Player Discussion Alain Vigneault: Part III

[Megustaelhockey]

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[silverfish]

In every AV thread until he's fired or proves he actually knows how to coach

 

[Inferno]

The thing I dont like about Vigneault is the same thing I didn't like about Renney...it's that I don't really understand his moves...why he does what he does...

im sure at least part if not the majority of it is simply an ego thing, where I believe I am right in my assessment of the situation and if his moves do not correspond with my assessments therefore I dont understand or agree with him.

I think what has changed since the days of Renney is that you can now empirically or mathematically compare what you are seeing to raw data. If I think Tanner Glass is playing a good game, it should in some way shape or form bear out mathematically. If I think that Oscar Lindberg, Staalberg, and Staal were a good line, it should bear out mathematically....if I think that Yandle and McIlrath play well together, it should...you guessed it, bear out mathematically.

Now obviously there are some things you cant see, like players liking other players and the like, but I was told one of the things that AV is known for is separating himself from the team, and keeping them at arms length.

So what I don't get is, why is this coach playing out things that dont bear out either by the number or by what the fans say? are there some internal numbers that we dont know about that would explain it? what are those numbers? how are they calculated? why doesnt that bear out on the ice?

Why are so many guys failing the eye test, and failing the math test, and yet seemingly passing the Vigneault test?

This is what I dont understand.

When Torts would bench Kreider...I knew why. When Torts sent Richards to the press box, I knew why. When Torts played Ryan McDonagh for like 56 minutes in a playoff game...I knew why. It made sense to me. I got it.

You may or may not have liked the system, and thats a reasonable argument here either for or against a coach, but what do you think about his other decisions? Why is player X playing over player Y? Why do players A and B play together all the time when the numbers bear out that if they are split up both play better? Why is Player C not on the PP when all the numbers show that he should be playing every minute of the PP?

I just dont get it. I dont understand the rationale. I really wish he could explain some of this to me, of course i dont expect it to happen, but nobody here can really explain many/any of his moves.



Some other Food for thought..

AV has been here for 3 seasons.
2013-2014:
CF%: 7th in the NHL
PP%: 14th in the NHL
PK%: 3rd in the NHL

2014-2015:
CF%: 20th in the NHL
PP%: 22nd in the NHL
PK%: 6th in the NHL

2015-2016:
CF%:26th in the NHL
PP%:14th in the NHL
PK%:26th in the NHL


These are the 3 most predictive aspects of success IMHO. GF% is obviously a huge thing as well, but I personally feel its a bit too reliant on goaltending and can be swayed by "luck" more than the other aspects....if you have a ridiculously high shooting percentage (we were the highest shooting percentage team in the NHL) or your goalie is god-like (see Lundvist, Henrik) that can really explain the 5v5 and can obviously get a team into the playoffs...but against good/great teams in the playoffs, luck isnt as easy to come by, and a goalie has to be even that much better...how much better can you be then a God? A titan?

So I find it interesting that the 3 predictive metrics we have have consistently gotten worse under AV....PP% is one thats fluctuated between abhorrent and mediocre, but the other 2 have consistently gotten worse.

Its also worth noting that the year that TOrts was fired here were our stats:

CF%: 9th in the NHL
PP%: 23rd in the NHL
PK%: 15th in the NHL

Most people would agree that this was Torts' worst season as a coach and led to him being fired...its interesting how his numbers in his worst season are better or comparable to AV this season....

In summation.....FIRE AV.

 

[Matz03]

It's crazy how less than 2 years ago I thought AV was the best coach the Rangers ever had. If anything he's someone you'd give another shot if you can retool the roster. But now the writing on the wall couldn't be more clear. This team needs a serious retool and injection of youth. It's not AV, and really no one in the current coaching staff, the guy to lead them.

AV it was fun 2013-16

 

[Jersey Girl]

It's not AV, and really no one in the current coaching staff, the guy to lead them.

And you know this how?

 

[True Blue]

And you know this how?

Probably wishful thinking. I was never enamored w/ AV, but can admit that he is a good coach.

But I will also make the analogy that Edge did. Roger Nielsen was a good coach too. But he, like AV, was trapped by his own limitations. And could not get past them. AV is not a closer. He is good with what he does. He is not good when it comes time to figure out adjustments. He is not an in-game manger. Give him a game where the center of the ice is open and the teams allow his players to skate freely, his system looks fine. Give him a game where there is no open ice and the only way in is to battle along the boards, and his system is no longer quite so nice.

I think that he will be here next year. But if you are Gorton, the complete no shows of the last several games have got to be alarming. If the AV's grand place to change is to insert Diaz for Boyle and the Rangers cannot battle again, Gorton will have to think long and hard.

 

[xsniper11x]

I fear we're building a dangerous culture that accommodates our players whenever they disapprove of the coach, dating back to Renney. Personel might change, but culture might carry on.

Someone mentioned in the prior thread that players get frustrated when they see Glass or Boyle stink, but continue to get ice time.

If that's true, is that supposed to justify a lackluster effort? It's not like Glass is the highest paid player on the team, nor is he lazy. If something like that is true, then I come back to questioning the makeup of the team, not just the coaching.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

Firing AV & rest of coaching staff (Arniel and Ulf need to go) isn't a good move unless you have the right replacements.

Who would the Rangers even want?

It'll have to be somebody willing to take over a declining squad and be blamed for the entire situation when they don't succeed.

 

[silverfish]

It'll have to be somebody willing to take over a declining squad and be blamed for the entire situation when they don't succeed.

HC: Messier
AC: Graves
AC: Leetch

AND THIS ONE WILL LAST A LIFETIME.

 

[Jaromir Jagr]

It'll have to be somebody willing to take over a declining squad and be blamed for the entire situation when they don't succeed.

What's Trottier up to?


AV must be canned. He's horrendous.

 

[Jersey Girl]

Probably wishful thinking. I was never enamored w/ AV, but can admit that he is a good coach.

But I will also make the analogy that Edge did. Roger Nielsen was a good coach too. But he, like AV, was trapped by his own limitations. And could not get past them. AV is not a closer. He is good with what he does. He is not good when it comes time to figure out adjustments. He is not an in-game manger. Give him a game where the center of the ice is open and the teams allow his players to skate freely, his system looks fine. Give him a game where there is no open ice and the only way in is to battle along the boards, and his system is no longer quite so nice.

I think that he will be here next year. But if you are Gorton, the complete no shows of the last several games have got to be alarming. If the AV's grand place to change is to insert Diaz for Boyle and the Rangers cannot battle again, Gorton will have to think long and hard.

And if you're AV, you have to think long and hard about Gorton as well. This group, with so many guys with so many miles on them, has limitations. And that was BEFORE adding the older Staal, who is clearly well past his sell-by date.

There is also the hockey adage of show me good goaltending and I'll show you a good coach. The opposite also applies.

 

[East Coast Bias]

It'll have to be somebody willing to take over a declining squad and be blamed for the entire situation when they don't succeed.

Poor guy. If things didn't just miraculously keep crumbling around him, perfectly cyclical, he could have had it all.

 

[Matz03]

And you know this how?

His record regarding young players doesn't take so well with a retool.

I fear we're building a dangerous culture that accommodates our players whenever they disapprove of the coach, dating back to Renney. Personel might change, but culture might carry on.

Someone mentioned in the prior thread that players get frustrated when they see Glass or Boyle stink, but continue to get ice time.

If that's true, is that supposed to justify a lackluster effort? It's not like Glass is the highest paid player on the team, nor is he lazy. If something like that is true, then I come back to questioning the makeup of the team, not just the coaching.

This is a very good point, it's absolutely not just the coaching. But he is the one that all year did not hold vets accountable. He's the one that regularly didn't ice the obvious best line up. The D pairing decisions were a mess all year. Even the forward lineups were questionable all year outside of just Glass.

No doubt with a coaching change a couple of core guys need to be moved for younger assets, free some cap space, gets some new blood into the system.

Nash, Girardi, both Staal's, Boyle, Yandle, Hayes, Glass, Moore, their roles going forward have to be thought through long and hard.

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

HC: Messier
AC: Graves
AC: Leetch

AND THIS ONE WILL LAST A LIFETIME.

And we will still not win a Cup and 20-year olds will scream to take those 3 banners down!

 

[Jersey Girl]

His record regarding young players doesn't take so well with a retool.

What is record with young players?

 

[cwede]

he was brought here with 'win now' (Nash, Henrik) expectation, and has had these 3 years

he hasn't been able to get over the hump, a
nd coach should be accountable for

- multiple lost 3d period leads in SCF

- consecutive shutout losses at home in Game, 5, 7 in ECF

- this season's season long recurring issues of (a) uncontested goals from close, (b) goals against in bunches, (c) late tying goals with extra-attacker, (d) lineups decision indifferent to performance, (e) mediocre special teams

- falling behind in series 1-3 to div rivals 3 years running

he hasn't delivered, its rational to try elsewhere while Henrik is still near-prime

among options, Marc Crawford is proven and eager to return to NHL

 

[Jersey Girl]

he was brought here with 'win now' (Nash, Henrik) expectation, and has had these 3 years

he hasn't been able to get over the hump, a
nd coach should be accountable for

- multiple lost 3d period leads in SCF

- consecutive shutout losses at home in Game, 5, 7 in ECF

- this season's season long recurring issues of (a) uncontested goals from close, (b) goals against in bunches, (c) late tying goals with extra-attacker, (d) lineups decision indifferent to performance, (e) mediocre special teams

- falling behind in series 1-3 to div rivals 3 years running

he hasn't delivered, its rational to try elsewhere while Henrik is still near-prime

among options, Marc Crawford is proven and eager to return to NHL

You would move AV out for Marc Crawford? Oh my goodness no.

 

[Mikos87]

I think he's leading the org down the same path in Van which is those quick first round exits after a decent run.

IMO he's lack of accountability, and holding players to a meritocracy is the biggest downfall.

Teams are prepared for the Rangers because they try the same things over and over again. Yes you can beat the odds in the regular season, especially with a world class goalie who can steal games for weeks at a time.

But this imo... this stubborness to not try and beat the Pens by playing the way LA or SJ plays... hard along the walls... when you are the bigger and slower team.... and trying to beat the Pens at a speed game... you just saw the futility.

Game 2 was great.... they should have kept that line up and played that brand of hockey.

Yeah they had 57 hits.... not much time with the puck... but they also won... the pens caved.... the smallish impish speed team caved...

What does AV do?

He thinks about letting his number 9 defensemen on the depth chart play in the final game of the year.

You deserve an early exit. This is what happens when you have a coach who constantly needs to prove that he's smarter than everyone else.

 

[Matz03]

What is record with young players?

How he handles and uses them.

 

[Mikos87]

I'd give Kevin Dineen a look or the guy coaching Union College.

 

[cwede]

You would move AV out for Marc Crawford? Oh my goodness no.

fine pick someone else

but AV's teflon attitude, all year, that its all the players fault,
contradicts the expectation that the coach will make a difference

 

[Inferno]

id also like to point to the fact that the Turtle in all likelyhood cost us the cup...thats all on AV...

id also like to point out that most coaches turtle, and i effing hate it...and thats not all on AV...its on the coaching mentality in general. god damn hate the turtle.

 

[Mikos87]

fine pick someone else

but AV's teflon attitude, all year, that its all the players fault,
contradicts the expectation that the coach will make a difference

I think game 5 will speak volumes.

I believe that the leadership in the room is weak, and the leadership from the coaching is weaker.

AV is in the mold of a Jaques Martin or a Roger Nielsen.

He's no Babcock, Quenville, or Sutter.

 

[Leetch66]

I think game 5 will speak volumes.

I believe that the leadership in the room is weak, and the leadership from the coaching is weaker.

AV is in the mold of a Jaques Martin or a Roger Nielsen.

He's no Babcock, Quenville, or Sutter.

I agree 110 % Mikos and it has been an ongoing thing with this club . It is not a new problem . Hard to change it this year but next season it has to be changed . I think we can still beat these guys....but if they don't want to pay a price....not going to happen . Somebody has to get down and dirty in the Penguin crease and get involved with Letang and Murray....it's that simple .

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

This team has a metric ton of problems all over the ice. But it never ceases to amaze me how such a large portion of the fanbase can channel the ire to one man behind the bench. Quite frankly, it's lazy.