's perfect for the level of hockey. The year by year displays around the concourse about the Wings and other events the building had in that year is a wonderful touch. Never a dull intermission there for me.

 

[GarbageGoal]

Went to Cyclones game in Fort Wayne on Friday. Announced attendance 5119 Fort Wayne fan guessed that it was around 2500-2800. I estimated 2500. No way are there 2500 no shows to a playoff game. Fort Wayne attendance numbers are a complete fiction.

Met two of the Frankes during intermission. Michael Franke was a blast to talk to! Didn't bring up their penchant for attendance exagerration

I don't know how Fort Wayne does it, but a lot of minor league teams give their STH their seats for the playoffs FREE as long as they commit to renewing for the following year with a deposit. If Fort Wayne has 5,000 season ticketholders for next year, it's entirely possible that number is correct, albeit not entirely honest about actual attendance. I know in Providence, even being a partial season seat holder gets you free playoffs with such a commitment, and I can bet you not all those seats will not be filled either, even on a Friday or Saturday night in the playoffs.

 

[Sports Enthusiast]

Where I live this isn't the case you actually have to buy the tickets. I think most people going to the playoff games are season ticket holders though because they don't give any away.

 

[Bondurant]

It's been nearly two decades since I've attended a K-Wings game. Most of the span has been spent living outside of Michigan. Otherwise I'd have been attending games over that span. Used to go all the time as a kid and loved the games.

I cannot account for what has happened since I last stepped foot inside Wings Stadium but the arrival of the Griffins most certainly bit into the fanbase a bit. The decent into lower tiers likely hasn't helped either. I remember when Ken Hitchcock was the coach and Manny Fernandez was the star goalie (not to mention the period of time Rob Brown spent there). The allure of NHL caliber talent was always exciting.

One of these days I look forward to making a return.