About Provorov

[TheKingPin]

He didn't answer that question before. Im guessing no. It was a masterful game. The flyers were out gunned up and down the line up so there is no way we winning corsi. Within that he saved us. You should watch hockey more.

 

[BillDineen]

Everyone is going to want to do their summer exercise routine.

 

[C0DITH]

Ivan is a beast. Period.

 

[TheWolfOfBroadStreet]

Frustrated?

Ron Hextall has taught us infinite patience.

We are now the most chill fans in the NHL.

To be fair, I am giving all credit to Sam Hinkie, who died for our sins.

 

[NJGoalie]

Don't get me wrong, coming into tonight's game, I had little to no expectations for the Flyers having played a super tough opponent the night before.

I totally expected them to get crushed for the most part 5on5 and they did so with all that said, adding 10 blocked shots to your stat line in a game you were expected to be dominated 5on5 is nice.

However, as nice as those 10 blocked shots may seem in a game that went as expected 5on5, it doesn't take away the fact that Neuvirth was the sole reason they won that game.

I'm a huge Provorov fan and I've loved watching him play this season when I've had the chance to watch the Flyers, but that kind of possession is just too hard to overlook.

But that's just me

There's no way you actually watched the game. Provorov plays with 4 other guys on the ice at the same time as he is. He can't do everything himself. Keep judging his performance by the fancy stats though if you want, just know you aren't fooling anyone that actually watched the game. You're only fooling yourself.

 

[ybnvs]

Such stud.
Great amaze.
Much skill.

He's special.

 

[Tripod]

Yeah no one that WATCHED the game last night would say that Provy was outplayed. HEll most Flyers fans were saying/expecting him to be one of the 3 stars...but of course they went with 2 goalies and the GWG scorer.

 

[sobrien]

He was great last night. For fans who don't think "he'll pan out" or think he will regress...I just don't see it. Provorov has such an analytical and competitive mind, the everlasting need to improve that I don't ever see him regressing until age catches up. Sure he'll have a bad game here and there, but he's going to be the Flyers 1D for years to come.

This is a snippet from Charlie O'Conner's write-up from The Athletic about one of Provorov's shifts last night:

On one memorable shift in the second period that lasted a whopping three minutes and 17 seconds, here's what he did:

• forced a dump-in at even strength
• stayed on the ice after Hagg took a penalty
• blocked a shot by Alex Pietrangelo
• harassed Brayden Schenn below the red line, forcing a 50/50 scrum
• blocked a shot by Alex Steen
• blocked a second shot from Pietrangelo
• blocked a shot from Vladimir Tarasenko, which hobbled Provorov
• stood up Beau Bennett on an entry attempt with the game back at 5v5

That's four blocks, two strong neutral zone plays and an instinctive read down low, over a period of time that ended up being over four times the average NHL shift length.

It's worth noting that Charlie is a staunch supporter of fancy stats. He threw them out the window immediately for Provorov last night. Clearly a night where the eye test won.

 

[StoneHands]

He was great last night. For fans who don't think "he'll pan out" or think he will regress...I just don't see it. Provorov has such an analytical and competitive mind, the everlasting need to improve that I don't ever see him regressing until age catches up. Sure he'll have a bad game here and there, but he's going to be the Flyers 1D for years to come.

This is a snippet from Charlie O'Conner's write-up from The Athletic about one of Provorov's shifts last night:


It's worth noting that Charlie is a staunch supporter of fancy stats. He threw them out the window immediately for Provorov last night. Clearly a night where the eye test won.

That's the problem I have with advanced stats, people think they tell the whole story but they don't and if you don't use the eye test to go along with them, they're useless. Provorov who is 20 years old was essentially the veteran defenseman on the team last night (Manning has slightly more games played but always as a 3rd pairing guy). 4 defenseman with less than 15 games of NHL experience were playing last night, one of them with Provorov. When something like that happens against one of the best teams in the NHL, on the road, in the back end of a back to back, you can bet your ass you'll be outplayed. Did Provorov spend a ton of time in his own zone last night? Sure, but for the most part it was controlled. He does such a great job of keeping the play to the outside and forcing weak shots and when a shot was taken from a quality scoring area, he blocked it. Last night was the kind of game that Flyers fans reference when talking about Provorov. If you didn't watch it, you just won't get it.

 

[Tripod]

That's the problem I have with advanced stats, people think they tell the whole story but they don't and if you don't use the eye test to go along with them, they're useless. Provorov who is 20 years old was essentially the veteran defenseman on the team last night (Manning has slightly more games played but always as a 3rd pairing guy). 4 defenseman with less than 15 games of NHL experience were playing last night, one of them with Provorov. When something like that happens against one of the best teams in the NHL, on the road, in the back end of a back to back, you can bet your ass you'll be outplayed. Did Provorov spend a ton of time in his own zone last night? Sure, but for the most part it was controlled. He does such a great job of keeping the play to the outside and forcing weak shots and when a shot was taken from a quality scoring area, he blocked it. Last night was the kind of game that Flyers fans reference when talking about Provorov. If you didn't watch it, you just won't get it.

The eye test kicked the stats ass last night.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

I always thought it was close before the draft between Provy with Werenski and Hanifin. I just thought the margin of difference from pick 3 to 11 was very slim. Lots of quality past Mc-Eichel. But if the draft was redone today. I would say Provorov is the 3rd most valuable prospect from this crop, thus he should be picked 3rd OA. At #3, he impacts the game more than any other prospect past 1 and 2.

 

[Magua]

Just to end this stats vs eye test argument......there's more than Corsi, you know?

Provorov, despite getting crushed in the shots, was at a 50% expected goals for % when adjusted for score. Given the situation, given the minutes, his Herculean effort by the eye test was not ignored by the advanced stats.

 

[ChiefWiggum]

Ferk, with all due respect, I understand the analytics but, after watching that game very intently, I have to disagree.

The Flyers were totally outmatched and outgunned tonight. Due to injuries, they iced a D-corps that had a total of 270 games of NHL experience.

St. Louis was on them all night, but due to very good performance in goal by Neuvirth and a really heroic effort by Provorov, they pulled it out. When Tarasenko was on the ice, so was Ivan. In addition to the blocked shots and entire two minute penalty kills, we saw plays like this one in the third.

If you can get a video of the game, check it out. As a hockey fan, I think you'll enjoy watching Ivan's performance, even with his "bad" fancy stats.

This is spectacular. Great positioning, angled him off and played the body when he had his back turned to the play. Another important thing to remember is that Tarasenko is built like a Russian tank. He is almost 230 pounds and is only 6'0'' on a good day.

Side story: I remember hearing on TSN Overdrive one day that a guy was talking to Ken Hitchcock a couple years ago in the Blues dressing room and when Tarasenko came out of the shower he said to Ken, "well your best player looks like your bus driver so thats a good start"

 

[FlyersFanSinceBirth]

I'll never understand how people think a lot of blocked shots is a good thing...

He had the worst CF% among ALL Flyers players today at 25.71%. That's brutal.

If he had a good possession game along with 10 blocks than that'd be a great game, but he was absolutely obliterated 5on5 today.

He's an excellent young defenseman but this is definitely not the type of game to pump up his tires on.

You have to be joking. He played an amazing game, no matter what any fancy stats tell you. Watch the games, instead of the stats.

 

[Finlandia WOAT]

Provorov is a true paradigm of hockey playmanship.

And if you disagree, well, you just don't understand hockey. Provorov is a Master of Subtlety, and only those who really know hockey know how good he is. Go watch something more suited to your intellectual level, like Barney and Friends, or the NFL, or the competitive timed version of chess Bobby Fischer cooked up whilist ***ed out of his mind.

No, this argument isn't loaded in any way, why do you ask?

 

[Sasso09]

Games like that are the reasons why Kris Russell gets so much undeserved love.

Overall this season, Provorov has been really good, but tonight was not a good game at all to judge him by.

he was lights out..... you didn't watch man.

 

[Viqsi]

Provorov is a true paradigm of hockey playmanship.

And if you disagree, well, you just don't understand hockey. Provorov is a Master of Subtlety, and only those who really know hockey know how good he is. Go watch something more suited to your intellectual level, like Barney and Friends, or the NFL, or the competitive timed version of chess Bobby Fischer cooked up whilist ***ed out of his mind.

No, this argument isn't loaded in any way, why do you ask?

This would be applicable if it weren't for the fact that most disagreements about his play have been in the form of "BUT HIS BLOCKED SHOTS AND CORSI".

 

[Rebels57]

I'll never understand how people think a lot of blocked shots is a good thing...

He had the worst CF% among ALL Flyers players today at 25.71%. That's brutal.

If he had a good possession game along with 10 blocks than that'd be a great game, but he was absolutely obliterated 5on5 today.

He's an excellent young defenseman but this is definitely not the type of game to pump up his tires on.

Comments like this garbage are why old school hockey experts get frustrated with keyboard clowns that just look at advanced stats than spout off a misinformed opinion.

If you didn't WATCH THE GAME (a novel concept I know), you probably should keep your opinion to yourself.

It was one of the best games of his career. Loggin 27 minutes after 29 the night before in Chicago and being the glue that held the team together for a huge win.

Didn't watch? Don't comment. That simple.

 

[FlyersFanSinceBirth]

Provorov is a true paradigm of hockey playmanship.

And if you disagree, well, you just don't understand hockey. Provorov is a Master of Subtlety, and only those who really know hockey know how good he is. Go watch something more suited to your intellectual level, like Barney and Friends, or the NFL, or the competitive timed version of chess Bobby Fischer cooked up whilist ***ed out of his mind.

No, this argument isn't loaded in any way, why do you ask?

So then, what's your opinion of Provorov?

 

[whitstifier]

Provorov is a true paradigm of hockey playmanship.

And if you disagree, well, you just don't understand hockey. Provorov is a Master of Subtlety, and only those who really know hockey know how good he is. Go watch something more suited to your intellectual level, like Barney and Friends, or the NFL, or the competitive timed version of chess Bobby Fischer cooked up whilist ***ed out of his mind.

No, this argument isn't loaded in any way, why do you ask?

The "just watch the game, man!" argument isn't the most helpful. However, Provorov isn't Mr. Intangibles. He gets a respectable number of ES points and he effectively transitions play from the d-zone against tough QoC.

You make it sound like Provorov is Andrew MacDonald or Dan Girardi mk. II. Look at other metrics besides CORSI and blocked shots and watch his games. You'll see how off-base your assumptions about Provorov are.

 

[Finlandia WOAT]

This would be applicable if it weren't for the fact that most disagreements about his play have been in the form of "BUT HIS BLOCKED SHOTS AND CORSI".

Calling a game in which a player is out-chanced on-ice by a 3-1 ratio "masterful" is a rather startling dissonance, no?

So then, what's your opinion of Provorov?

He's p good.

I don't much mind the player, it's the frame of argument used on this site (that implicitly places your opinion of Provorov in a linear correlation with the breadth of your hockey analytical ability) which rubs me the wrong way.

The "just watch the game, man!" argument isn't the most helpful. However, Provorov isn't Mr. Intangibles. He gets a respectable number of ES points and he effectively transitions play from the d-zone against tough QoC.
.

That's the thing, last night he didn't play that way. He spent a lot of time chasing in his own zone and blocking shots.

I didn't include your strawman, but I actually think Provorov is good, albeit he had a bad game against a great team last night. It happens.

 

[ChiefWiggum]

There are many pundits you don't know anything about defense and judge a defenseman by his production. Plain and simple, there is next to no statistical measure to grade an individual defenseman. Goalies had GAA or SV%, skaters have points, goals. Defensemen have either plus/minus or Corsi and many have pointed out the flaws in those.

Defensemen can really only be judged by the eye test. Provorov passes. There is nobody at his age that is better at angling an NHL forward into the boards off the rush. There arent many young defensemen who can say that they were averaging 30 minutes a night in their rookie year and, to add, Provorov was carrying his partner, MacDonald, and is now carrying the entire defense which is rampant with youth and inexperience.

For those who say that he had bad analytics last night do not understand what was happening. He made a lot of blocks last night and many of them were off odd man rushes. So what can he do if his teammates turn the puck over in the neutral zone or just flat out decide to stop backchecking. Ultimately, on an odd man rush, he created the optimal situation; to not even allow a shot on goal.

Those who say that blocks are a bad indicator say that its because it means that your team doesn't have the puck. Well, Provorov looks pretty good seperating the player from the puck and most of these blocks came off an odd man rush where the other team doesn't even have the puck for more than a couple seconds, so the logic is invalid here. Additionally, if all the good teams have the puck all the time, then why have defensemen? Why doesn't Pittsburgh tell Dumoulin to take a couple shifts off since they want to put Malkin back out there while Sid is on the ice? Because at some point, the other team will get the puck and how is it the defenseman's fault if his forward can't cycle or possess the puck down low and now the other team has it?

Anyways, Provorov played great last night and any analytics that disprove this are simply numbers that show how flat the rest of the team was playing St Louis the night after playing Chicago

 

[Tripod]

Calling a game in which a player is out-chanced on-ice by a 3-1 ratio "masterful" is a rather startling dissonance, no?



He's p good.

I don't much mind the player, it's the frame of argument used on this site (that implicitly places your opinion of Provorov in a linear correlation with the breadth of your hockey analytical ability) which rubs me the wrong way.



That's the thing, last night he didn't play that way. He spent a lot of time chasing in his own zone and blocking shots.

I didn't include your strawman, but I actually think Provorov is good, albeit he had a bad game against a great team last night. It happens.

So you didn't watch the game either?

 

[FlyersFanSinceBirth]

He's p good.

I don't much mind the player, it's the frame of argument used on this site (that implicitly places your opinion of Provorov in a linear correlation with the breadth of your hockey analytical ability) which rubs me the wrong way.

Since you put it that way, I understand. I don't see how anyone could watch him play and not see him as something special. But the fact that you don't see him as something special doesn't make you any less knowledgeable of a hockey fan. Different strokes for different folks. Plus I've definitely fallen victim to liking a player less because of the ridiculous amount of hype they get on here.

 

[StoneHands]

That's the thing, last night he didn't play that way. He spent a lot of time chasing in his own zone and blocking shots.

Chasing in his own zone blocking shots? 6 of his blocked shots came on the PK. How good does he have to be that you don't even think he should be in his own zone on a PK?

You know Provorov is on the ice with 4 other guys, right? He was consistently getting the puck out of the zone last night and St. Louis was like men against boys in the neutral zone and would almost instantly bang a body and bring the puck back into the zone. This is why Provorov was on the ice for 3 minutes at one point during the second on a long change. He cleared the zone 3 times himself that shift but the forwards couldn't get the puck deep enough for him to get off. Not to mention, he was carrying around a rookie defenseman with 13 games on his resume who was forced to play 24+ minutes.

I actually think Provorov is good, albeit he had a bad game against a great team last night. It happens.

You're literally the only person who thinks he had a bad game last night and the only explaination would be that you simply looked at number instead of tuning in. I'm sorry but I really have to just assume you didn't watch it at all.