Speculation: All Coaching Talk - Part 2

[Sky04]

I don't think I was though. Plenty of players on the team made mistakes inside the system, and sure Drouin had a few of those too. Those are forgivable and people would be right to get on Cooper for punishing young players because of them. I am talking about something different, when Drouin would purposefully ignore his defensive responsibilities and take chances cheating up the boards. That's the type of thing that drives coaches mad.

Remember that amazing OT goal Drouin had against Colorado? It was such a beauty that we ignored his previous shift. On that shift, Drouin tried to cherry pick a break away and got caught letting an Av's player get in behind him for a grade A scoring chance. In the post game show Cooper was asked about the amazing Drouin goal, and you could see it all over his face and how he answered the question that he was really bothered by it. I say this as someone who has never liked Cooper, but you can't let players freely do whatever they want without consequence.

Hence the hypocrisy, if this was the team M.O I could get behind that, it sends a message up and down the lineup that this type of stuff has no place on the team.

Then Killorn goes and misses an assignment, Johnson decides to coast a shift, Stamkos gives up a gamewinning turnover, how many times has Palat tried to dangle crossing our blueline only to lose it?

Not only that but you cater to different players skillsets which Cooper doesn't seem to know. Do you turn Patrick Kane into a 2-way forward or do you let him play his game to cater around that? We had the resources to play around Drouin's weakness while letting him play his strengths (see 2016 playoffs) and that was a difference maker. It's not like he was supposed to be Ovechkin ala a winger leading a team, he was a 1B/#2 scoring threat that could play behind more responsible forwards.

 

[These Are The Days]

Most of this has nothing to do with your original point about offense.

Cooper buries unproven offensive talent.

The offense is just a major part of it. The other 7 things I listed are just other issues as to why I think Cooper is totally screwed this year because they are major hindrances. Losing arguably your most skilled forward? Losing your #1 goaltender? Losing an almost 20 goal 4C? Between all that and knowing that 70% of our team is completely complacent lineup of black holes (after 3 years of watching) and these damning moves by Yzerman, Cooper is completely and utterly screwed. Dead. Man. Walking. The fact he handled prospects like he thought he was Viktor Tikhonov didn't help either but we are long since past that. We're literally at the point that we have to pray that Cory Conacher wakes up and realizes he's a 50 point player at the NHL level because Hedman, Stamkos and Kucherov ain't carrying this team for a shaky Vasilevskiy while Johnson gets banged up and Palat hibernates until after New Years like he always does.

Coop is gonna be lucky to make it past Christmas with all the bad habits this team has developed because Yzerman WILL NOT make changes to it. And the changes he has made has done nothing to improve the lineup today with the exception of losing Filppula. The fact we could sustain such a winning streak without him only proves the extent of his uselessness.

 

[Sky04]

Anyways most of this is old discussion, make or break year for him imo. One more 3 month slump to start the season and get this guy outta here, clearly an issue motivating players.

 

[Steazy Doo]

Hence the hypocrisy, if this was the team M.O I could get behind that, it sends a message up and down the lineup that this type of stuff has no place on the team.

Then Killorn goes and misses an assignment, Johnson decides to coast a shift, Stamkos gives up a gamewinning turnover, how many times has Palat tried to dangle crossing our blueline only to lose it?

Not only that but you cater to different players skillsets which Cooper doesn't seem to know. Do you turn Patrick Kane into a 2-way forward or do you let him play his game to cater around that? We had the resources to play around Drouin's weakness while letting him play his strengths (see 2016 playoffs) and that was a difference maker. It's not like he was supposed to be Ovechkin ala a winger leading a team, he was a 1B/#2 scoring threat that could play behind more responsible forwards.

So you do concede that Cooper changed and let him play his own game.

So while the way Cooper handled Drouin prior to the sit-out wasn't good, he did change his philosophy with handling unproven players with barely any meaningful pro experience (Dotchin, Point). He even said himself he would handle it differently now, and how he thought a lot about his approach.

So why do we keep using this as a reason he should be fired? He corrected bad habits and is willing to trust more and more guys who don't necessarily play a good two-way game, as we seen with Drouin's usage this year.



Cooper post Drouin situation is a whole different animal

 

[The Macho King]

Anyways most of this is old discussion, make or break year for him imo. One more 3 month slump to start the season and get this guy outta here, clearly an issue motivating players.

This - his seat is toasty. I figured he'd have a free year last year after the ECF run (whether deserved or not), but he used up that year by not making the playoffs. If we're close to Thanksgiving and around .500, I expect Yzerman to send Coop a pack of Bazooka Joe and say adieu.

 

[These Are The Days]

Anyways most of this is old discussion, make or break year for him imo. One more 3 month slump to start the season and get this guy outta here, clearly an issue motivating players.

There's something going on. But I agree here. If we start poorly (which I fully expect us to) he's done and Todd Richards will be taking over. But if we believe the words of Nikita Kucherov then the motivation issue isn't coaching related. I believe him because this LOOKS like a complacent team.

 

[These Are The Days]

This - his seat is toasty. I figured he'd have a free year last year after the ECF run (whether deserved or not), but he used up that year by not making the playoffs. If we're close to Thanksgiving and around .500, I expect Yzerman to send Coop a pack of Bazooka Joe and say adieu.

I sincerely don't believe we have a lineup capable of doing that. It's as much about needing difference in the lineup as it is needing difference makers. At this point Cooper is in control of his own fate: He needs to ensure that guys like Sergachev and Koekkoek need to make the team defensively and that he gives guys like Conacher and Gourde an actual chance to stick around. They need to. I'd also suggest going along with a forward prospect like Howden, Joseph, Cirelli or Raddysh and see if we cannot get a redux of Brayden Point.

We have easily the deepest prospect pool in the NHL (if not we are top 5) and it's time we use it.

If he were to do that and fail I'd at least come to his defense and say "Well at least he tried something different" and argue the point that with young/inexperienced players comes an initial struggle. But if he goes with the old guard and rolls like it's 2015 plus Kunitz and Point/minus Filppula Boyle and miserably fails (which I'd fully expect it to) then I'm going to have ZERO sympathy and call for his head.

I'll sympathize and defend him to the death for last year because I don't believe all of it was his fault. That he really was dealt a bad hand of bad luck and I can argue that he really did make the best out of terrible circumstances by missing the playoffs by only a point with an AHL team (carried by Drouin nevertheless) and even rationalize that Callahan and Stamkos travelling with the team regathered our previously fragile psyche when they were gone. We were indeed a rudderless ship and it needed a captain. I don't find it a coincidence that we started winning once we got the captain and first mate back into the building with team.

But this year he controls the transition.

If this is going to be a transition year (fine I'll deal with it as long as we make the playoffs) I want to see an ACTUAL transition to the next generation of players instead of Namestnikov sabotaging every goddamn odd man rush he is a part of or Killorn/Callahan going AWOL for 3 weeks.

The only thing stopping that is Cooper and I AM NOT going to have that because Yzerman has not made any productive moves of his own to help the situation.

 

[DFC]

Any Cooper sentiment at this moment in time in Lightning nation if very toxic. If you are leaning only slightly towards firing Cooper you are currently pro-Cooper

The entire Drouin situation is very frustrating. The only possible scenario where his use is excusable is if there was some major issues behind the scenes. There are some happenings which justify his misuse, but since it's not in the spotlight all we can do is speculate.

BTW, Kucherov got the Drouin treatment too. It didn't last too long, the west coast trip which forged "the triplet line" forced Cooper to keep Kucherov with Palat and Johnson. That was a magical season, Kucherov murdered the league with less than 15 minutes average per night.

I'm not sure how this doesn't count as further evidence to the problem.

Kucherov has been an underutilized weapon until this past season. You don't play a top-20 NHL scorer < 15 minutes per night.

 

[These Are The Days]

I'm not sure how this doesn't count as further evidence to the problem.

Kucherov has been an underutilized weapon until this past season. You don't play a top-20 NHL scorer < 15 minutes per night.

I don't know what it is but he has an impossible fascination with playing everyone an almost equal amount of time.

 

[Sky04]

There's something going on. But I agree here. If we start poorly (which I fully expect us to) he's done and Todd Richards will be taking over. But if we believe the words of Nikita Kucherov then the motivation issue isn't coaching related. I believe him because this LOOKS like a complacent team.

Complacency is an issue with dun dun dun....coaching.

 

[DFC]

There's something going on. But I agree here. If we start poorly (which I fully expect us to) he's done and Todd Richards will be taking over. But if we believe the words of Nikita Kucherov then the motivation issue isn't coaching related. I believe him because this LOOKS like a complacent team.

?? Kucherov's comments on Cooper weren't exactly glowing.

On one hand you're saying we have a handful of unmotivated players, yet you're ignoring how those unmotivated players never seemed to see their icetime reduced as a result. Hell, a broken wrist couldn't get Johnson out of the PP one-timer slot in 2015, so what's a little unmotivated play?

 

[DFC]

I don't know what it is but he has an impossible fascination with playing everyone an almost equal amount of time.

Except that's just not true in the least.

It's not about refusing to use "young" players. That's part of it. The other part is "offensively gifted." Cooper would rather run with Alex Killorn's safe, vanilla game than defer to a young, offensively gifted player. And at the first sign of struggles, we get the "it's not a developmental league," line.

Again. We can forget about the Drouin situation. How it was only last season that Nikita Kucherov started getting serious PP time is just ridiculous. How he played < 15 minutes per night in 14/15 while being 28th in scoring (without 1st PP minutes) and leading the ****ing league in +/- is equally ridiculous.

I mean, how the hell do you use Yanni effing Gourde, who's about to be a 26 year-old rookie, as evidence that Cooper does indeed trust young, offensively gifted players? HE'S 26! JAM was like 25 and benched when we needed goals in favor of Mr. Slow And Steady Wins The Race, Alex Killorn.

This is a problem. And we're nearing the end stages of it playing itself out again with Slater Koekkoek.

 

[MattM92]

I feel that Yzerman has changed the identity of this team since our SCF loss. The reason for that? Who knows. I do blame him for the philosophy shift for sure. If it is Yzerman turning the organization into one that Cooper wants, then I hope he is willing to carry that cross to the end. If Cooper crashes and burns then Yzerman has to go with him.

However, Cooper bears most of the blame for the team's performance. The GM gives you players and you have to use them to the best of their abilities. You don't strap a plow to a Ferrari so you can till your fields. Some players are offensive dynamos and some players are defensive oriented. Trying to jam square pegs into round holes isn't going to work for long.

Finally, I have a real issue with how skilled talent is developed by this organization, especially 1st round talent. It just doesn't make sense that of all the players we select in the draft, more 3-7 rounders make it then 1-2 rounders. The only 1st round pick who looks like he's going to live up to expectations with us is Vasi. That's Koekkoek, Drouin, Namestnikov, Connolly, and DeAngelo that all look like either busts or traded.

Had some good conversations on Twitter about that and someone made a good point. They said that the organization holds better talent to a higher (unfair?) standard. For example: at training camp they see a prospect they rate as a 9/10 perform like a 9/10. That's just status quo. But if a prospect they rate as a 5/10 performs like an 8/10? Wow! We can't send him down!

That actually makes a lot of sense based on what we've seen over the years. Koekkoek was the 2nd best defenseman we had in the ECF loss to Pittsburgh and then couldn't crack the roster 4 months later at training camp? That is just a head scratcher. And now he's on what is essentially a 'last chance' contract. Meanwhile Dotchin comes up, doesn't blow chunks, and now he's on the verge of getting a multi-year deal.

The first round pick curse we seem to have just can't be explained away. It isn't as if we are going off the board every year. Every player selected since Yzerman took over was a solid pick. We weren't taking 2nd rounders in the 1st. These were all legit 1st round talents. How is it that we've missed on so many of them?

 

[DFC]

I feel that Yzerman has changed the identity of this team since our SCF loss. The reason for that? Who knows. I do blame him for the philosophy shift for sure. If it is Yzerman turning the organization into one that Cooper wants, then I hope he is willing to carry that cross to the end. If Cooper crashes and burns then Yzerman has to go with him.

However, Cooper bears most of the blame for the team's performance. The GM gives you players and you have to use them to the best of their abilities. You don't strap a plow to a Ferrari so you can till your fields. Some players are offensive dynamos and some players are defensive oriented. Trying to jam square pegs into round holes isn't going to work for long.

Finally, I have a real issue with how skilled talent is developed by this organization, especially 1st round talent. It just doesn't make sense that of all the players we select in the draft, more 3-7 rounders make it then 1-2 rounders. The only 1st round pick who looks like he's going to live up to expectations with us is Vasi. That's Koekkoek, Drouin, Namestnikov, Connolly, and DeAngelo that all look like either busts or traded.

Had some good conversations on Twitter about that and someone made a good point. They said that the organization holds better talent to a higher (unfair?) standard. For example: at training camp they see a prospect they rate as a 9/10 perform like a 9/10. That's just status quo. But if a prospect they rate as a 5/10 performs like an 8/10? Wow! We can't send him down!

That actually makes a lot of sense based on what we've seen over the years. Koekkoek was the 2nd best defenseman we had in the ECF loss to Pittsburgh and then couldn't crack the roster 4 months later at training camp? That is just a head scratcher. And now he's on what is essentially a 'last chance' contract. Meanwhile Dotchin comes up, doesn't blow chunks, and now he's on the verge of getting a multi-year deal.

The first round pick curse we seem to have just can't be explained away. It isn't as if we are going off the board every year. Every player selected since Yzerman took over was a solid pick. We weren't taking 2nd rounders in the 1st. These were all legit 1st round talents. How is it that we've missed on so many of them?

Chad, on the BP Podcast, made a good point that we tend to take offensively gifted guys and make them focus on D at the expense of their offense, and then they just never get that offense back. This has been true, so far, with Koekkoek. And it would affect first rounders, usually more O-first players, more than other players.

 

[2020 Cup Champions]

Well, if nothing changes in that regard (with respect to 1st rounder development) maybe it wouldn't be so bad to use our 1sts for rentals.

 

[The Macho King]

I feel that Yzerman has changed the identity of this team since our SCF loss. The reason for that? Who knows. I do blame him for the philosophy shift for sure. If it is Yzerman turning the organization into one that Cooper wants, then I hope he is willing to carry that cross to the end. If Cooper crashes and burns then Yzerman has to go with him.

However, Cooper bears most of the blame for the team's performance. The GM gives you players and you have to use them to the best of their abilities. You don't strap a plow to a Ferrari so you can till your fields. Some players are offensive dynamos and some players are defensive oriented. Trying to jam square pegs into round holes isn't going to work for long.

Finally, I have a real issue with how skilled talent is developed by this organization, especially 1st round talent. It just doesn't make sense that of all the players we select in the draft, more 3-7 rounders make it then 1-2 rounders. The only 1st round pick who looks like he's going to live up to expectations with us is Vasi. That's Koekkoek, Drouin, Namestnikov, Connolly, and DeAngelo that all look like either busts or traded.

Had some good conversations on Twitter about that and someone made a good point. They said that the organization holds better talent to a higher (unfair?) standard. For example: at training camp they see a prospect they rate as a 9/10 perform like a 9/10. That's just status quo. But if a prospect they rate as a 5/10 performs like an 8/10? Wow! We can't send him down!

That actually makes a lot of sense based on what we've seen over the years. Koekkoek was the 2nd best defenseman we had in the ECF loss to Pittsburgh and then couldn't crack the roster 4 months later at training camp? That is just a head scratcher. And now he's on what is essentially a 'last chance' contract. Meanwhile Dotchin comes up, doesn't blow chunks, and now he's on the verge of getting a multi-year deal.

The first round pick curse we seem to have just can't be explained away. It isn't as if we are going off the board every year. Every player selected since Yzerman took over was a solid pick. We weren't taking 2nd rounders in the 1st. These were all legit 1st round talents. How is it that we've missed on so many of them?

I don't think it's Yzerman at all. I mean look at the Dmen he's drafting - They're the big, mobile skaters who move the puck. That's a big part of what I think he envisions our system as.

I think it's more that Cooper changed his system after the Red Wings series. We became a team less focused on a quick transition game and more focused on... I mean, that's just it. I don't know what our system is anymore. It used to be a heavy forecheck and a quick transition from D to O, now every breakout starts with the forwards reversing the puck to the Dmen, who reverse it back and forth a few times, and then a stretch pass (with the problem being we only have two Dmen who can make a good stretch pass).

Yzerman hasn't *invested* in players that play that type of game. Yes, that does describe Kunitz and Girardi, but those are short-term signings. The forwards are still good skaters (although we have shown a preference for larger players lately), and the Dmen are still range-y puckmovers.

 

[The Macho King]

Chad, on the BP Podcast, made a good point that we tend to take offensively gifted guys and make them focus on D at the expense of their offense, and then they just never get that offense back. This has been true, so far, with Koekkoek. And it would affect first rounders, usually more O-first players, more than other players.

I object to that comparison with Koekkoek purely on the fact that he is a Defenseman. If he can't be a two-way player, I don't want him. This is only a problem for forwards in my opinion. I don't think we should be encouraging young Dmen to not work on gap control or making sure to cover the point or anything like that.

 

[Sky04]

The only heavy forecheck I've seen the last 2 years was at the tail end of last season with the AHL call-ups who didn't know any better. Cooper will fix that this year.

 

[DFC]

I object to that comparison with Koekkoek purely on the fact that he is a Defenseman. If he can't be a two-way player, I don't want him. This is only a problem for forwards in my opinion. I don't think we should be encouraging young Dmen to not work on gap control or making sure to cover the point or anything like that.

Yeah, agreed, but in Koekkoek's case there are articles from two years ago talking about how we actually put his offense on hold to work on his D. I agree we should work on his D too, but we should probably be working on everything at once.

 

[The Macho King]

The only heavy forecheck I've seen the last 2 years was at the tail end of last season with the AHL call-ups who didn't know any better. Cooper will fix that this year.

That's why I don't buy the plethora of excuses from Cooper apologists. Just look at any game from the 2014-15 season to any of the first 60 games from the past season - the system is different, plain and simple.

 

[Major4Boarding]

Wings kept the window open a couple decades.

The first decade of it there was no salary cap they were able to stack up talent and keep almost all of it.

And what about the decade after the salary cap era began? One of those seasons where they won a Cup?

 

[These Are The Days]

Complacency is an issue with dun dun dun....coaching.

Where exactly does accountability within the locker room come into play in your rationale? Months of "we gotta play better that was not good enough" is a coaching issue?

Hes a coach not a therapist. If it is his job then why the hell do we have captains? Our 2015 season was saved by PLAYERS ONLY meetings. Not by Cooper doing anything differrently

 

[Rschmitz]

I'm not sure how this doesn't count as further evidence to the problem.

Kucherov has been an underutilized weapon until this past season. You don't play a top-20 NHL scorer < 15 minutes per night.

I never said it doesn't count as evidence. It does count as evidence, young players shouldn't be expected to put up those kind of obscene #'s to earn opportunities.

 

[Steazy Doo]

It's clear Cooper's system changed, and it's also clear Yzerman has pushed for this "safer" approach, probably starting around the beginning of 2016.

http://www.foxsports.com/florida/video/918833219639

He's waaaay more concerned about scoring chances against then he is our own scoring chances from that video

It's pretty obvious that he didn't like Cooper's run and gun. He's given Cooper the chance to adapt to his vision, which isn't a style that made Cooper successful. He's had some success with this like in 2016. We won games, but we looked worse. We didn't have the puck as much. Wasn't as fun to watch.

So if Cooper does go, Yzerman's comments make me believe he's not interested in a Bruce Boudreau type. I also believe Drouin and Cooper could have gone on and had a good working relationship. Drouin did say he envisioned staying here, but as evident from the trade, Drouin wasn't part of Yzerman's style.

TLDR; Cooper is being pushed to change from what made him successful.

 

[DFC]

I never said it doesn't count as evidence. It does count as evidence, young players shouldn't be expected to put up those kind of obscene #'s to earn opportunities.

Agreed, I just mean, in general (not you specifically) often use Kucherov as evidence that Cooper brings along young, offensively gifted players as well as anyone else.

They also use Yanni Gourde, which is kind of shocking, seeing how he put up 8 points in 20ish games, and is about to be a 26 year-old rookie.

Cooper brings young players along if they're very, very safe, or if they were part of that legendary Norfolk team. Aside from that, there's been more mishandling of young players than proper handling. We're starting to get used to young players voicing frustration, which is a problem in itself.