All-time roster, and who in recent history has a chance to crack it?

[JaymzB]

Moore – Beliveau – Geoffrion
Blake – Lach – M. Richard
Joliat – Morenz – Lafleur
Shutt – H. Richard – Cournoyer
Lalonde

Robinson – Harvey
Savard – Lapointe
Cleghorn – Chelios
Lappierre

Plante
Roy

So no, not yet. Subban and Price definitely could if they keep this pace up.

 

[Mrb1p]

Moore – Beliveau – Geoffrion
Blake – Lach – M. Richard
Joliat – Morenz – Lafleur
Shutt – H. Richard – Cournoyer
Lalonde

Robinson – Harvey
Savard – Lapointe
Cleghorn – Chelios
Lappierre

Plante
Roy

So no, not yet. Subban and Price definitely could if they keep this pace up.

Price is better than Plante, no matter how you twist it. He's also better than Dryden, and I'd say he's well on pace to kick Roy off the hill.

Subban clearly is ahead of Pointu, Chelios, Cleghorn, Savard and Laperiere.

Also, take a look at Pacioretty's stats, and then take a look at every single one of the LW's stats, then tell me how you don't have him there. He scores more than all of them in a harder scoring era.

 

[ChesterNimitz]

Are you comparing the players to their respective opponents or on a pure player vs. player point of view. This would produce 2 very different teams.

Patrick Roy (Best, winning championships on his own, carrying the team has the best player...neither Plante nor Dryden did that it the way Patrick did.)
Guy Carbonneau (in his role)
Markov is certainly in there.

In all of these 'best of all time' exercises, SOLR poses the question that must be asked. Having watched hockey since the 1950's I can say that many (most) of the players from 50, 40 and even 30 years ago would have difficulty making the NHL today, let alone star as they once did. The game was much different then, it was not international and the players were smaller, slower and far less conditioned. Most players in the 50s and 60s had jobs outside of hockey. The idea of training 12 months of the year was a foreign concept. It took the Russians in 1972 to show an out of conditioned Team Canada the benefits of a complete and professional approach to training. In these types of lists the question that also has to be asked is: what year are you referring to when you add a player to your 'dream' team? Obviously, if you want Lafleur on your team you want the Lafleur of 1975-1979 and not the fading 'Flower' of 1983. If you are going by one or two peak years, then you have to have Richer when he was a dynamic 50 goal scorer. What about players that played for the team early in their careers like Leclair, who then went on to greatness with another team? It's a fun exercise, but I wouldn't get too scientific about it. The analytics don't work.

 

[MXD]

Price is better than Plante, no matter how you twist it. He's also better than Dryden, and I'd say he's well on pace to kick Roy off the hill.

Subban clearly is ahead of Pointu, Chelios, Cleghorn, Savard and Laperiere.

Also, take a look at Pacioretty's stats, and then take a look at every single one of the LW's stats, then tell me how you don't have him there. He scores more than all of them in a harder scoring era.

Dickie Moore won two Art Ross...

Right against the best winger of all-time.

And a case could be made that he isn't the Habs best LW.

Pacioretty has to distance himself from Mats Naslund significantly before laying any claim to a roster spot.... At what's probably the Habs weakest position. Play Centers on the wing (actually, just Lach) and he'll miss the cut.

But yeah... He has an outside shot if Lach is kept off. Safest shot is Subban, mainly because Plante/Roy is a ridiculously tall order. Subban might already have passed Chelios for all I care.

Markov would have to pass Tremblay first, and that's just not happening.

 

[MXD]

Oh and there is also the big elephant in the room that is the playoffs, for everyone not named Subban.

 

[JaymzB]

Price is better than Plante, no matter how you twist it. He's also better than Dryden, and I'd say he's well on pace to kick Roy off the hill.

Subban clearly is ahead of Pointu, Chelios, Cleghorn, Savard and Laperiere.

Also, take a look at Pacioretty's stats, and then take a look at every single one of the LW's stats, then tell me how you don't have him there. He scores more than all of them in a harder scoring era.

Plante has an argument for being the best goalie in the history of the game (I'd probably take Hasek, but Plante is up there). Before you say anything about last year, Plante has a season just about as good, plus all those other great seasons and playoffs.

No way is Subban ahead of Pointu or Savard. The other 3 I can start to see an argument for, but Subban needs a couple more seasons at his level now to move into that position. I will admit he might have already passed Cleghorn, and could pass Chelios with a monster season or playoff.

As for Patches, you may want to check out the # of GP's per season for guys like Blake and Joliat before citing stats.

 

[bobholly39]

I think Subban has a realistic chance at being top 2 ever for habs dman.

Maybe i'm wrong but - it seems like Doug Harvey is un-attainable...but is anyone else?

is Subban not better than Robinson? Not for career value yet of course, but so far? He's uber talented.

Price...pfft. So hard. Price just had a Hasek-like season last year. It's only 1 year, others have done so too. Theodore did. Tim Thomas in Boston few years ago. Neither were able to repeat their Hart-worthy performances for a 2nd yr. But let's be optimistic. Let's say Price is the one who gets to repeat - maybe even multiple seasons. So - Price wins another Hart, few vezinas, maybe even 1 more lindsay.

Does he even then crack the roster of 2 goalies for Habs? I dunno. Such an uphill battle.

Also - how far down the totem pole is Pacioretty? i'll admit i'm usually less high on him than most, but i am liking him so far this year, and he's still so young. If he becomes a consistent 40 goal scorer, as habs captain, for many more years...I think he could do well in such a team.

 

[ottawa]

Subban does have a chance of being one of the best of all time when it's all said and done, but he still has another 12-15 years left to play, I think some of you are jumping the gun here by saying he's already really high in the all-time ranking.

On another note, who is Joliat and why does he belong in the top 6?

 

[Teufelsdreck]

Hey, I'm trying to make an all-time roster, with proper chemistry or playing styles going together...no doubt I got some or a lot of it wrong. I also need help with the 6th defenseman. I also have no idea who the **** Joliat is, but apparently he belongs there so if someone can explain me why he's so good, that'd be nice.


Moore - Beliveau - M. Richard
Joliat - Lalonde - Lafleur
Shutt - Morenz - Cournoyer
Blake - H. Richard - Geoffrion

Harvey - Chelios
Robinson - Lapointe
Savard - Subban

Plante
Roy

Also who comes closest to cracking that all-time roster when we'll be making these all-time lists 50 years from now? Pacioretty, Price, Subban, Markov?

Pacioretty is a much better player than Shutt. (I saw both of them many times.) I imagine that Gainey would replace Joliat or Blake. (I saw Blake only a few times at the end of his career and of course I never saw Joliat.) I hate to leave out Jacques Laperriere, who was excellent defensively, as was Serge Savard. Geoffrion was not good defensively.

 

[Miller Time]

Price and Subban are on their way to being locks in the all-time roster.

Markov could arguably be in the top-6 conversation, especially if there is a cup ring won before he retires (if the all-time roster is weighted more on overall contribution vs height of performance while wearing the jersey, he's already ahead of Chelios imo... those early/mid 2000 habs teams were awful, yet stayed in/close to playoffs largely thanks to markov's underrated impact).

Pacioretty could crack that list as well if he keeps up his level of play for a few more years AND manages to show up in a few playoff series as an impact guy vs a complementary player.

 

[BenchBrawl]

It's doubtful Price will ever reach Roy, but in order to do it he really need to win at least one conn smythe trophy or a ridiculous strings of seasons with very high Hart voting.

Roy has two conn smythe trophies, 3 vezinas and better depth of vezina voting, better hart voting record as well with four seasons in the top 5 hart votes.

Both Roy and Plante have resumes that are so solid it's hard to crack them.Take note I'm completely ignoring everything Roy did in Colorado.

As for Subban, if he continues to play like this he will crack the top 6.I mean he's probably already on his way to get another top 3-4 Norris vote, and I don't see him slowing down in the next few years, this would be enough to get into the D-squad.

So in my opinion P.K. Subban is the one who is the most likely to crack that line-up.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Go to the All-Time Draft board if you want to learn about old school players.Almost every player in the Top 1000 players of all-time have a mini biography there.You can also use the draft lists to get a rough idea of the player's historical value, though take note that Wingers and Defensemen are being picked earlier than some superior center because of the depth of the center position.

Here's the specific thread where all the biographies are included: http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1149019

Here's the list of the last All-Time Draft to take place: http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1877363

Here is a bunch of lists of Top X players of Y position of All-Time made by some people with a good knowledge of hockey history: http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1487867

 

[BenchBrawl]

Moore – Beliveau – Geoffrion
Blake – Lach – M. Richard
Joliat – Morenz – Lafleur
Shutt – H. Richard – Cournoyer
Lalonde

Robinson – Harvey
Savard – Lapointe
Cleghorn – Chelios
Lappierre

Plante
Roy

So no, not yet. Subban and Price definitely could if they keep this pace up.

Cleghorn and Chelios are great players but most of their career weren't with the Montreal Canadiens.I would choose guys like Bouchard, JC Tremblay and Laperriere ahead of them strictly in the Montreal sense.

Also Newsy Lalonde takes Elmer Lach's place.I keep Lach as a spare.Morenz on the 2nd line if we do it in a hierarchical way, but I guess you didn't since you put Geoffrion ahead of Richard and Lafleur so nevermind.

I would find a place for Gainey and leave Shutt out.

For completeness I pick Scotty Bowman as the coach.

 

[BenchBrawl]

I think Subban has a realistic chance at being top 2 ever for habs dman.

Ouff, you're very optimistic.

I don't think Subban could crack Larry Robinson.His resume is too complete, too good and he had all the intangibles to go along with it.Robinson is pretty much the perfect defenseman in style, a bit like Denis Potvin.Of course there are some freaks like Orr who are better but just talking about style.

As for Harvey, not a chance for Subban.

 

[Beendair Donedat]

Love Subban but he doesn't touch the Big Bird. Larry could and did do everything. He could hit like a truck, he could defend with the best, he was talented offensively and he could beat anyone in the league with his fists. Subban although a great player, isn't nearly the defender that Robinson was... Christ Robinson was averaging about a plus 60 for the first decade of his career!

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Hey, I'm trying to make an all-time roster, with proper chemistry or playing styles going together...no doubt I got some or a lot of it wrong. I also need help with the 6th defenseman. I also have no idea who the **** Joliat is, but apparently he belongs there so if someone can explain me why he's so good, that'd be nice.


Moore - Beliveau - M. Richard
Joliat - Lalonde - Lafleur
Shutt - Morenz - Cournoyer
Blake - H. Richard - Geoffrion

Harvey - Chelios
Robinson - Lapointe
Savard - Subban

Plante
Roy

Also who comes closest to cracking that all-time roster when we'll be making these all-time lists 50 years from now? Pacioretty, Price, Subban, Markov?

Man, you know its gotta be tough when Ken Dryden is a maybe on this list.

Plante, Roy or Dryden... you can't lose with any of them. I'd go with Dryden over Roy though. His entire career was here and he was far more consistent than Roy was. The man has almost as many shutouts as he does losses. As for those talking about Price - he's not there, not yet anyway.

No way Moore is on the first line and Morenz should be on the 2nd.

Sprague Cleghorn might warrant a spot on the blueline. He was considered the best blueliner in the game in the league's early years. Some of those years weren't with us though and I haven't done enough research on him but his name definitely comes to mind.

 

[Rock On]

It's so hard to compare differents eras. I think the best metric to calculate it would be the impact players had when they played and the pool of players who were playing the game during that era.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

It's so hard to compare differents eras. I think the best metric to calculate it would be the impact players had when they played and the pool of players who were playing the game during that era.

That's the only way to do it.

Would Doug Harvey be a star in today's game? No. But he was the best and most innovative blueliner (maybe even player) of his era. That's why he's considered one of the best blueliners to ever play. And there are still a few oldtimers out there who will tell you that he was the best player they ever saw. Not a popular opinion but there are some out there who believe it.

 

[SnapVirus]

Max Pacioretty – Jean Beliveau – Guy Lafleur
Steve Shutt – Henri Richard – Maurice Richard
Dickie Moore – Elmer Lach – Yvan Cournoyer
Bob Gainey – Jacques Lemaire – Bernard Geoffrion

Robinson – Harvey
Subban – Markov
Savard – Lapointe

Roy
Price

 

[yianik]

Price is no where near Roy!! Roy was a playoff beasts.

Hell man, 10 straight OT wins in the 1993 play-offs ? That's one of those records you could see never being beaten. Roy could take this team to a Stanley Cup. Don't get me wrong, Price is outstanding and he will break team records, but Roy was better than Dryden as Dryden was a very good goalie on a great team but Roy was a great goalie on a good team. Price is also great, but he needs to steal a few play off games and win a Cup to even be compared to Roy.

 

[S Bah]

Hey, I'm trying to make an all-time roster, with proper chemistry or playing styles going together...no doubt I got some or a lot of it wrong. I also need help with the 6th defenseman. I also have no idea who the **** Joliat is, but apparently he belongs there so if someone can explain me why he's so good, that'd be nice.


Moore - Beliveau - M. Richard
Joliat - Lalonde - Lafleur
Shutt - Morenz - Cournoyer
Blake - H. Richard - Geoffrion

Harvey - Chelios
Robinson - Lapointe
Savard - Subban

Plante
Roy

Also who comes closest to cracking that all-time roster when we'll be making these all-time lists 50 years from now? Pacioretty, Price, Subban, Markov?

Where is Dickie Moore? Has to have been absolutely instrumental in the 50's dynasty.

 

[Mrb1p]

Price already has four top 10 vezina years, two top ten Hart years, including a win, triple gold, calder cup, multiple Habs record... And he's not even 30 yet.

Sorry Plante and Dryden, Price holds spot #2, for now.

 

[MXD]

Where is Dickie Moore? Has to have been absolutely instrumental in the 50's dynasty.

Eh...on the first line, where he belongs... ?! I mean I COULD see Joliat there, because his career was freakishly long for his time, and he actually won a Hart (like Blake).

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Eh...on the first line, where he belongs... ?! I mean I COULD see Joliat there, because his career was freakishly long for his time, and he actually won a Hart (like Blake).

I don't think Moore would be the first line. I'd go with Blake.

 

[CupInSIX]

Eh...on the first line, where he belongs... ?! I mean I COULD see Joliat there, because his career was freakishly long for his time, and he actually won a Hart (like Blake).

maybe he thought that was Dominic Moore


Anyway you guys put your 1930s crew out there, my team will steamroll them so hard their hair will start parting at the side.