All-Time Draft #11 Line-Up Assassination Thread

[Dipsy Doodle]

Last review of the night...

*First of all, it's great to have Champagne Wishes/doctordark back in the draft.

Thanks for the warm welcome GBC, and double thanks for writing all these reviews. It must be terribly time-consuming, but the ATD's better off for it. Your effort and critical eye are very much appreciated.

And it's good to be back.

*Second of all, that's the best 1-2 centre punch in the draft. Morenz is an elite first line centre. No. 4 on my list. Schmidt's No. 10 on my list for centres. And you don't have to worry about line-matching, either. Morenz is very good defensively. Schmidt's as good defensively as any centre in the draft. And he's really, really good offensively, too.
*It's a scary thought when Guy Carbonneau might be the second-best defensive centre on a team. But he might just be that with Schmidt on your squad.
*raleh and I are big Glen Skov fans. We were prepared to pick him until you snuck him out from under our nose. (Wasn't the first time you did that). That's a very tough fourth line to play against.
*Neal Broten's a fine 13th forward. Good character. Will handle the role well. And he have to love his hockey sense when he gets in the line-up.

Last ATD I was a little thin down the middle and I've ensured that won't be an issue this time around. This group can go toe-to-toe at both ends of the ice with any center group in the draft.

In the line-up, Broten's technically the 13th forward, but I think he and Skov will rotate depending on how much offense I'll want from my bottom 6 vs. the need to have a big defensive center in the mix.

*That first line is probably the best in their own zone of any first line in the draft. It's a big asset to have. I don't quite buy into Datsyuk as a front-line LW. He's had a couple big years and a big playoffs, but that's it.

In the strictest sense, because of his relatively short career Datsyuk wouldn't be a 1st line LW at this point. But the peak he's had is incredible. Over the last half-decade, he's the league's best stickhandler, the best defensive forward, one of the best skaters, and one of the best playmakers. He's among the most potent combinations of elite offense and defense at LW in the draft, and has no shortage of smarts, grit, or playoff experience.

For all Ovechkin's All-Star Team selections and scoring exploits, if I wanted to win the Cup today, I'd take Datsyuk's all-around game, teamwork, and post-season poise.

Moreover, he was one of the best fits for Morenz after Joliat was taken (two-way LWs with speed, toughness, passing, character, dangle, and offense aren't too abundant), and my primary objective for that line is to create the ideal environment for Howie to work his magic. I mean, is Chris Kunitz really a top line NHL player? Probably not. But he's a better fit for Crosby than any number of more legitimate 1st line LWs in the league.

Aurie had two seasons in the top 10 for goals, three seasons for the top 10 in assists, and top in the top 10 for points. That's the resume for a good second line RW.

All top 10 placings are not equal though. He finished 1st in goals one year, almost certainly would've finished 1st in points in a different year if he hadn't been injured at the end of the season, and finished 1st in playoff points. Between '33-'34 and '36-'37 he was an elite goal scorer, playmaker, and defensive conscience, and the two times he didn't finish in the top 10 in scoring, he only missed the cut by a couple points. Guts and feistiness to spare too.

I figure he's a bottom-end 1st liner, but could click well with Morenz playing as a much better version of Johnny Gagnon.

I like Punch Broadbent more, and while Broadbent might not be as skilled as Aurie, he'll muck, grind and hit, and allow Morenz to concentrate on offence.

Broadbent and Aurie strike me as more similar than most people would give Aurie credit for, both in playing style and accomplishments. Broadbent's more of a punisher and board-man and Aurie more of a well-rounded offensive player, but otherwise quite comparable.

While conventional wisdom would put Punch at 1st LW because of his bulldog mentality and ability to create space, I'm not sure if that's what Morenz needs. Both Joliat and Gagnon have said that passing wasn't Morenz' strong suit, and they generally played with one another until they could get the puck to Morenz for a rush. It's less aesthetically appealing to have 3 smaller guys on the top line and 3 bruisers on the 2nd, but Morenz never needed a bruiser to make room for him; he played with fast, tenacious players who needed quality passing to get him the puck on the fly.

That said, if the speedball line starts getting muscled too much (though none of Datsyuk, Morenz, or Aurie seem the type to get intimidated or limited by physical play - Morenz injuries aside), I won't hesitate to move Old Elbows up and have Aurie play a Bobby Bauer role alongside Schmidt.

*If you do keep those lines, I like what you've given for Schmidt. Broadbent's tough and mean. He's small, but a lot of small guys are picked for their grit. He plays big. That's the important thing. Northcott has a pretty good track record for performance. But that line is all about Schmidt - one of the best two-way players, and one of the smartest players, to ever play the game. (He was top 30 in my HOH Top 100 list. I think he's top 20 for pappy).

They should be hell for opposition defenses to handle along the boards (what with Northcott and Broadbent both listed as the best corner men for their respective decades and Schmidt's renowned aggressiveness and determination), and they don't give up anything in their own zone either.

What the Morenz line can't fly by, Schmidt and Co. should run over.

*Interesting to see the first and the third pairings. Savard-Cameron and Burrows-Sjoberg are polar opposites. Savard's the supremely steady two-way defenceman. Cameron's an offensive force out there who has one of the most dangerous weapons in the draft: a curved shot. Burrows is the quintessential steady third pairing guy. Sjoberg's a small, ultra-skilled pappy favourite.

I usually shy away from pairings with only one specific purpose - each duo should be able to hold their own in the defensive end and keep the opposition honest in transition.

Each pairing of mine has a player who could be considered the best defensive defenseman of his era (Savard, Mantha, Burrows). As for their partners, Cameron's a gamebreaker from the back end, Heller's size, strength, and speed make him tough to handle in any situation, and Sjoberg's a smart QB who can dictate the pace of the game as well as just about any 5-6 defender in the draft. And none of them are a liability either.

*Don't know if Regehr's good enough for this level, but I love what he brings to the table as a No. 7 in terms of character and a hatred of losing.

I dunno. Has there been a better pure shutdown defenseman this decade? He's in the discussion, at the very least. I'd take that on my team as a #7 any day.

*From the start of the draft, the goalie tandem we envisioned was Smith-Lehman. raleh really wanted Smith for the fourth round, and this is the first time he hasn't had Lehman. It's sacrilege. I think Lehman's an outstanding back-up, one of the best in the draft. Smith never had a heavy workload. Give him 50 games, give Lehman 30 games, and then let Battlin' Billy do his thing in the playoffs.

Definitely on the same page here.

*Pete Green's an excellent coach. Again, a solid, second-tier coach with a history of winning.

I only wish there were more info on him.

Ultimately, I wanted my team to have no shortage of fortitude or responsible play, and I figure we can role 4 lines that are as good defensively as any in the draft, with Morenz, Schmidt, and Cameron leading the offensive charge and surrounded by players who can bring out the best in them.

 

[Sturminator]

- I agree that Dutton's been underrated in these things for quite a while now but I don't know how much luck you're going to have in convincing others of that.

- Overall I think you got good value on your defense but if I had to point to an area that's deficient on your team relative to the rest of your team it would be #s 2-4 on the defense. That's not to say they're bad in their roles so much as it shows the strength of the rest of your roster.

Thanks for the review, pit. I've been pretty busy, myself, until today. Regarding the defense, Hap Day is a known commodity in the #2 role. I see little sense in pimping him. I've got him in the 45-55 range (depending on mood), among defensemen all-time, which puts him on the lower end of guys who truly belong as #2 ATD defenseman if we assume (extremely roughly) that numbers 1-28 are #1s and 29-56 are #2s. At any rate, he's playing next to Doug Harvey, and I think they compliment each other well in terms of bringing the full package of speed, physicality, PO experience, offense and defense. In truth, I've got Jan Suchy rated higher, but his draft position was still depressed going into ATD#11.

Jim Neilson is a strong #4 defenseman. If you think he and Day are the weak links, I can only imagine your opinion of the team is pretty high. The Chief has been criminally underrated in the ATD to have only just now broken into 2nd pairing status...but what's not to like? He was a very big (6'2" 205/210 was a giant in the 60's), physical, solid skating stay-at-home defenseman who could move the puck (4, 5, 8, 8 in defenseman scoring), had a long career, and was recognized a couple of times as being one of the best defensemen in the league - finishing top-5 in Norris voting twice (and was, according to HO's research, a 3rd team all-star in another season). As a fan of the Rangers during Neilson's career, I can tell you that he was known for his consistency and was pretty much unanimously regarded as a bonafide "1st pairing" defenseman for most of his career, which in the O6 era meant roughly top-10 status (though the latter part of his career also spanned into the post-expansion era).

Neilson compares extremely well to a whole lot of #4 defensemen in the league. How many top-5 Norris finishes does Sergei Zubov have? Two - the same as Neilson. Now, Zubov has a bunch of "good" years with fringe Norris finishes (8th, 9th, 12th, 13th, etc.), but many of these were amassed during the years when he was a sieve defensively (Sergei Gonchar has gotten quite a few fringe Norris votes over the years for playing much the same game), and we have the benefit of much deeper Norris voting data during Zubov's career. Neilson wasn't the kind of player who had three great seasons and then sucked in the intervening years. If we had the benefit of deeper Norris voting during Neilson's career, I'm sure he'd pop up quite a few more times in the 5-15 range among league defensemen. He's no worse than an average #4 (and a good complement to Suchy), on the same level as guys like Wentworth, Hitchman, Green, Heller, etc.

 

[Sturminator]

I know it's a bit late in the process, but I've finally got time for a few reviews today, so here goes:

Detroit Red Wings
Coach: Tommy Ivan
spares: Paul Henderson, Marty Walsh

Sweeney Schriner - Ted Kennedy - Jarome Iginla
Paul Thompson - Marty Barry - Frank Foyston
Jack Walker - Phil Watson - Ron Ellis
Craig Simpson - Edgar Laprade - Ken Wharram

Red Kelly - Fern Flaman
Bob Goldham - Edward Ivanov
Barry Beck - Tommy Anderson
Tomas Jonsson

Dominik Hasek
Percy LeSueur​

Very strong team, overall. A few random comments:

- this is one of those teams you look at and think "Yeah, they're pretty good", and then you see Hasek in net and think ****. Sort of like HO's Canadiens in ATD#10.

- 2nd and 3rd lines are both outstanding units. Just a lot of talent. I was chomping at the bit to draft Paul Thompson when I saw him slipping, but then again, I'm not sure what I'd have done with him with Delvecchio and LeClair already entrenched on my scoringlines. You got a hell of a bargain there.

- in spite of the unit's obvious skill, I'm not sure who the digger on the 2nd line is. Barry wasn't small, but has no reputation for physicality, and although Thompson was an excellent two-way player, he again was not a digger as far as I know. Foyston clearly was not. Of course, swapping Ellis and Foyston would add the necessary jam to the 2nd line and reunite Foyston and longtime linemate Jack Walker. Something to think about if you come up against a really physical 2nd unit.

- the 1st line isn't the swiftest unit in the draft. Red Kelly may end up outskating his forwards sometimes. The 2nd line may actually benefit more from Kelly's presence than the 1st. Not sure how you plan to use your various units, though Ivan is definitely the right coach to get the most out of Kelly's ability.

- I agree with pit that 2nd pairing puckmoving is an issue, especially considering the strength and depth of scoring among the forwards. I don't really have any suggestions on how to address this.

- you're generally very good about not overdrafting Red Wings, but Bob Goldham is a guy who I think could go 50 picks lower and no one would notice.

 

[God Bless Canada]

*When did Messier say Kovalev was a "thoroughbred?" If it was in the 1994 playoffs, I would have agreed with him. Kovalev was awesome on the second line. I wouldn't say he was one of the most crucial guys - Leetch, Richter, Messier, Graves, Larmer and Zubov would be ahead of Kovalev - but Kovy was dynamic. He looked like a future megastar in that post-season. The problem is that more times than not since 1994, he has left you wanting more. Much more. I don't think Messier would have called Kovalev from 1995 to 1997, or 2003-04, a thoroughbred. Unless Messier was overhyping a teammate.
*International numbers? I love the WJC, it's the one international tournament I legitimately care about. But that does nothing for me as an evaluator for the ATD. Hockey has the least relevant World Championships in sports. Again, a player of his fantastic skill should be well over a point-per-game in any situation.
*I still think a No. 7 defenceman is a must at this level. And I think you need your third pairing defencemen to be able to log legit minutes. Less than 10 minutes a game at this level isn't a good idea. Your other guys will be tired by the end of the year.
*I've never been a big fan of outright platoon situations for goalies. My No. 1 will always get at least 50 games. But Vachon's the right guy to have play behind Cheevers.

Being in my first ATD, I was looking forward to your review GBC. In response to some of your points.

-Kovalev is a true enigma and one of the most controversial players of our time and maybe in hockey history. Clearly, there are two opposing views on his play and on his career. You call him a p**sy and Mark Messier calls him a thoroughbred. Kovalev was one of the most crucial players on the 1994 Rangers Cup winner alongside Messier and Adam Graves and two years ago was pretty much responsible for the Habs first place finish in the East. You dismiss his playoff record (98 points in 116 games) but don't mention his similar record internationally (44 points in 59 games). Simply put when the stakes are higher he plays at a high level, and paired alongside countrymen Malkin and Yakushev I don't see that changing.

-I agree on your assumption about Orr-Tremblay and will probably move Johnson up to the spot alongside Orr and put Tremblay back with Harris as my second pairing.

-I plan on playing Magnuson and my third defense pairing a little less than ten minutes a game. When you have Orr, Johnson, Tremblay, Harris as your top four you're not going to rely on your 5 and 6 very much. By limiting Magnuson's ice time to that amount I don't have many worries about him keeping up, especially considering the amount of ice-time he used to log in Chicago. As for a number seven defensemen with the amount of ice-time my top four will log I decided that a scoring forward would be the way to go (Tardif). Each of my top-four consistently played 25 minutes plus a game throughout their career. And truth be told if Orr gets hurt, who is available as a low-round pick that can even begin to approach his contribution.

-Tardif and Palffy are nice goal-scoring insurance against an injury up front.

-In the regular season, Cheevers and Vachon will split the schedule evenly. I think the two of them represent one of the better tandems in the ATD so why not use them both. It also gives me some options around playoff time, although Cheevers will probably be the guy.

-As for my head coach. I might agree with you on Babcock but if the Red Wings win the Cup in a couple of weeks, I think it's hard to argue with his record. That was the reason I backed him up with Cook, who with his unmatched coaching record in the AHL I think makes the ideal assistant coach, in that he brings in experience what Babcock lacks.

 

[Canadiens Fan]

*When did Messier say Kovalev was a "thoroughbred?" If it was in the 1994 playoffs, I would have agreed with him. Kovalev was awesome on the second line. I wouldn't say he was one of the most crucial guys - Leetch, Richter, Messier, Graves, Larmer and Zubov would be ahead of Kovalev - but Kovy was dynamic. He looked like a future megastar in that post-season. The problem is that more times than not since 1994, he has left you wanting more. Much more. I don't think Messier would have called Kovalev from 1995 to 1997, or 2003-04, a thoroughbred. Unless Messier was overhyping a teammate.
*International numbers? I love the WJC, it's the one international tournament I legitimately care about. But that does nothing for me as an evaluator for the ATD. Hockey has the least relevant World Championships in sports. Again, a player of his fantastic skill should be well over a point-per-game in any situation.
*I still think a No. 7 defenceman is a must at this level. And I think you need your third pairing defencemen to be able to log legit minutes. Less than 10 minutes a game at this level isn't a good idea. Your other guys will be tired by the end of the year.
*I've never been a big fan of outright platoon situations for goalies. My No. 1 will always get at least 50 games. But Vachon's the right guy to have play behind Cheevers.

http://www.canada.com/topics/sports...=6a2f26ae-c294-4c8b-8d6c-4f859dad44e0&k=40826

Gretzky extols Habs' power play, By The Gazette (Montreal)March 7, 2008

But when Gretzky was told that Alex Kovalev was the key to the power play's success, he said he could understand that. Gretzky said that his good friend and longtime teammate Mark Messier described Kovalev as a thoroughbred.

The Great One went on to say that the combination of Kovalev's skill, natural ability and work ethic make him a candidate for the Hart Trophy.

http://www.nytimes.com/1997/09/23/sports/hockey-kovalev-is-pivotal-man-in-rangers-plans.html

New York Times, September 23rd, 1997

Kovalev was Messier's New York linemate for much of their five seasons together, and Messier frequently praised Kovalev's skill and hockey spirit.

 

[VanIslander]

I recall when Gretzky was playing for NY and the Rangers were sucking big time for a long stretch, Wayne was asked why he thought the team was struggling and he cited Kovalev's injury as "taking the wheel off the car", that his playmaking was key for them.

The knocks on Alex are WAAAY overplayed. No, he is NOT a finisher, but he has made countless exceptional plays and HIS CAREER PLAYOFF SCORING is very good, he does PRODUCE when it matters most. The Montreal media can go just off Mount Royal the next time they try to portray him as in any way unreliable.

 

[Sturminator]

Kovalev was unbelievable on NHL 96 for the Genesis. Except for Fedorov (who could actually bump into the goalie and still score), he was as good as any player in the game.

 

[seventieslord]

Those signature moves in NHL 96 and 97 were awesome.

Deke and Deliver FTW!

 

[Leaf Lander]

Coach: Punch Imlach
Captain:Jean Beliveau
Ast:Bob Davidson
Ast:Jacques Laperriere
Ast:Tim Horton


PP Unit 1:
#22 Steve Shutt,LW-#4 Jean Beliveau-#8 Recchi
#7 Tim Horton #15 Tomas Kaberle, D

PP Unit 2:
#26 Naslund 25 Nieuwendyk-89 Alexander Mogilny
#2 Jacques Laperriere-#33 Zdeno Chara-

PK Unit 1
#11 Murray Oliver#11 Bob Nevin
#7 Tim Horton -#26 Allan Stanley

PK Unit 2
#17 Bob Davidson #25 Nieuwendyk
#2 Jacques Laperriere-#21 Bobby Baun

#22 Shutt,LW-#4 Jean Beliveau-#8 Recchi,RW
#26 Mats Naslund #25 Nieuwendyk-89 Alexander Mogilny
#17 Bob Davidson,LW-Vincent Lecavalier,C-Rick Vaive, RW
#14 Dave Reid,LW -#11 Murray Oliver, C-#11 Bob Nevin,RW
#14 Stu Barnes,LW -#12 Eric Staal,C

#7 Tim Horton -#26 Allan Stanley
#2 Jacques Laperriere-#21 Bobby Baun
#33 Zdeno Chara-#15 Tomas Kaberle, D
#26 Mike Milbury

#1 Turk Broda
#31 Curtis Joseph, G

 

[Leaf Lander]

*Last of the team reviews. As is the case with camper's team, this team hasn't been posted yet. This team also needs to make three more selections. If any necessary amendments need to be made, we will do so.
*Even though LL waited until the eighth round to select his second forward, he does have a good assortment of scorers on his team. Any line with Jean Beliveau is going to be a dangerous line. Le Gros Bill is surrounded by a couple good offensive players who aren't afraid to do the dirty work in order to succeed. Shutt's a very good goal scorer who goes to the front of the net. Recchi's adept at making plays or finishing them off. He could be a member of the 1,500 point club by this time next year. And Recchi's very good in the corners, too. This line will get a lot of goals.
*The second line does have some potential. A lot depends on Mogilny, though. He's one of the biggest underachievers in the draft. We harp on Kovalev for Kovy's inconsistent, often apathetic play. Mogilny might be an even bigger waste of talent. He had the potential to be one of the top offensive RWs ever. I thought he had more offensive ability than Bure. But Mogilny didn't have Bure's passion for scoring goals. If the enigmatic, somewhat eccentric Mogilny is a motivated Mogilny, he'll dominate. But I don't think a team coached by Punch Imlach is a favourable climate for Mogilny. Nieuwendyk's a valuable guy to have for his leadership, face-off ability and goal-scoring ability at centre. One of the best puck-tippers in the draft. Naslund has excellent offensive ability, and he's fearless. But the guy who will determine this line's success is one of the most difficult-to-read players of all-time.
*Bob Davidson doesn't seem to fit on the third line. That third line could be a powerful third scoring line on a team that could use a third scoring line. Lecavalier is the big, skilled centre that every team has craved. Consistency has been an issue in his career, but no debate over what he's capable of. Rick Vaive is a goal-scoring power winger. Bob Davidson is an average-sized grinder who was never much of a point-producer outside of the war years. Lecavalier and Vaive's presence says to me that this is a power scoring line. Davidson's presence says it's a two-way line, momentum line or defensive line.
*I moved Stu Barnes to the No. 4 LW spot for the sake of this review. Barnes did play a lot of LW in his career. The year he topped 60 points, he had "The luckiest man in the NHL" role: he played LW alongside Francis and Jagr. (That's not a shot at Stu, it just reflects the fact that every player in the game would have wanted that role). Barnes-Oliver-Nevin is a very good two-way line. Barnes isn't an overwhelming guy offensively - he never topped 50 points outside of 97-98 - but he can make plays. Oliver and Nevin are very good two-way players by anyone's standard. They're also LL faves.
*LL went top-heavy on defence. Five of his first seven picks were defencemen. The only thing this defence is lacking is an elite offensive guy. But when you can get three mainstays from what many herald as the best defensive team ever (the 62-67 Leafs), you're a very happy person.
*Horton's one of the best defensive defencemen of all-time. He's a guy who, if given the green light, can make an impact in the offensive zone, too. The same thing goes for Laperriere. Not a force offensively, but if he gets a chance, he can make an impact. It's an excellent top pairing, with a guy I rate as a top 15 defenceman ever (Horton) and a guy who's right on the borderline for a No. 1/2 defenceman spot (Laperriere). It's also a pairing that can log shut-down minutes.
*The second pairing provides stability, and they can also play somewhat of a shutdown role. The steady play of Stanley is offset by the robust, physical game of Baun. Some might have concerns about Stanley's mobility issues, but he's a very, very smart defenceman with good size. He always figured out a way to play against the opposition's best.
*Chara anchors the third pairing with Kabarle. Chara's a force. He's so big and dominant out there. Footspeed might be an issue in a few instances, if he's facing a line loaded with great speed an hockey sense. (That was an issue in 2006 in the Ottawa-Buffalo series). But his size, smarts, reach, positioning and aggressiveness make him a very tough nut to crack. Kabarle brings a good puck-moving presence.
*Broda's the man in net. One of the best clutch goalies of all-time. He backstopped five Cup champions. He backstopped the first post-26 team to win three straight Cup championships. And he did it even though the late 40s Leafs had a good, but not a great, defence. (With all due respect to Jimmy Thomson, he is the worst No. 1 defenceman on a dynasty). Joseph gives this team a very good back-up who'll play 20 to 25 games a year.
*I'm probably a bigger Punch Imlach fan than most. Give him the right team, and he's an awesome coach. I think he's one of the top 10 coaches ever. I'm just not certain whether he's one of the top 10 coaches for an ATD. he needs the right type of players to succeed. On this team, he clashed with Baun towards the end of Baun's Toronto tenure. And Mogilny and Lecavalier are train wrecks waiting to happen. Imlach's as tough and demanding as any coach in the draft. We'll see whether it pays dividends, or whether it creates big problems.

Toronto Maple Leafs
GM: Leaf Lander
Coaches: Punch Imlach

Steve Shutt-Jean Beliveau-Mark Recchi
Mats Naslund-Joe Nieuwendyk-Alexander Mogilny
Bob Davidson-Vincent Lecavalier-Rick Vaive
Stu Barnes-Murray Oliver-Bob Nevin

Tim Horton-Jacques Laperriere
Allan Stanley-Bobby Baun
Zdeno Chara-Tomas Kaberle
xxx

Turk Broda
Curtis Joseph

changed the team somewhat

I am 6 weeks behind