Albany says no to ECHL

[Nightsquad]

I think this is mistake, the AFL is not what it was when the Firebirds were successful.
http://m.timesunion.com/sports/article/Times-Union-Center-eyeing-return-of-Arena-10999070.php

Click to read more...

 

[kyfry]

Agreed. Arena/Indoor football is not a big thing anymore. Id expect the AFL to fold at the end of this coming season. Ive heard rumors of the D League coming to Albany by way of the 76ers affiliate in Delaware moving, which doesnt make sense to me as the NBA is placing most of its affiliates near the team nowadays. (although Albany is a larger market than Newark, Delaware)

Best bet for now is to go with a team in the National Lacrosse League. The league had some success in Albany before, and with teams in Toronto, Buffalo, Rochester and Connecticut, Albany would fit well in its northeast footprint. Go with lacrosse for now but get hockey back as soon as possible with better ownership, promotion and not in the FHL.

Another option could be indoor soccer in the MASL. The league has nearby teams in Harrisburg, Syracuse and Baltimore. Soccer has become more popular over the years. I know they had a team in 1990 called the New York Kick who split their home games between Albany and Glens Falls.

 

[GarbageGoal]

A quick death vs the slow one, IMHO.

The indoor lacrosse idea is not a bad one. It's a fun watch if done correctly.

 

[Woo Hockey]

"We leave that door (AHL) open," Belber said. "There's not a lot of movement in the AHL, so I don't expect that to happen. We're not going out looking for an ECHL team. I've seen some attendance numbers in other markets that went from AHL to ECHL. There's a dramatic drop in attendance that we've seen."

I find this very ironic for them to say this since they've had low attendance numbers for a while now.

 

[Nightsquad]

"We leave that door (AHL) open," Belber said. "There's not a lot of movement in the AHL, so I don't expect that to happen. We're not going out looking for an ECHL team. I've seen some attendance numbers in other markets that went from AHL to ECHL. There's a dramatic drop in attendance that we've seen."

I find this very ironic for them to say this since they've had low attendance numbers for a while now.

I think if the ECHL team was ran better then how the Devils ran their AHL team (local name, better game times, radio broadcasts, promotions, group sale discounts) the ECHL would draw equally if not better then the Devils do. When Albany went from AA Eastern league to later getting A NYPL baseball team average attendance went up. The season was shorter and tickets cheaper. Albany's casual fans wont notice a huge drop off in play hockey wise, they might actually enjoy the higher scoring run and gun style. The ECHL teams in Albany and Glens Falls could also sign players finishing their college careers at nearby Union and RPI. These two teams could affiliate with Rangers, Islanders, or Buffalo. I do agree Albany needs to go dark next year but if Albany cant become a Rangers AHL affiliate then why overlook the ECHL. I think this GM Belber is grasping for straws when he says they are in casual talks with arena football. The AFL of today is like the old AFL2 which was semi pro at best.

 

[CHRDANHUTCH]

I think if the ECHL team was ran better then how the Devils ran their AHL team (local name, better game times, radio broadcasts, promotions, group sale discounts) the ECHL would draw equally if not better then the Devils do. When Albany went from AA Eastern league to later getting A NYPL baseball team average attendance went up. The season was shorter and tickets cheaper. Albany's casual fans wont notice a huge drop off in play hockey wise, they might actually enjoy the higher scoring run and gun style. The ECHL teams in Albany and Glens Falls could also sign players finishing their college careers at nearby Union and RPI. These two teams could affiliate with Rangers, Islanders, or Buffalo. I do agree Albany needs to go dark next year but if Albany cant become a Rangers AHL affiliate then why overlook the ECHL. I think this GM Belber is grasping for straws when he says they are in casual talks with arena football. The AFL of today is like the old AFL2 which was semi pro at best.

did you ever consider that Adirondack may not be going anywhere in the distant future, and if they have both markets cornered, that's why the E may not want to be in Albany unless something changes in Glens Falls, but that doesn't look likely if there's now local ownership running the Thunder.

 

[Nightsquad]

did you ever consider that Adirondack may not be going anywhere in the distant future, and if they have both markets cornered, that's why the E may not want to be in Albany unless something changes in Glens Falls, but that doesn't look likely if there's now local ownership running the Thunder.

Never mentioned Adirondack going anywhere. If anything Albany and Glens Falls in same league has always helped one another. If both clubs could average each over 3000 fans per game and then get a good rivalry going going that wouldnt be a bad thing. The E though would be right to protect Adirondack's territory down towards Albany. If a year or two later Albany should become the Rangers farm team the ECHL in Glens Falls would take a beating, lots of Ranger fans up there. Its really a non topic at this stage anyway.

 

[Sports Enthusiast]

Indoor lacrosse and soccer are great to watch and I say that as somebody who doesn't care for the outdoor versions. I hate the rules of outdoor lacrosse. Shooting the ball out of bounds and getting to keep it sounds ********.

Arena Football was decent at one point but it folded once and seems to be struggling again. That had hype in the early 2000's. Of course it used to be on TV a fair amount.

 

[PCSPounder]

Indoor lacrosse and soccer are great to watch and I say that as somebody who doesn't care for the outdoor versions. I hate the rules of outdoor lacrosse. Shooting the ball out of bounds and getting to keep it sounds ********.

Arena Football was decent at one point but it folded once and seems to be struggling again. That had hype in the early 2000's. Of course it used to be on TV a fair amount.

Arena Football will somehow play this year (or at least I'd say the odds are 75% in favor), and DESERVES to die... but it was my understanding that the AFL was seeking arena/NBA/NHL owners to bail out the league (hence Ted Leonsis running teams in both Washington and Baltimore this year). Who's going to run the show in Albany? It seemed part of the strategy was getting out of places like Spokane and Des Moines. Look at the IFL, however... if Albany gets back in the game, that's probably the league they'd get.

As a raging outdoor soccer fan... the MASL has a few "arena" teams and literally a few indoor shack teams (based in indoor soccer centers that might have 1,000 seats). Baltimore tried to create a new "arena" league and couldn't get the thing off the ground. Outdoor has all the momentum... and then some.

BTW, I'm really trying to grasp you talking about not rewarding shooting in lacrosse, as if they were better off with hockey scores or worse. Having the freedom to miss allows for more goals, not less (provided your intentions are pure here... and ALSO assuming you think more goals are good for that sport, and maybe that's worth a debate).

 

[ckg927]

A quick death vs the slow one, IMHO.

The indoor lacrosse idea is not a bad one. It's a fun watch if done correctly.

Agreed. Buffalo is one of those markets that do it right.

However, what may work against Albany is that they've done it before and it failed(that team is now in Vancouver).

 

[Clutcherbuck]

Nothing is going to succeed in Albany if the organization is run the way the current Devils front office ran the team. I could go on and on with examples with how terrible the marketing of the team has ALWAYS been since inception of the River Rats in 93-94, but there's no point. I have no desire to see an ECHL team. First, I am tired of the ECHL claiming it is like "Double A" baseball. In baseball, double A is full of prospects, not veterans who can't cut it. I have no desire to watch that level of hockey and will likely go see RPI now when I went a local hockey fix, and would even if there was an ECHL team here.

The Firebirds worked because they were good. Because "Touchdown" Eddie Brown drew fans. (As an aside, until this year, I never knew Antonio Brown of the Steelers was his son... that is a prime example of how horrific local Albany area sports coverage is). The Conquest, that AF2 team, was not nearly as successful, because people knew it was a downgraded product.

Albany is more of a college sports town. It's interesting, because we have good schools in each of the big sports, but it seems like its a different school for each of the sports. That's where the local sports media spends 60% of its time, with the other 37% being high school sports, and 3% the professional teams.

The ValleyCats are run so much better, but you know, the ValleyCats aren't Albany. They're Troy (and no where near "bad" Troy). And before you think, "same difference", I think goes a long way, because people know its a much safer location, with ease of access, rather then the TU Center, which is in a terrible location for the Capital District market, in general.

 

[Clutcherbuck]

I think if the ECHL team was ran better then how the Devils ran their AHL team (local name, better game times, radio broadcasts, promotions, group sale discounts) the

Group sales, group sales, group sales. BINGO!
I have been to several other AHL cities, including all of the NY locations. All of these teams have, in my opinion, the same general core of fans, number wise. The hockey people, like us.

What Albany has always been pathetic with, is group sales. My wife and I always laugh when they show the "groups attending tonight's game", and it's only like one or two companies. Go to Syracuse, or yes, good ol' Binghamton, and you'll see a much longer list. Wilkes-Barre's is huge. Their is no attempt to reach out to corporate contacts.

Or, they'll even shun corporate contacts. The last three years of the Hurricanes affiliation, the company that I worked for was a sponsor with an ad on the boards and everything. When the Devils brass came in, our sales manager tried to get continue the relationship, and we had every intention to. But three meetings were cancelled, by THEIR representative. Eventually, we were told that one of our competitors got an "exclusive" deal for the industry we were in. Our sales manager did not even get a chance to negotiate.

That's how they treat businesses. And it shows when they list those "groups attending tonight's game." I'll miss having the team, I won't miss the people who run it.

 

[Nightsquad]

Nothing is going to succeed in Albany if the organization is run the way the current Devils front office ran the team. I could go on and on with examples with how terrible the marketing of the team has ALWAYS been since inception of the River Rats in 93-94, but there's no point. I have no desire to see an ECHL team. First, I am tired of the ECHL claiming it is like "Double A" baseball. In baseball, double A is full of prospects, not veterans who can't cut it. I have no desire to watch that level of hockey and will likely go see RPI now when I went a local hockey fix, and would even if there was an ECHL team here.

The Firebirds worked because they were good. Because "Touchdown" Eddie Brown drew fans. (As an aside, until this year, I never knew Antonio Brown of the Steelers was his son... that is a prime example of how horrific local Albany area sports coverage is). The Conquest, that AF2 team, was not nearly as successful, because people knew it was a downgraded product.

Albany is more of a college sports town. It's interesting, because we have good schools in each of the big sports, but it seems like its a different school for each of the sports. That's where the local sports media spends 60% of its time, with the other 37% being high school sports, and 3% the professional teams.

The ValleyCats are run so much better, but you know, the ValleyCats aren't Albany. They're Troy (and no where near "bad" Troy). And before you think, "same difference", I think goes a long way, because people know its a much safer location, with ease of access, rather then the TU Center, which is in a terrible location for the Capital District market, in general.

Group sales, group sales, group sales. BINGO!
I have been to several other AHL cities, including all of the NY locations. All of these teams have, in my opinion, the same general core of fans, number wise. The hockey people, like us.

What Albany has always been pathetic with, is group sales. My wife and I always laugh when they show the "groups attending tonight's game", and it's only like one or two companies. Go to Syracuse, or yes, good ol' Binghamton, and you'll see a much longer list. Wilkes-Barre's is huge. Their is no attempt to reach out to corporate contacts.

Or, they'll even shun corporate contacts. The last three years of the Hurricanes affiliation, the company that I worked for was a sponsor with an ad on the boards and everything. When the Devils brass came in, our sales manager tried to get continue the relationship, and we had every intention to. But three meetings were cancelled, by THEIR representative. Eventually, we were told that one of our competitors got an "exclusive" deal for the industry we were in. Our sales manager did not even get a chance to negotiate.

That's how they treat businesses. And it shows when they list those "groups attending tonight's game." I'll miss having the team, I won't miss the people who run it.

I totally agree with how the Devils organization ran things, they have done everything to diminish themselves. The one ice product only the last two years was good enough to watch, prior to that it was very bad. I do feel though as though your not giving the ECHL much of a chance. A lot of your nearby ECAC DI college alumni play in the ECHL. Nearby Union and RPI have players cutting their teeth and paying their dues in the ECHL. Kasdorf wasn't even ready for AHL play in Rochester, he has been trying to earn his spot back to Rochester through ECHL Elmira. Likewise Collin Stevens has been playing in the ECHL as well. I think in time you will see the ECHL team in Glens Falls be very successful should hockey not return to Albany. I have seen hockey at the NHL, AHL, ECHL, UHL, CoHl, OHL, LANH, FHL, DI, and DIII levels and I as a hockey fan nearing my 50s in my own opinion feel that ECHL hockey is absolutely better then no professional hockey. The ECHL having teams doing well in places like in Atlanta, Orlando, Cincinnati, Toledo, Indianapolis, and soon Jacksonville gives the product some credibility. Smaller markets like Utica and Binghamton will be soon fighting to be ECHL cities like Portland. Times are changing.... Heck even beloved Albany River Rats coach Robbie Ftorek is coaching in the ECHL's Norfolk Admirals, he is Albany royalty.... Who wouldn't love to see him back coaching the Albany River Rats, even if it is in the ECHL?????

 

[RowdyFan42]

When Albany went from AA Eastern league to later getting A NYPL baseball team average attendance went up. The season was shorter and tickets cheaper.

... and there was a brand-spankin'-new ballpark and there were giveaways practically every night and fireworks all the time and it had been 8 years since the Capital District had affiliated baseball. (An independent team came in after the AA Yankees left the outdated, bare-bones Heritage Park and held down the fort until the ValleyCats moved to Troy, even coexisting with the new arrivals for a year before fading away with barely a whimper.)

If what I've seen of ECHL ticket prices is indicative of what a potential Albany team would charge, Bob Belber is right to be skeptical of the league's ability to succeed in the state capital. I'm not sure if an Albany ECHL franchise would be able to strike the right balance between satisfying a notoriously price-sensitive market and being able to afford to operate in a 14,000-seat arena.

 

[RowdyFan42]

Group sales, group sales, group sales. BINGO!
I have been to several other AHL cities, including all of the NY locations. All of these teams have, in my opinion, the same general core of fans, number wise. The hockey people, like us.

What Albany has always been pathetic with, is group sales. My wife and I always laugh when they show the "groups attending tonight's game", and it's only like one or two companies. Go to Syracuse, or yes, good ol' Binghamton, and you'll see a much longer list. Wilkes-Barre's is huge. Their is no attempt to reach out to corporate contacts.

Maybe I'm misremembering, but I thought the first few years had a healthy amount of group sales and a ton of promotions. Granted, there's always a boost when a team is new, but they also had a solid group in that front office. Things started changing right around when Al Lawrence went bankrupt and was forced to sell the team; I will remain forever grateful to Walter Robb for buying the Rats and keeping them in Albany longer than any sane man would have, but I don't think the man ever really hired the right people to run the business side of things, and it showed. The people responsible for the Rats' early success moved on to greener pastures, and their replacements were not up to snuff.

Anyway, I agree with your assessment. If an ECHL club in Albany is to succeed, you're going to need butts in the seats, and group sales will be key.

 

[Nightsquad]

Maybe I'm misremembering, but I thought the first few years had a healthy amount of group sales and a ton of promotions. Granted, there's always a boost when a team is new, but they also had a solid group in that front office. Things started changing right around when Al Lawrence went bankrupt and was forced to sell the team; I will remain forever grateful to Walter Robb for buying the Rats and keeping them in Albany longer than any sane man would have, but I don't think the man ever really hired the right people to run the business side of things, and it showed. The people responsible for the Rats' early success moved on to greener pastures, and their replacements were not up to snuff.

Anyway, I agree with your assessment. If an ECHL club in Albany is to succeed, you're going to need butts in the seats, and group sales will be key.

Albany had stronger group sales right through the River Rat years under the Ownership of Walter Robb. It wasnt until the Devils arrived from Lowell that group sales tanked, and so did attendance. The.average hockey or casual fan in Albany wont notice a drop in play. They will actually probably enjoy the higher scoring end to end action of the ECHL. In fact fans in the Capital Region are more likely to see players from Union or RPI starting their pro hockey careers in the ECHL. Guys like Ryan Hagerty and Shayne the Ghost are few and far in between. Look at Ken Applebee, spent all of last year in the ECHL, now this year earned a short NHL call up. The assertion the ECHL is for aged out washups simply isnt true. If Albany has that attitude it either is a true show of.ignorance on their part or they really just are not hockey educated. Bob Belber and county officials themselves are not capable of putting together a product that people will take interest in.

 

[Nightsquad]

Come on Albany NY hockey fans lol

https://m.facebook.com/SaveAlbanyHo...0075502800/1259601560787318/?type=3&source=54
https://www.***********/p/east-coast-hockey-league-bring-in-a-echl-team-to-albany-ny

 

[Clutcherbuck]

Maybe I'm misremembering, but I thought the first few years had a healthy amount of group sales and a ton of promotions. Granted, there's always a boost when a team is new, but they also had a solid group in that front office. Things started changing right around when Al Lawrence went bankrupt and was forced to sell the team; I will remain forever grateful to Walter Robb for buying the Rats and keeping them in Albany longer than any sane man would have, but I don't think the man ever really hired the right people to run the business side of things, and it showed. The people responsible for the Rats' early success moved on to greener pastures, and their replacements were not up to snuff.

Anyway, I agree with your assessment. If an ECHL club in Albany is to succeed, you're going to need butts in the seats, and group sales will be key.

Initially yes, group sales were good. John Weisbrod was a superstar for us. When he went to Orlando, he was sorely missed by the organization. I am happy for him that he is continuing to be successful to this day. Then the tide began to shift from the team being dominant to being a perennial loser. I am grateful to Walter Robb as well for the same reason, but he trusted the people he hired a little too much. I believe things were beginning to trend up with the Hurricanes team, but then the new guys come in, and couldn't care less about the community. Stripping the team of its River Rats identity, or even a simple removal of Rowdy says a lot. (They were allowed to have the Rowdy trademark, from what I understand. At the very least, Devil Dawg and Rowdy could not co-exist?) Devils players are completely absent in the community. They do the basic school and hospital visits that all teams do, but nothing else. Go to places like Rochester or Syracuse, or again, even our friends in Binghamton, and you will see the players truly being active in the community. It's unbelievable how much they are in Wilkes-Barre.

The.average hockey or casual fan in Albany wont notice a drop in play. They will actually probably enjoy the higher scoring end to end action of the ECHL. In fact fans in the Capital Region are more likely to see players from Union or RPI starting their pro hockey careers in the ECHL. Guys like Ryan Hagerty and Shayne the Ghost are few and far in between. Look at Ken Applebee, spent all of last year in the ECHL, now this year earned a short NHL call up. The assertion the ECHL is for aged out washups simply isnt true. If Albany has that attitude it either is a true show of.ignorance on their part or they really just are not hockey educated.

Sure, the ECHL has some prospects like that, and I agree we would see more local college players, but it's also likely as high up as they're going to go, or become a 3rd/4th liner in the AHL. You touched on why I am not interested in the ECHL: 7-6, 7-5, or whatever final scores. Sure, the average hockey fan may not notice the difference, but the die-hards will. I'd rather watch a 3-2 battle then a 7-6 shootout.

Bob Belber and county officials themselves are not capable of putting together a product that people will take interest in.

Agree. But yet they still live under this dream that they will get the 1st round of the NCAA tournament again.

 

[GindyDraws]

I think this is mistake, the AFL is not what it was when the Firebirds were successful.
http://m.timesunion.com/sports/article/Times-Union-Center-eyeing-return-of-Arena-10999070.php

Arena football is a novelty, first & foremost. Nothing will change that, & for the AFL & all other indoor leagues, they need to think local first, because you won't be getting decent TV deals for a while.

This was the same league that let notorious miser Gene Simmons slap the KISS logo on a dysfunctional team in Anaheim. This is the same league that wanted Johnny Manziel to have him comeback tour. This is the same league where a team, the Pittsburgh Power, chose to pay scab workers for pennies instead of their own roster.

The AFL needs to die.

And, for what it's worth, I'm glad the Firebirds moved to Indianapolis. Was very fun seeing them while they lasted.

 

[GindyDraws]

On topic, Albany is just too apathetic towards sports unless it's at the collegiate level, & this goes beyond ownership.

The city has this malaise towards pro sports teams, it's not funny.

 

[Nightsquad]

On topic, Albany is just too apathetic towards sports unless it's at the collegiate level, & this goes beyond ownership.

The city has this malaise towards pro sports teams, it's not funny.

I agree very apathetic up that way. Its true though Albany doesnt need minor league sports or view them with the same regard as Utica, Syracuse, Rochester, or Binghamton. I actually believe many peoe including Albany media looks down on minor league sports and those other cities. Many people whom I talk to from there (relatives in Saratoga County) barely view Buffalo with any significance. No disrespect to the Albany peeps on here but in my talks with people from NYs Capital Region they are very frugal with the buck. They just arent willing to shell out even a $20 bill to see any level of minor league hockey. Not when you can see nearby Union play for $12 and dont have to pay to park.

 

[Nightsquad]

Pretty interesting write up:
http://thehockeywriters.com/ahl-return-to-albany-in-2018-19/

 

[ckg927]

On topic, Albany is just too apathetic towards sports unless it's at the collegiate level, & this goes beyond ownership.

The city has this malaise towards pro sports teams, it's not funny.

When it comes to minor pro, I'd agree...BUT the Tri-City Valley Cats of the New York-Penn League has done very well nearly every summer. They have NEVER drawn fewer than 100K since they've been in the NYPL.

 

[Woo Hockey]

Pretty interesting write up:
http://thehockeywriters.com/ahl-return-to-albany-in-2018-19/

That's counting on Florida moving their AHL affiliate and Hartford getting a NHL team. Both of which aren't likely. Florida would either keep the team in Springfield or move them down south. The Islanders have begun negotiations to keep the team at the Barclays Center until they have their own arena.

 

[Nightsquad]

When it comes to minor pro, I'd agree...BUT the Tri-City Valley Cats of the New York-Penn League has done very well nearly every summer. They have NEVER drawn fewer than 100K since they've been in the NYPL.

Not necessarily, I think fans there just know when they are getting a solid bang for their buck. The AFL Firebirds drew VERY well, they averaged 10,000 or more fans per game. The greedy owners thought they could do better in Indianapolis and sold the Firebirds which backfired few years later. He used the excuse the AFL had outgrown small markets like Albany. Fans refused to support the low level AFL2 product called the Conquest, then rebranded as Firebirds again. The Devils have lousy promotions, barely broadcast any games on radio, lousy logo and identity, and its costs well over $100.00 for a family of four to go to a game in Albany. The Valleycats entertain people, giveaway promotions, fireworks, clean ballpark, and even compete with nearby Saratoga Springs horse racing in August which is basically major league horse racing.