Books: A Song of Ice and Fire *SPOILERS* Part XIV
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It kind of sucks because no matter what happens with the books we'll always wonder if Martin came up with it originally, or if the show affected some of the choices he makes. Like if the final season disappoints, does Martin change things up or just stick with what he wrote? For that matter, how much of what's happening in the show was based off points Martin gave them and how much is just Benioff and Weiss freestyling?
Blender
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I actually think there will be quite a few disappointed people with how many of his side stories actually have a point in the end game. I definitely suspect that he decided at some point to do all these side stories as a way to do more world building, exploring the history, and expanding the lore, but got so bogged down in the detail of them that it has derailed his writing a bit and he is now having trouble tying them all off. The fact that the show has cut so many of them completely, and heavily altered others makes me think that they have little bearing on the end game at all.
Emperoreddy
Show Me What You Got!
I think he really wanted to also build and give us looks into what the small folks and lesser lords are doing and feeling over all of this.
The problem he got way too bogged down in doing this, and some people think these aren't just asides, but giant lore dumps and foreshadowing.
RandV
It's a wolf v2.0
People can complain if they want but there's really no helping it. To keep a story like ASoIF on pace and under control you'd have to meticulously plan it from the start, like the Malazan series or the ongoing Stormlight Archives.
But GRRM's creativity is intuitive, as a writer he's constantly revising and rethinking the story as he works through it. It's impossibly for him to write in a way that would appease the insatiable appetite of many of his readers. It sucks waiting but you have to let the man finish his book (or not) on his own terms.
But GRRM's creativity is intuitive, as a writer he's constantly revising and rethinking the story as he works through it. It's impossibly for him to write in a way that would appease the insatiable appetite of many of his readers. It sucks waiting but you have to let the man finish his book (or not) on his own terms.
Siamese Dream
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I think the general fan consensus is that he's going to spread it and create an epidemic, no? That's what most thought was going to happen in the show with Jorah, which would be significant.
Siamese Dream
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I think the reason he has built up the side stories like Dorne and the Iron Islands is because like in the show they're going to take a side, and it's much better if he builds them up and explores their background and motives before they do so. It would be a bit dumb if Dany just snapped her finger and Dorne joined her, kind of like in The Return of the King when Aragorn conveniently recruits the undead army to help them out. Dorne will be different because we know book Doran does want revenge and does want to side with a Targaryen, not just sit around and get killed like he does in the show. The Quentyn story was obviously kind of pointless, but again it's world building, in the show because they've cut so many characters several of the great families went extinct or are close to extinction because they unrealistically cut so many siblings (I've mentioned this before about how it devalues the struggles of characters like Stannis and Jon Arryn to produce heirs). In the books the Tyrells are a massive family, you've got Willas, Garlan and Margaery's cousins, all inconsequential characters of course but it's just more realistic to have them there, there is always some distant cousin who can inherit if the main branch of the family dies like when Cersei blew them up in the show. I'm sure if they hadn't followed the books so closely at the start they probably would've cut Rickon Stark.
La Cosa Nostra
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Dorne isn't joining Dany. They're joining fAegon.
And the books are never coming out. Oh well. Would have been nice to see Ramsay dead by Stannis hand. People truly think the Boltons will slaughter Stannis? Get real. Wyman Manderly is going to attack the Freys/Boltons and secure the victory. Davos is on a mission for Wyman not Jon Snows BFF. He doesn't even know Jon ****ing Snow in the books, Davos was always at eastwatch not castle black.
Not to mention he has the iron bank now, why the **** would GRRM have Tycho meet Stannis at the very beginning of book 6 offering the iron banks gold just for him to literally die in the next chapter. He has 20,000 sellswords coming. The pink letter was a ruse to get Jon to leave the watch. In theon I of twow they captured the dreadfort maester. AND THE PINK WAX. The Boltons are at winterfell why would they have dreadfort material to send the raven when the dreadfort maester is with Stannis? I know everyone hates Stannis and loves their cute little Dany/Jon romance but Stannis is the true king. His Targaryen claim is even better then Daenerys. He is a great grandson of a monarch, those come before daughters of ones in Westeros. Don't worry I'm not blind, I know Stannis isn't winning the throne for good. But he'll have a much better conclusion then those D and D *********** gave him.
And the books are never coming out. Oh well. Would have been nice to see Ramsay dead by Stannis hand. People truly think the Boltons will slaughter Stannis? Get real. Wyman Manderly is going to attack the Freys/Boltons and secure the victory. Davos is on a mission for Wyman not Jon Snows BFF. He doesn't even know Jon ****ing Snow in the books, Davos was always at eastwatch not castle black.
Not to mention he has the iron bank now, why the **** would GRRM have Tycho meet Stannis at the very beginning of book 6 offering the iron banks gold just for him to literally die in the next chapter. He has 20,000 sellswords coming. The pink letter was a ruse to get Jon to leave the watch. In theon I of twow they captured the dreadfort maester. AND THE PINK WAX. The Boltons are at winterfell why would they have dreadfort material to send the raven when the dreadfort maester is with Stannis? I know everyone hates Stannis and loves their cute little Dany/Jon romance but Stannis is the true king. His Targaryen claim is even better then Daenerys. He is a great grandson of a monarch, those come before daughters of ones in Westeros. Don't worry I'm not blind, I know Stannis isn't winning the throne for good. But he'll have a much better conclusion then those D and D *********** gave him.
Emperoreddy
Show Me What You Got!
Miamipuck
Al Swearengen
Oh Stannis my one and only, I love you so much, I dream about you night and day. I have your sigil tattooed on my calf.
Why are book readers so butt hurt??? the show is ahead of the books. It's still an amazing show. Deal with it.
To crap on D and D is an complete insult to all the dedicated workers who make that show what it is. It's EXTREMELY well written.
Get off your high horse.
RandV
It's a wolf v2.0
There's certainly not going to be a battle of the ******** where Jon Snow gets saved at the last minute by the Knights of the Vale... but while I believe there's some duplicity going on and think Stannis could still be alive, it's also entirely possible that the Northern lords want to get rid of both Stannis and the Bolton's have killed Stannis in there plot. They have the whole "Great Northern Conspiracy" thing going on, and we don't know how that will play out.
As for Dany, I think it's worth noting that in the books her plotline as a leader ran parallel to Jon's, and ended in an even bigger disaster. Mereen is utterly broken in her absence, between the dragon's terrorizing from the sky and the besieging army catapulting plague corpses into the city. And whether or not she gains the loyalty of the Dothraki, that hasn't happened yet and Victarion Greyjoy is already on Mereen's doorsteps about to hit the city.
Season 5 ended with Dany saving Mereen, some friendly Greyjoy's showing up with ships, and the Martell's + Tyrell's showing up simultaneously with their own ships to pledge allegiance, letting them all sail together to Westeros as a big happy unbeatable armada.
Obviously none of that is happening with Winds of Winter. Can only guess as to what will happen, but at the very least the Golden Company + Dorne wouldn't be openly hostile to Dany but rather more be looking for an alliance. fAegon's motivation for sailing after all was at Tyrion's advice, making himself a conquer and an equal for when the Dragon Queen shows up.
Blender
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You have absolutely no clue how primogeniture works if you think Stannis has a stronger Targaryen claim than Daenerys. Stannis' claim is entirely based on Robert's conquest.
SettlementRichie10
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How much of this insane plan is just the show getting all these characters to the same place? They're scattered all over the damn place in the books, and I don't think Martin even knows how he's going to get some of them together. Assuming of course that there is any of this Magnificent Seven type stuff in the books and they're not just completely freestyling.
I could get behind the logic of this mission if they were a hit squad going after the Night King to try to end the war before it starts, but trying to pick off a wight or WW out of that giant mass of them, then to get it back south to a queen who, quite honestly I don't think gives a **** seems...unlikely to succeed.
I could get behind the logic of this mission if they were a hit squad going after the Night King to try to end the war before it starts, but trying to pick off a wight or WW out of that giant mass of them, then to get it back south to a queen who, quite honestly I don't think gives a **** seems...unlikely to succeed.
canuckster19
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Siamese Dream
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The Baratheons are descended from one of Aegon V's daughters and they are men so they come first, just like how they came before Myrcella even though she was the daughter of the king just like how Dany was the daughter of the king. The line of succession would skip over Dany as if she didn't exist and go back through the king's lineage to find the first eligible male. Under normal primogeniture Dany would come before them because she's from a male's line and the Baratheons are from a female line, but the Targaryen succession rules are quite clear that there must be absolutely no males before you can have a queen.
But in the show they skipped out an entire generation of the Targaryen family, Maester Aemon says Aerys II is Aegon V's son, when actually he's his grandson. So in the show I think we're meant to think Egg's only children were Aerys and Rhaella
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Blender
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Fully aware that they are descended from Rhaelle Targaryen, who was the youngest daughter of Aegon V.
So the Targaryens have some special form of succession that has never been used in history where you exclude females from the line of succession in favor of males, but you can still trace succession through a female? The Baratheons should have no claim at all over typical succession laws even though they are male, since they are not descended from the male line. If they use agnatic (male only), the Baratheons would have zero claim as they are descended from the female line and neither would Daenerys. If they use agnatic-cognatic (male preference) as you are saying, Daenerys has a stronger claim than the Baratheons as she is descended from the male line while you have to trace the Baratheons through a daughter from three generations ago. Male preference inheritance only traces lineage through the male line to find male successors, which is the system I understand GRRM used for the Targaryens, but he was never that clear on it so I am going to default to how it actually works in real life.
Stannis and Renly don't actually come before Myrcella in Westeros succession (assuming "Robert's" children are recognized as legitimate, which the entire war was about). The oldest male child inherits first, followed by every other male or the sons of any of those males. If no male children or their children are left, it falls to a daughter. Stannis was legally the heir at Robert's death because he had no legitimate children.
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Siamese Dream
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I am pretty sure the great council decided that they could not have a queen, the Targaryens inheritance rule is unique to the rest of Westeros where daughters still come before brothers I believe.
In Game of Thrones Renly literally says "I'm 4th in line" - behind Joffrey, Tommen and Stannis. This is skipping Myrcella in favour of the brothers.
Because Dany is the last member of the Aerys line and she is a woman, they have to go back through all the male lines first to find a male, and they wouldn't find any still living, so they then have to go through the female lines in the hope of finding a male, which they would with the Baratheons. I thought they've made it quite clear in the Targaryens inheritance rules having a queen is an absolute last resort if there are literally no males.
Blender
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I looked back into it, you're right that Renly would be fourth in line as the Iron Throne uses the Targaryen succession rules not the typical Andal succession rules that the rest of the realm uses, which would prefer a daughter of the direct line over a brother. For example, Edmure dies before he has a kid, and Catelyn would inherit Riverrun as the eldest remaining child of Hoster, not Brynden. For the Iron Throne though, a brother of the male line would have preference over a daughter, so Renly is ahead of Myrcella.
What you are saying about the Baratheons makes absolutely no sense with the type of succession you are claiming they practice. Either females have inheritance rights in some way, or they don't. You are trying to have it both ways here where Daenerys who is in direct line is excluded in favor of males descended from a female. If the inheritance rules prefers any male before a female, that would be any male through the male line, not a female line. The Baratheons are through a female line, which means they wouldn't have any legal claim on the throne through succession laws except in the absolute last resort (Robert's Targaryen heritage was used as a convenient reason after they had already won the Throne). It makes sense that you would go through all the male lines first to find a male successor, and when that fails you would then go through females, but the first person in the line of female succession is Daenerys, not Rhaelle. You can either inherit through females or you can't, but it would be a female within the male line. The Baratheons are not within the male line of Targaryen succession, which means despite being males they don't count in the line of succession unless every decedent in the male line is dead, which isn't the case.
EDIT: Here is the quote you are referencing, which means neither Daenerys nor the Baratheons have a legal claim on the Throne and that the line is officially dead without Jon Snow or (f)Aegon being legitimate.
Regardless, it's essentially up for grabs by right of conquest as most titles have always been.
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Siamese Dream
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That's interesting, I must have missed the nor through a woman or her descendants bit. I was just trying to use a bit of common sense and assuming they would rather have the Baratheon brothers than a woman or nothing at all. I still think it makes sense that they would go through the male line and end at Dany, and ignore her because she is a woman, and then go through all the female lines (but skipping past the actual females) to find a man. It's not too far-fetched to consider this as an option when as you say Robert did use this to further cement his claim, if it was all about conquest then surely there was no need to bother.
I don't think any of this applies to the show though, since they seem to have skipped out the generation of Aegon V's actual children and gone straight to Aerys II who Aemon says is his brother's son. So I think in the show we're meant to assume Aerys and Rhaella were the only children of Egg and since Jaeherys II didn't exist neither did Rhaelle Targaryen and the Baratheons aren't related except for going all the way back to Orys Baratheon half-brother of Aegon the Conqueror.
I don't think any of this applies to the show though, since they seem to have skipped out the generation of Aegon V's actual children and gone straight to Aerys II who Aemon says is his brother's son. So I think in the show we're meant to assume Aerys and Rhaella were the only children of Egg and since Jaeherys II didn't exist neither did Rhaelle Targaryen and the Baratheons aren't related except for going all the way back to Orys Baratheon half-brother of Aegon the Conqueror.
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Blender
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It doesn't make sense though, since you can't go through the female line unless females have inheritance rights. As soon as you apply inheritance rights to females, it stops at Daenerys. If only males can inherit, the Baratheons have no rights since they are descended from a female.
You're really jumping through hoops here to try and prove that Stannis is the heir to the Targaryen line of succession, which is completely unnecessary since he is pressing his claim on the Iron Throne based on Robert's conquest of it. Robert used his Targaryen heritage to give him ex post facto legitimacy after he had already won, not as a reason to launch a war to begin with.
Siamese Dream
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It wasn't me who first said Stannis is the true king, I couldn't give a rat's arse about Stannis, I'm just saying I understand the logic behind what the other person is saying
RandV
It's a wolf v2.0
I don't really like this line of thinking towards Stannis. Of the great houses who banded together to overthrow the Targaryan's, The Baratheon's had the best royal lineage claim. But if you consider their actual lineage as a legal claim against Daenerys, then certainly there must be dozens of other offshoots that can put in their claim, and likely well ahead of Stannis.
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