VanIslander
A 19-year ATDer on HfBoards
Reflect on the draft picks and on your team's development and post your line-up here for review by the rest of us.
Daytona Beach Breakers
coach: Peter Laviolette
Fred Scanlan - Cliff Ronning - Arthur Farrell
Yuri Blinov - Sergei Shepelev - Yevgeny Zimin
Thomas Vanek - Shorty Green - Joe Benoit
Bob McDougall - Jaroslav Holik - Scott Young
Gordon Pettinger - Kelly Buchberger
Bob Murray - Bruce Driver
Haldor Halderson - Eric Brewer
Allan Shields - Warren Godfrey
Anders Eldebrink
Arturs Irbe
Bert Lindsay
You picked the right time to join the ATDs Triffy. Traditionally, the drafts discount players who excelled in lesser leagues, that is, who didn't play in the NHL with Soviets respected only insofar as they've had success internationally against NHLers (read: post-1972). Then pre-NHLers started getting more respect in the draft, because, after all, the NHA and PCHA were the best leagues of the era. Then Bobrov started getting respect, and the WHA, and pre-NHL amateurs and... the floodgates have opened to what had been - and still are - huge question marks. Many stars in juniors, in the AHL and in Europe simply haven't been able to raise their game to the NHL level. Of course, some have. Figuring out which is which in a hypothetical contest of best of all time players is difficult. But GMs in these drafts are willing to give superstars of other leagues the benefit of the doubt in terms of the history of hockey. So...
Helsinki Huskies
Coach: Kalevi Numminen
Jim Riley - Vyacheslav Bykov - Lasse Oksanen (A)
Matti Hagman - Nils Nilsson - Vlastimil Bubnik
Ville Peltonen (A) - Raimo Helminen (C) - Pentti Lund
Bill Warwick - Mikko Koivu - Grant Warwick
David Vyborny, Sami Kapanen
Sergei Babinov - Nikolai Makarov
Tapio Levo - Willie Mitchell
Pekka Marjamäki - Petteri Nummelin
Sami Salo
Seth Martin
Urpo Ylönen
The right winger of that line, Oksanen, played over 250 games for team Finland internationally but I'm unaware of his performances in those contests against, say, the Soviets. How did he do in those games? He played in three Olympics and his team never finished better than fifth. Did his star shine whereas his teammates didn't? I will hesitate to call this clearly one of the best lines in the draft, though I suspect it might be.
I can't believe second line left winger Hagman is touted as perhaps the most talented Finn ever when he couldn't score 60 points in any of three full NHL seasons, nor more than 21 goals a season in his prime.
Helminen had a few kicks at the NHL can and showed that while he could not score goals at that level, his passing was decent and an injury prevented him from showing more. His longtime experience internationally is significant, and I'd like to see some footage of games against Canada's best, Russia's, etc in the '80s and '90s. I don't recall him much from games I've seen of team Finland.
Now let me quibble about a great blueline. Levo proved himself an NHL quality offensive defenseman so no need to risk so much on unproven but potentially great Makarov. I'd switch their positions.
Vyborny is used to losing in Columbus and is a marginal offensive performer at the NHL level so in an all-time context is negligible.
Lynchburg Old No. 7
Coach: Barry Trotz
Jack McDonald - Herb Jordan - Tony Gingras (C)
Dolly Swift - Don Raleigh - Ken Mallen
Ethan Moreau - Todd Marchant (A) - Chico Maki
Hib Milks - Jude Drouin - Jimmy Ward
Dave Semenko, Andrei Lomakin
Art Moore (A) - Roy Rickey
Eric Weinrich - Brad Marsh
Keith Brown - Reggie Fleming
Mark Streit
Billy Nicholson
Hal Winkler
Japan Killer Whales
Coaches: Al MacNeil, Brent Sutter
Darcy Rota - Pelle Eklund - Haviland Routh
Miroslav Satan - Art Jackson - Steve Sullivan
Greg Gilbert - Ted Hampson (A) - Pat Flatley (A)
Andre Boudrias - Alexei Zhamnov - Glenn Brydson
Alexei Yashin
Allan Cameron (C) - Willie Huber
Gordie Roberts - Gord Lane
Jocelyn Guevremont - Craig Rivet
Pat Quinn
Tom Paton
Alfie Moore
established himself as a solid NHL sniper. - LOH
Born in Fort William, Ontario, Poile was a local hero with a fine scoring touch and a deadly accurate shot. He was leading the Thunder Bay League in scoring when the Toronto Maple Leafs signed him to a professional contract in November 1942. He led Toronto in playoff scoring in 1943 and formed the effective "Flying Forts" line with fellow Fort William natives Gus Bodnar and Gaye Stewart. - LOH
Defenceman Dale Tallon possessed unquestionable skill with the puck and was a superior quarterback on the power play. He was also a rugged competitor whose solid career was overshadowed by Gilbert Perreault, the man picked just ahead of him in the Amateur Draft. - LOH
Although he was the team's policeman, he preferred to play it clean, handling the rough stuff only when it came knocking at his door. Otherwise, he earned his bread and butter as a rugged, stay-at-home defender in the mold of his father. - LOH
Left-winger Butch Keeling was a fine goal scorer who also competed well in the playoffs. He spent a dozen years in the NHL, mostly with the New York Rangers, and won a Stanley Cup in 1933 with the Blueshirts.Keeling became a constant in the Blueshirts' line-up over the next decade and some of his linemates included Babe Siebert and Murray Murdoch. On March 21, 1929, he scored only the second overtime goal in Rangers history when he accounted for the winner in the quarter-finals versus the New York Americans.- LOH
Career high of 42 goals, was a point-per-game player during the prime of his career. Played very well on the international stage.He was gifted playmaker with speed and a quick release. He was also solid on his skates and not easy to bump off the puck. His big league career was one of the most productive ever by an American player. - LOH
At the height of his game, Tanti was one of the most feared snipers in the league. At just 5 ft 9 in 180 pounds, he had a knack for eluding opposing checkers and darting around defensemen. - Wiki
Since making his NHL debut in 1994-95, Oleg Tverdovsky has developed into a dangerous offensive force. His smooth skating, puck handling, and lethal shot have made him a dangerous foe on the power play as well as five-on-five. - LOH
Jorgen Pettersson had skated six seasons in the Swedish Elite League with Vastra Frolunda before he was finally enticed to cross the Atlantic to take on the NHL.
The enticement came from St. Louis Blues GM Emile Francis. He personally flew to Stockholm to verify that the stylish, speedy Swede was the real deal. Impressed with his disciplined play and puck handling skills, Francis brought him to St. Louis and placed him on a line with Blake Dunlop and Joe Mullen. The fit was right as Pettersson made a mark on the league by registering 73 points in 62 games.
Over succeeding seasons, he continued to develop into a more complete package as an outstanding penalty killer and above-average defensive player who was willing to bump with the opposition.
Patey dropped his studies and joined the Seals for one game before being dispatched to Salt Lake City for a year of seasoning. He then returned to Oakland and was given an offensive role, including power plays and extra ice time. He netted a career-high 25 goals during his only full season with the Seals. He was then traded to St. Louis early in the next campaign. Once in the Blues' fold, he was remolded into a defensive specialist. He joined Mike Crombeen as collective gadflies to the oppositions' top lines. In the process, Patey became and accomplished short-handed scorer, pumping home eight goals in 1981?a Blues' team record. He also finished as a runner-up to Canadiens' Bob Gainey for the Frank Selke Trophy as the league's best defensive forward.
Right-winger Bobby Gould played nearly 700 NHL games between 1979-80 and 1989-90. He was an excellent two-way worker who could create scoring chances with diligent fore checking while embracing defensive responsibilities.
Gould scored 18 goals for the Caps in the last 60 games of the 1981-82 season and remained with the club the rest of the decade. He topped the 20-goal mark three times and was a key forward on the club as it shed its laughing stock image and became one of the top clubs in the NHL. Prior to the 1989-90 season he was traded to the Boston Bruins for Alain Cote. He was a solid worker on his new club and helped them reach the Stanley Cup finals that year.
Al Dewsbury was one of the giants of the game in the 1940s and 1950s. By today's standards, he would be considered just an average-sized player, but back then a 6'2" 202-pound rearguard was a very imposing figure to many of the smaller players in the game. One of the main reasons he was so attractive to the Wings was his aggressive style of play
Moe Mantha was an offensive-minded defenceman who came in handy with five different organizations in a career that lasted over 650 games. He was a fine quarterback on the power play whose confidence moving up ice with the puck was a boost to his team's transition game.
Mantha fit in well on the fast-skating team that was developing around rookie sensation Mario Lemieux. The talented rearguard scored 51 points his first year in Pittsburgh and scored twice while helping the U.S. finish fourth at the 1985 World Championships.
In his second season, he tallied 42 points in 47 games. By then he'd become known as "Bep" because broadcaster Foster Hewitt didn't want to tangle his tongue around Guidolin's birth-given name. But by 1944, his eligibility for military service brought a one-year break from his NHL career.
In 1945, Guidolin picked up where he left off this time against stronger lineups across the league. But his 175-pounds of raw muscle was up to the task. He continued to score at a respectable pace for two more seasons with the Bruins before trades took him to Detroit and on the his final NHL stop in Chicago.
4 time cup winner.Rugged, tough, fearless. Those are the types of words that come to mind when the name Kevin McClelland is mentioned. Growing up in Oshawa, Ontario McClelland always had the natural scoring talent which was combined with a tough grittiness, often resulting in fisticuffs.
In December, 1983 McClelland was traded to the Edmonton Oilers where he enjoyed the bulk of his success in the NHL, playing on four Stanley Cup championship teams in 1984, 1985, 1987 and 1988. The biggest goal of his career came in Game One of the 1984 Stanley Cup finals against the New York Islanders when McClelland scored the game's only marker, giving the club a 1-0 lead in the series.
McClelland's presence was a definite asset in the 1995 Stanley Cup finals against the rough and tough Philadelphia Flyers. With Dave Semenko moved on in those later years, McClelland took on an increased role as team policeman in the mid 1980s, which he performed admirably. The Oilers and Flyers met again in the 1987 finals, with the Oilers coming out on top. Edmonton defended its title in 1988, sweeping the Boston Bruins in four straight games.
He was chosen as the CHL Goaltender-of-the-Year; and, he made the Memorial Cup All-Star team and took home the Hap Emms Memorial Trophy as the top goaltender of the tournament. He then joined Team Canada to win a gold medal at the World Junior Championships.
In his early years with the Leafs, Potvin was a workhorse who, in his first big-league campaign, carried his club to the semi-finals where they eventually lost to Wayne Gretzky and his Los Angeles Kings. By the time he'd completed his six-year run with the Blue and White, Potvin had more games played and wins than all other Leafs stoppers except for Turk Broda and Johnny Bower. He set a club record, leading the league in games played with 74 during the 1996-97 season. During that campaign, he faced more shots than any goaltender in league history.
Sonmor coached at various levels in Junior ice hockey, at Ohio State University, and at the University of Minnesota. He joined the fledgling Minnesota Fighting Saints of the World Hockey Association as coach and general manager in 1972. Sonmor gave up coaching duties in the middle of the 1972–73 season, but continued as GM. After the original Fighting Saints folded in 1976, the WHA's Cleveland Crusaders moved to St. Paul and changed their name to the New Minnesota Fighting Saints. Sonmor was hired as the New Saints' coach and general manager. The New Saints folded in January 1977. Sonmor later coached the WHA's Birmingham Bulls. Sonmor was head coach for the Minnesota North Stars of the National Hockey League for four seasons, leading the team to the 1981 Stanley Cup Finals, only to lose in five games to the New York Islanders.
Rest assured, the fix will be made. But I dont agree with your comment on Lane. I never saw him play, but LOH credits him greatly during the 4 year playoff run. He and Langevin shut down the offenses they faced and although he will take some penalties..his contribution on ice will be greatly needed. He's ahead of Quinn by far in my opinion. It's not like Quinn never was in the box. He had 950 PIM in a little over 600 games.Okay, I see chaosrevolver has updated his roster thread with completed 2-3 line descriptions of his picks. And he's posted his line-up here. Time to assassinate:
As it stands now, clearly one of the weakest first lines in the draft. Rota has one good scoring season, Eklund four good passing seasons but Routh does seem like a bona fide first liner in an all-time context. But that could all change. It's funny that Zhamnov and Yashin are fourth line/extra when they are clearly this team's top two offensive pivots. Yeah, they are lesser picks, but they should be on the top two lines or on the bench. And this team needs them playing. The forward lines could be:
Darcy Rota - Alexei Zhamnov/Alexei Yashin - Haviland Routh
Andre Boudrias - Pelle Eklund - Steve Sullivan
Miroslav Satan - Ted Hampson (A) - Pat Flatley (A)
Greg Gilbert - Art Jackson - Glenn Brydson
Notice how Gilbert and Satan drop a bit to allow room on the second line for Boudrais to play with Eklund on a two-way excellent second line.
The Killer Whales is a team deep with role players and intangibles. Japan could create a lot of turnovers and capitalize on them in transition and outwork many an opposition.
The Japanese defense is a good pairing of offensive-minded with defensive-minded, with a bonafide #1 in Cameron as the team captain and a great third pairing. Lane might have too many PIMs and have played too few full seasons to be reliable on the second pairing, in fact, I'm surprised he's been drafted. Quinn seems like a better option, Lane a bench extra. And if the Killer Whales wants to ice its best two defensemen it'd be a Cameron - Roberts pairing, which seems perfect, though splitting them up does ensure some excellence on each pairing. In terms of ice time, what dman will be the #3? It's not clear that Huber would be any better than Guevremont, Rivet or Quinn. In fact, this team needs a third great defenseman to be at the level of several other teams in this draft. But as a core, the blueline has the tools to hold its own and contribute offensively. At worst, it's average. At best, one of the best fits in terms of team chemistry.
The goaltending is first rate and Moran will benefit greatly from there being defensively responsible skaters up and down the line up. It wil be hard to score against the Killer Whales, be assured.
The coaching duo combines attention to detail and lack of ego with hard work and a defensive conscience. An ideal fit.
Overall, this team is scary to play against. The scoring is spread out, the checking constant, the goaltending solid. All the Killer Whales really need to adjust in terms of the lines to put in a bona fide first line pivot to maximize Routh and give the team front end elite offensive skill; Boudrias ought to move up; Huber and Lane may be overplayed on the backend, in the all-time context of this draft.
Legends of Hockey said:He was paired with Dave Langevin and as a duo the two played solid, kitty-bar-the-door defense that laid the necessary foundation to help lead the club to four-straight Stanley Cup victories. Lane has been credited as being the team's most effective defender during that era.
New York Islanders Core of the Four said:Every championship team needs that one player to do the little things that may go unnoticed, but certainly not unappreciated. Gord Lane was the defender the Islanders needed to help bring greatness to Long Island.
Paired with Dave Langevin, Lane flourished in his new role with the Islanders. He was the tough stay at home defender that the Islanders had been looking for. It turned out to be a match made in heaven, as the Islanders won their first of four straight championships that season.
The pre-NHL first line is solid offensively, all with clutch performances at the highest level, though it might be a line with two finishers and a puck-hogging rover: Who's the playmaking passer? The second line are also all scorers. It's hard to get a clear sense of how these lines could mesh. They are just good offensive picks, little detail about their style.
So, Old No. 7 is full of offensively talented forwards (except for Moreau). Yet, not only doesn't there seem to be a pure passer per se, but otherwise it seems short on role players. Yes, there's enforcer Semenko to keep the other teams honest and minimize cheapshots against - a good pick for THIS line-up - but where are the forecheckers off of the third line? the energy guys? the hitters? the guys who will do more than just wait to get the puck back. It seems like the team has two or three too many generally offensively skilled forwards. The first two lines and the fourth line wingers comprise an 8-forward bunch of indistinct puck handlers. More info desired on how they'd play. Throw a Victorias' Bertuzzi or Sharks' Chamberlain onto one of the scoring lines, even a hustlin' Killer Whale like Sullivan, and this team would be improved as a team. This is quibbling a bit since, after all, it's a well-drafted list of picks in any event.
Without mincing words: the Old No. 7 blueline is below average for this draft. Moreover, in terms of team chemistry, the defense in Lynchburg ought to be more like the Breakers but instead are a less offensive stay at home bunch. Husky Moore and plodding Marsh certainly are and they're on the top two pairings. Rickey is pretty unknown: what does he bring to a blueline? Sources please. Yes, he played a longtime and so did the Old No. 7's Weinrich, but that is no reason to have them on the top-4 unless they were on dynasty teams, which they weren't. The third pairing is quality, and perhaps ought to be the second pairing. Brown is physical and can pass; Fleming is gritty and can score though gets into penalty trouble.
Overall, this is a team with more question marks than the Huskies, surprisingly enough. Not about talent or performance against the best as much in terms of details about style and team chemistry. While one expects such with pre-NHL era players, on a team with so many of them, it can be disconcerting. There is a lot written about many old era greats, so I wonder if more could be provided about the guys drafted here in terms of style of play. Maybe Kyle could enlighten us on how the line-up meshes together, other than the obvious play of the third line and third defensive pairing.
I personally do research the hell out of old era picks and there IS much more available on the Internet than seen at first blush on google. Most people don't have the free time or interest to dig it up. I certainly have made it a hobby of mine. When I began the all-time drafts back in ATD3 I chose mostly modern era guys who I knew or could easily research. I think I - like many others - stretch out their horizons over time in the drafts. That's why YOU are so surprising. You come in and reach right back to the earliest eras and choose some great picks, and some "interesting" picks screaming for more. I won't take the time now, but trust I'll be spending a Saturday or two researching your old era picks when the next MLD comes around.I'm not going to kill an entire Saturday trying to figure out if Herb Jordan was a great passer. If it's not stated on a website or book that i'm familiar with, I'm probably not going to search long enough to find it. You have provided lots of info about your old-timers though, so one of these days I want to go back and check out some of those sources you cited in greater detail. Perhaps then I will find the coveted playing-style descriptions.
I think at the AAA level, picking someone based on talent is acceptable. I would rather have Blinov's talent level than a less talented player who had a longer career.What's with the Soviet line? Blinov had speed, hard work and a wrist shot but was a disappointment overall, certainly not on anyone's list of top-50 Soviets of all time (not even an honorable mention, more like a footnote), underappreciated in the '72 Summit Series, which was his career year! bumped off lines, certainly had his chance to play on top lines for the national team but only lasted 37 games with the national team and in the Soviet league scored only 119 goals. If he is ON, he will have a decent season, but his career isn't long and his peak isn't impressive, but he was good enough to have earned the chance a few times on top Soviet lines and so is a roll-the-dice kind of performer here. (There is another right winger from the '72 Summit Series who remains undrafted but who WAS both impressive in the Summit Series AND went on to a long fruitful career on the national team, and brought a toughness to go along with his scoring, a much better pick imo and a better fit for this line. Consider an add/drop.)
I disagree. The MLD and AAA isn't about lowering standards it's about finding players who meet the higher standards of the ATD or close to it, the overlooked greats from hockey's history, the guys who could have been drafted in the main ATD, a resource guide for future ATDs as indeed they've been. We are not talking about first line ATDers as much as about depth picks, third and fourth liners, deserving extra skaters, backup goalies in an ATD context.I think at the AAA level, picking someone based on talent is acceptable.
Round 14
Vitali Davydov, D
Edward Ivanov, D
Valeri Kamensky, LW
Dave Burrows, D
Lorne Chabot, G
Rogie Vachon, G
Orland Kurtenbach, C
John Ferguson, LW
Curtis Joseph, G
Round 15
Helmut Balderis, RW
Marcel Bonin, LW
Dany Heatley, LW
Stan Smyl RW
Jason Spezza C
Teppo Numminen D
James Patrick D
Ken Daneyko D
Round 16
Jiri Holik LW
Mike McPhee LW
Tom Anderson, D
Frantisek Tikal, D
Andre "Moose" Dupont, D
Mike Keane, RW
Round 18
Keith Magnuson, D
Ab McDonald, LW
Tomas Holmstrom, LW/RW
Ryan Walter, C/LW
Round 19
Herb Brooks, Coach
Bob Davidson, LW
Alexei Kovalev, RW/LW
Phil Russell, D
Bernie Morris, F
Calle Johansson, D
Ian Turnbull, D
Tomas Kaberle, D
Dave Balon, LW
Round 21
Barry Ashbee, D
Doru Tureanu, C
Jack Adams, C
Eddie Oatman, RW
Roy Worters, G
Normie Smith, G
Round 22
Gary Bergman, D
Chris Osgood, G
Erich Kühnhackl, C
Fred Stanfield, C
Jiri Bubla, D
Randy McKay, RW
Tim Hunter, W
Yuri Liapkin, D
Georges Mantha, LW/D
Bob Dailey, D
Round 24
Andre Lacroix, C
Bob Turner, D
Hakan Loob, RW
I'm not really lowering standards, what I was trying to say is I would rather pick a talented player with a shorter career than a player who is less talented, but played longer. The ideal ATD pick had both talent and longevity, but it's tough to find scoring fowards in the AAA draft who accomplished both.I disagree. The MLD and AAA isn't about lowering standards it's about finding players who meet the higher standards of the ATD or close to it, the overlooked greats from hockey's history, the guys who could have been drafted in the main ATD, a resource guide for future ATDs as indeed they've been. We are not talking about first line ATDers as much as about depth picks, third and fourth liners, deserving extra skaters, backup goalies in an ATD context.
The building of teams themselves is secondary, a fun extra imo.
talent, career and peak... finding players who had 2 of those 3 isn't so hard, finding all three isThe ideal ATD pick had both talent and longevity, but its tough to find scoring fowards in the AAA draft who accomplished both.