A more despised championship man in history? The Oilers' Peter Pocklington or the Bulls' GMJerry Krause?

[Crosby2010]

The other night there was a nice ring of honour for the Chicago Bulls. Not everyone was able to make it, but it still happened and most of you may know that Jerry Krause the GM of the Bulls dynasty in the 1980s and 1990s is no longer with us, but his widow was on hand to accept the award in his honour. When his name and picture were posted on the scoreboard there was a rain of boos (and to be fair there were some cheers when they showed the widow). So some backstory, the Bulls won 6 championships, two threepeats from 1991-'93 and 1996-'98. Then the team was famously broken up. If I remember the kicker was that Krause mentioned coach Phil Jackson wouldn't be returning the following year. This led to Jordan saying he would not play for anyone but Jackson, so he retired. Scottie Pippen was going to be a free agent and get paid more handsomely so he left. Dennis Rodman was at the end of his career any but he left too. There goes a team that had just won three in a row and it seemed could have won 4. I mean, who knows, we will never know. I would never bet against Michael Jordan but I guess the idea was they were getting older and would need to rebuild. I never get this, because you just simply don't break up a dynasty until they are beaten on the court. The Celtics and Lakers both got bested by the Pistons and they faded away naturally. Ditto for the Pistons, they lost to the Bulls in 1991 after back to back championships. They didn't trade Isiah Thomas after 1990 and break the team up in the boardroom, they lost where it counts on the court. So that with the combination of the popular documentary "Last Dance" about the Bulls, I can see why the Bulls fans don't like what Krause did by breaking up the team before it was even proven that they couldn't win anymore on the court, but two things here, number one he would have likely needed ownership to push this on him first, and second, he helped them win 6 championships. So I can see both sides here. However, you shouldn't boo a deceased man like that in front of his widow, that looked ugly.

But it made me think, if the Oilers ever dared to bring Peter Pocklington to centre ice for a ceremony he would likely be jeered badly, even at 82 years old. Like Krause, Pocklington dismantled a dynasty in the boardrooms of arenas and not on the ice. I think the Oilers in 1988 were poised to win more than the Bulls in 1998 who may have had just one more in them, while historically speaking most of us think the Oilers win multiple Cups on top of what they did had Pocklington not shipped Gretzky off in 1988. And yet, they won 5 championships overall, much like the Bulls. But with Krause I get the feeling it may or may not have been his call, while Pocklington the owner went behind the true architect of the Oilers in Glen Sather and shipped away Gretzky. It was the backhanded idea that irked fans to this day. Krause didn't do that while Pocklington did, and doesn't regret it to this day (man does that guy make my blood boil!).

So who is more despised by their fan base?

Click to read more...

 

[LightningStorm]

Wow great question OP! So many different angles to look at this from. I still haven't decided yet, so I'll list what made each one worse than the other.

Pocklington

He engaged in unscrupulous business practices that led to him trading Gretzky to pay off business debts and getting into legal trouble.

As mentioned by the OP, the Oilers in 1988 had much more contention life in them than the Bulls in 1998, as Gretzky was only 27 and Jordan was 35 during those years. What Pocklington did timing wise would've been like if Krause traded Jordan after the first 3 peat instead of Jordan briefly retiring to play baseball, and even then Jordan was 30, so still older than Gretzky was in 1988. OP's point about Pippen being a free agent is also important, as he and Krause never got along due to him being underpaid all those seasons. There was zero chance Pippen was returning, even if Jordan didn't retire.

Krause

Pocklington at least put hockey people in charge to run the team and left his ego out of the way. While Krause was a basketball person, he wanted the credit for the Bulls dynasty and to prove he was the reason for it, hence why he wanted to show he could still win without Jordan and pushed everyone out early. His 5 seasons afterwards were complete failures before he resigned.

While the Oilers would've had much more contention life left after 1988 than the Bulls after 1998 (they still won the 1990 cup without Gretzky after all), the flip side is the economics of the NHL at the time made the breakup of the Oilers inevitable. Gretzky was never gonna be a career Oiler. Someone with more knowledge about this could fill us in, but I heard there were rumors of him leaving in a couple seasons anyway.

Conclusion

Weighing both situations, I would have to say Pocklington is worse of the two. Even though the Oilers split in the early 90's would've been inevitable, they still had roughly 3-4 seasons left of contention, while 1998 would've been the Bulls last season contending with Pippen being gone afterwards. Even if the Bulls make a run to the 1999 finals, they don't beat the Spurs, and get killed if they make the 2000 finals onward against the Lakers. Meanwhile, the Oilers were still good enough to win the 1990 cup without Gretzky, and would be the cup favorites until Gretzky left sometime in the early 90's.

Fun question OP. Somewhat related to this, these Chicago fans who recently booed Krause also booed Bill Wirtz during a moment of silence following his death.

 

[JianYang]

Wow great question OP! So many different angles to look at this from. I still haven't decided yet, so I'll list what made each one worse than the other.

Pocklington

He engaged in unscrupulous business practices that led to him trading Gretzky to pay off business debts and getting in legal trouble.

As mentioned by the OP, the Oilers in 1988 had much more contention life in them than the Bulls in 1998, as Gretzky was only 27 and Jordan was 35 during those years. What Pocklington did timing wise would've been like if Krause traded Jordan after the first 3 peat instead of Jordan briefly retiring to play baseball, and even then Jordan was 30, so still older than Gretzky was in 1988. OP's point about Pippen being a free agent is also important, as he and Krause never got along due to him being underpaid all those seasons. There was zero chance Pippen was returning, even if Jordan didn't retire.

Krause

Pocklington at least put hockey people in charge to run the team and left his ego out of the way. While Krause was a basketball person, he wanted the credit for the Bulls dynasty and to prove he was the reason for it, hence why he wanted to show he could still win without Jordan and pushed everyone out early. His 5 seasons afterwards were complete failures before he resigned.

While the Oilers would've had much more contention life left after 1988 than the Bulls after 1998 (they still won the 1990 cup without Gretzky after all), the flip side is the economics of the NHL at the time made the breakup of the Oilers inevitable. Gretzky was never gonna be a career Oiler. Someone with more knowledge about this could fill us in, but I heard there were rumors of him leaving in a couple seasons anyway.

Conclusion

Weighing both situations, I would have to say Pocklington is worse of the two. Even with the Oilers split in the early 90's would've been inevitable, they still had roughly 3-4 seasons left of contention, while 1998 would've been the Bulls last season contending with Pippen being gone afterwards. Even if the Bulls make a run to the 1999 finals, they don't beat the Spurs, and get killed if they make the 2000 finals onward against the Lakers. Meanwhile, the Oilers were still good enough to win the 1990 cup without Gretzky, and would be the cup favorites until Gretzky left sometime in the early 90's.

Fun question OP. Somewhat related to this, these Chicago fans who recently booed Krause also booed Bill Wirtz during a moment of silence following his death.

I agree that it's a great question.

I'm not sure the oiler window would be that much longer even if they had kept gretzky though. Pocklington was going to extract cash one way or the other, and if it wasn't gretzky, then he would have likely killed the depth that the team had.

I don't have an answer for the OP. It basically comes down to whether the Bulls fans cared more for Jordan than oiler fans for Gretzky, which is very difficult to quantify.

 

[RegDunlop]

Pocklington was absolutely hated for THE SALE, you are correct.

However time heals a lot of wounds and at one of the reunion ceremonies he was invited, accepted, attended - and if I remember correctly - was given a standing ovation.

I think that's your answer

 

[blogofmike]

More despised? Krause, as he was the final villain of The Last Dance doc that everyone watched because the world was shut down.

Pocklington is and was hated by Edmonton fans, but they did give him an ovation at the 1984 Oilers 30th anniversary/reunion as @RegDunlop says.

However I have more sympathy for Krause because Pocklington's issues were caused by sheer incompetence in running other businesses, most famously culminating in the 1986 strike by the Gainers meat packers and the Alberta government eventually taking over the business because of unpaid loans (the Alberta taxpayer is out roughly $200 million as of 2015)

Edmonton wasn't headed into a strike/lockout that might kill the season and leave you paying everyone when they're 2 years older.

Edmonton didn't have to deal with staying under a salary cap. Chicago did, and if Jordan stays they're limited to draft picks (99-02 drafts in NBA weren't great, the champs pick last in 98, and Krause wasn't great at finding gems with his late firsts), league minimum free agents, (and after the CBA is renegotiated in January 99 a Mid Level Exception player).

Edmonton didn't need to worry about expiring contracts and free agency. Pippen and Rodman were free agents. They had Bird Rights so they could go over the cap to keep them, however most people thought Rodman was done (essentially true) and since Pippen hated Krause you either overpay or he leaves anyways.

Edmonton didn't need to worry about the age of superstars in their late 20s instead of their mid 30s. Randy Gregg was the only Oiler over 30 in 1988. The majority of players on the 87-88 were still productive NHLers for a decade or so with many contributing to deep playoff runs for the Oilers, Kings, and Rangers through 1994.

Edmonton had decent prospects. Even if Sather drafted poorly after the home runs he hit to start the decade, he managed to finagle younger players like Bill Ranford, Jeff Beukeboom, and Craig Simpson. Not that they'd need much beyond Ranford since the core players were all in their primes.

Still that's not to say I have a large amount of sympathy for Krause. The line in the doc that said Krause deserved more credit than he got, but he wanted more credit than he deserved was very apt.

Even if the Bulls make a run to the 1999 finals, they don't beat the Spurs, and get killed if they make the 2000 finals onward against the Lakers. Meanwhile, the Oilers were still good enough to win the 1990 cup without Gretzky, and would be the cup favorites until Gretzky left sometime in the early 90's.

I would assume keeping Michael means keeping Phil, so there's less to worry about from Los Angeles.

 

[The Panther]

Yeah, I think many Oilers' fans have gotten over Pocklington's past, especially since he hasn't been affiliated with the club for so long. Pocklington was also briefly in jail (somehow avoided a prison sentence), and lost a lot of money, etc., --- sort of paid (literally) some dues. So, Oilers' fans are probably aware of that and are kind of willing to give him a mulligan.

Then, there are those of us for whom -- if we saw Pocklington in a back-alley -- he would end up looking like this, if we had a choice:

 

[Bear of Bad News]

Then, there are those of us for whom -- if we saw Pocklington in a back-alley -- he would end up looking like this, if we had a choice:

Please.

 

[oilexport]

The puck brought Wayne here. The puck was our founding father ! Lol....Money problems and competing teams with big money, did us in.

 

[Crosby2010]

Pocklington is and was hated by Edmonton fans, but they did give him an ovation at the 1984 Oilers 30th anniversary/reunion as @RegDunlop says

I am very surprised by that. I wouldn't be the type that would jeer him because there were some championships there, but I would never cheer or give Pocklington an ovation either. He traded the best player there ever was all because he was broke himself. It was a horrible hockey trade, probably the worst trade in NHL history you could argue. The things Pocklington said about Gretzky to McNall, and even about Walter Gretzky was just things that made him seem to arrogant.

Here is the funny thing, in "Last Dance" and in "King's Ransom" you have two documentaries and you have Krause and Pocklington both painted in a poor light that makes the fans of the team despise them all over again.

 

[sr edler]

So both these fanbases witnessed all-time great dynasties but then petulantly whines and boo people (even dead people, apparently) from 30+ years back because they didn't win even more?

 

[Bear of Bad News]

So both these fanbases witnessed all-time great dynasties but then petulantly whines and boo people from 30+ years back because they didn't win even more?

And claim that they'll put them in the hospital, no less. Good stuff.

 

[Crosby2010]

So both these fanbases witnessed all-time great dynasties but then petulantly whines and boo people from 30+ years back because they didn't win even more?

I think the key is the same architects behind the moves for the championship teams are the ones who let the team disband before they were done winning as well. There wasn't a natural "passing of the torch" type of moment with either the Bulls or Oilers because it happened drastically in the boardrooms instead. That irks fans a lot. Why do Islanders fans still love Bill Torrey and Al Arbour to this day pretty much universally? Because the Islanders went to the maximum and lost fair and square on the ice in 1984 and you could see that they just simply weren't the same dynasty anymore. But if there are major moves and either one or a couple of Bossy, Potvin, Trottier or Smith are shipped out after 1983 and the Islanders don't have the players in place to make a "Drive for Five" then it leaves a bad taste in your mouth.

 

[MadLuke]

In the same topic, the movie Bon cop Bad cop is about a deranged Quebec Fleur de Lys fan going after Harry Buttman daughter and murdering former hockey team owner Grossbut.

 

[Hasbro]

Add Charles Finley to the poll.

 

[LightningStorm]

I would assume keeping Michael means keeping Phil, so there's less to worry about from Los Angeles.

The Lakers were viewed as the team of the future the moment Shaq signed with them in 1996 (replacing Orlando), so I think any good coach would want to go there. Plus the Bulls wouldn't have Pippen by then, though if we are seeking to erase the entire negative impact of Krause, I guess that means his feud with Pippen doesn't occur. On the whole I agree with your post though where the external situations were more difficult for Krause than Pocklington.

I think the key is the same architects behind the moves for the championship teams are the ones who let the team disband before they were done winning as well. There wasn't a natural "passing of the torch" type of moment with either the Bulls or Oilers because it happened drastically in the boardrooms instead. That irks fans a lot. Why do Islanders fans still love Bill Torrey and Al Arbour to this day pretty much universally? Because the Islanders went to the maximum and lost fair and square on the ice in 1984 and you could see that they just simply weren't the same dynasty anymore. But if there are major moves and either one or a couple of Bossy, Potvin, Trottier or Smith are shipped out after 1983 and the Islanders don't have the players in place to make a "Drive for Five" then it leaves a bad taste in your mouth.

Great point about comparing them to the Isles dynasty. Jordan was irked by the fact that they weren't given the right to play it out until some team dethroned them. But going back to the point I made earlier, the Oilers were at least close to their peak in 1988, while the Bulls were on their last legs by 1998.

Semi related, one reason I hold the Bulls first 3 peat in higher esteem than the 2nd is the 2nd one didn't have a great young team they had to hold off in the final 2 seasons. In 1996, they beat the young Shaq/Penny Orlando team as well as the Payton/Kemp Seattle squad in the final 2 rounds to win it, and Bob Costas speculated on how much longer the much older Bulls could hold off those 2 talented young teams (Orlando even beat Chicago in 1995). But both of those cores got broken up BEFORE the Bulls last dance, and the best teams they had to hold off those last 2 seasons were Utah and Indiana, who's best players were the same age as the Bulls core. There wasn't a great young team trying to dethrone them the same way the Bulls had to overcome the Pistons, a team who before that had to overcome the Lakers and Celtics. Similar to when the Isles held off the Oilers in 1983 and then the Oilers dethroned them the next year.

All this gets back to my original point of how the Oilers could've conceivably won multiple cups with Gretzky after 1988 while the Bulls were done after 1998 regardless.

 

[LightningStorm]

One question I'm curious to hear everyone's opinion on is how long does Gretzky stay in Edmonton if not for Pocklington trading him to settle his own business debts? Coffey was already gone by 1987, Kurri left after 1990, and the biggest exodus was Messier, Fuhr, and Anderson all getting traded in 1991. We all know the changing economics of the NHL would've inevitably broken them up in the early 90's, especially with the disadvantage Canadian teams had. But I would be curious to see how long you guys think the Oilers would've tried riding out their dynasty.

 

[jigglysquishy]

In the same topic, the movie Bon cop Bad cop is about a deranged Quebec Fleur de Lys fan going after Harry Buttman daughter and murdering former hockey team owner Grossbut.

The movie is fantastic.

To add, the central plot is about the deranged fan being upset about the Lindros trade.

Lots of really good hockey jokes in the movie.

 

[Robert Gordon Orr]

Yeah, I think many Oilers' fans have gotten over Pocklington's past, especially since he hasn't been affiliated with the club for so long. Pocklington was also briefly in jail (somehow avoided a prison sentence), and lost a lot of money, etc., --- sort of paid (literally) some dues. So, Oilers' fans are probably aware of that and are kind of willing to give him a mulligan.

Then, there are those of us for whom -- if we saw Pocklington in a back-alley -- he would end up looking like this, if we had a choice:
View attachment 803361

I guess this photo is from 1982 after Pocklington had been taken hostage by a gunman at his home. The gunman was wounded by a special task force, and the bullet passed through the kidnapper and struck Pocklington in the left arm. Different trajectory of that bullet, and Pocklington could have been six feet under, and who knows what would have happened with the Oilers.

 

[The Panther]

Different trajectory of that bullet, and Pocklington could have been six feet under, and who knows what would have happened with the Oilers.

We can dream.... (just kidding, people!).

Yeah, that opens up a whole different scenario, doesn't it? Pocklington's wheeling and dealing, and his general entrepreneurial nature was very key to the city of Edmonton and the Oilers' ways in the late-1970s through late-1980s.

 

[Bear of Bad News]

Good lord, dude. Double down, why dontcha?

 

[MVP of West Hollywd]

I don't think the Bulls win any more titles. Rodman is washed starting in 99 and I think to pay Pippen they may have needed to make other salary cap moves with their depth, and only to get the not as good Rockets/Blazers version of him. Alternatively they let Pippen go thinking Kukoc can replace him and keep the rest of the depth in tact, which is still a good team if MJ is MVP level, but probably not good enough. But since the 99 East finalist the Knicks are a weaker one it's plausible the Bulls could make the finals and lose to the Spurs who are a bad matchup.

 

[The Panther]

Speaking of Scottie Pippen, what's happened with him lately? Seems like he's become a bit of a nutter.

 

[Hasbro]

I don't think the Bulls win any more titles. Rodman is washed starting in 99

And even bigger, I think they were just sick of his bullshit.

 

[jigglysquishy]

While I disagree with blowing the team up, I can at least understand why it happened in 1998. The team was old and the looming labour dispute made rash moves necessary.

For the 1998-99 season, Jordan would have been 36, Pippin 33, Rodman 37. As it was, Rodman was finished as a regular NBA player in 1998-99 and only played 21 regular season games in 1997-98.

Jordan was the 21st oldest starter in the league in 1997-98.

 

[Nerowoy nora tolad]

Tbh I dont understand the bulls example well enough to comment, but I really dont get the criticism for pocklington.

When it came to the gretzky trade, gretzky wanted to go (either that or hes been willing to maintain the pretense for a long time), the cash it brought back cant have been a negative for the oilers survival, and having the most expensive player on earth would have made the fire sale happen even earlier

As it was, the fire sale started in 87? With coffey, and the complete purge of expensive vets happened summer 91. That only leaves 3 seasons of contention assuming gretzky is totally okay with acting against his own financial interests by never expecting a salary increase, the oilers budget can handle the extra million, and the oilers are just so overpoweringly good that the peak flames and penguins cant handle them