GDT: #38: Wings @ Shark Tank, Jan 7th, *Updated Post Game Stats*

[Fistfullofbeer]

If you push for the playoffs, you at least keep your fans in the rink. If they sell, they don't and that's a lot of money to lose. You really don't know whether or not the playoff revenue would make up any losses during the season and if it's as bad as you think it is, you lose even more money not doing it.

And no, selling is not a sure bet at all. Why do you constantly ignore the fact that selling kills your revenue stream during the season. If they're losing money now, they're losing a lot more money selling. You get no guarantees by selling that you're going to get back into it. While it is their best shot to get a player that they can build around, it doesn't guarantee it at all and it is no sure bet.

You really need to stop misrepresenting what your argument is because you make it sound a lot more rosy than what it would really be. Selling is a hell of a lot more difficult of a decision than you're making it out to be because it carries with it some real consequences in this market. We are not Edmonton. We are not Toronto. The fans will not continue to come here icing teams of that quality to get those kinds of picks. And they will lose fans by the thousands doing it. If they're willing to eat those losses, that's fine. But if they're running their business with the intent to make money or lose as little of it as possible, your plan is God awful for them. Until they can renegotiate their TV deal, I sincerely doubt that the sell plan is a realistic one.



If you decide to sell, Ward, Wingels, and Braun are guys without movement clauses so far as we know that can be moved freely that would make sense if you're going to tank without a pick. Making this team worse now would be a stupid decision. They wouldn't get better now as a team. There's no reason why you couldn't sell after the season if it ends poorly. As long as the team doesn't give up on the likes of Hertl, Goldobin, and Roy, they don't really lose anything that one may be deemed as a possible core piece in the future in terms of talent. Mueller is a middle pairing d-man at best, imo. Meier is a 2nd liner at best, imo. Those can be made available although it's doubtful that Meier is made available given they just picked him at 9. They have assets beyond that to move to make the team better if they want. They have a wealth of 3rd line level players between Wingels, Nieto, Karlsson, Donskoi, and Ward that are free to be moved to get better.

Sharks still have their 2nd next year to move but that should be held onto at this point. And if nothing is available to get better, don't do anything. Selling now is pointless because it can be done in the off-season. There is nobody of note with an expiring contract. Torres, Brown, Smith, and Stalock all have no value. Everyone else has another year or is restricted. There is nothing gained short term by selling now. If there's a trade to make the team better, obviously do it but trading some player for picks now would be unbelievably ridiculous.

Pretty much this. But also, DW is in a position where he cannot tank mid-season. He HAS TO make the playoffs to keep his job. If we don't make the playoffs, and he is still here and decides to rebuild, he moves players then. Also, we have absolutely no UFA's to move this year. None with any value anyway. If we rebuild, it will be to move signed players which can be done in the off-season.

 

[Bleedred]

I don't think it's a locker room issue. Deep down they just don't believe they have the horses to get it done (and who can blame them? why would they? We've had much better teams and fallen short). They don't think they can win, so they're not going to. Teams like Chicago, have that belief to keep pushing because they know they are good teams and they know eventually things will turn around for the better when they go against them. Us, not so much.

I just think this core has done all they can together, I think this team could use some ''Culture change'' type trades. We don't see many of these types of trades happen around the league anymore. I'd actually rather see some power for power type trades than power for picks/prospects type stuff, but I'm not sure if that's possible. You just don't see it anymore.

 

[Bleedred]

If things continue to go down the crapper though, I think we all might actually see a trade to get a first rounder this year.

I think Marleau or Thornton does bring back a first rounder of some point at this time, there's just the whole waiving of the NMC thing. But Marleau supposedly already said he was open to it a few months ago.

I don't think either of them would have a problem waiving if they were UFA after this season. The fact that they each have a year left makes things a little trickier.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

If things continue to go down the crapper though, I think we all might actually see a trade to get a first rounder this year.

I think Marleau or Thornton does bring back a first rounder of some point at this time, there's just the whole waiving of the NMC thing. But Marleau supposedly already said he was open to it a few months ago.

I don't think either of them would have a problem waiving if they were UFA after this season. The fact that they each have a year left makes things a little trickier.

If they can bring back a 1st rounder now, they can bring back a 1st rounder in the off-season. And Marleau didn't say he was open to it.

 

[Fistfullofbeer]

If things continue to go down the crapper though, I think we all might actually see a trade to get a first rounder this year.

I think Marleau or Thornton does bring back a first rounder of some point at this time, there's just the whole waiving of the NMC thing. But Marleau supposedly already said he was open to it a few months ago.

I don't think either of them would have a problem waiving if they were UFA after this season. The fact that they each have a year left makes things a little trickier.

If either of those two are getting a late 1st rounder + back (which they should), and are ready to waive, I don't see why not move them (assuming we are not in playoff contention). Those two probably will fetch the same kind of value at the TDL next season as I don't anticipate their level of play to fall off.

 

[TomasHertlsRooster]

Honestly I'm more worried that we make the playoffs at this point. DW may stay if we make the playoffs. If we miss the playoffs without a 1st round pick to show for DW is absolutely gone.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

Honestly I'm more worried that we make the playoffs at this point. DW may stay if we make the playoffs. If we miss the playoffs without a 1st round pick to show for DW is absolutely gone.

One would hope. People here still believe it was the correct move to trade a 1st for a goalie. I don't care if he's the future great starter. It's poor value and a poor risk.

 

[CrypTic]

If things continue to go down the crapper though, I think we all might actually see a trade to get a first rounder this year.

I think Marleau or Thornton does bring back a first rounder of some point at this time, there's just the whole waiving of the NMC thing. But Marleau supposedly already said he was open to it a few months ago.

I don't think either of them would have a problem waiving if they were UFA after this season. The fact that they each have a year left makes things a little trickier.

I don't think the draft is supposed to be that deep in the first round this season so I don't know that we need to get a first unless we can get an early one. Marleau and Thornton having a year left makes it trickier cap wise for the teams that might want them too. I think that we might get a better return if we wait until they are pure rentals. That depends on how they play the rest of this season and next season, though.

 

[magic school bus]

I just think this core has done all they can together, I think this team could use some ''Culture change'' type trades. We don't see many of these types of trades happen around the league anymore. I'd actually rather see some power for power type trades than power for picks/prospects type stuff, but I'm not sure if that's possible. You just don't see it anymore.

Sure, but i really don't want to do anything big with Wilson at the helm.

 

[DystopianTierney]

Yeah, forgot that. Buffalo saw their home team win 34% of their games last year and got Jack Eichel. Our fans are seeing us win 29% of their games and we do not have our 1st round pick.

Stop. You're making it worse!

 

[Anomie2029]

I want DW gone and I want John Tortora gone.

 

[Bleedred]

If they can bring back a 1st rounder now, they can bring back a 1st rounder in the off-season. And Marleau didn't say he was open to it.

Well then they would have to be moved at or before the draft, or there still would be no 1st round pick for this draft year.

As far as being open to it, he never admitted he was. The whole thing might have all been BS, but I don't really think he wouldn't waive, or at least not eventually. I'd understand these guys not wanting to waive right now, since they have a year left after this and probably don't wanna be separated from their families. Whereas if this was their last year, they'd only be away from their families for a matter of 3-3.5 months at the very max.

If either of those two are getting a late 1st rounder + back (which they should), and are ready to waive, I don't see why not move them (assuming we are not in playoff contention). Those two probably will fetch the same kind of value at the TDL next season as I don't anticipate their level of play to fall off.

They probably would get that next season as well, assuming their play doesn't completely grenade or get injured somehow.

But there would still be no first rounder this year if that were to happen. I think there's a very outside chance that Doug goes all Gillis and sells a couple guys at the deadline that no one saw coming. It didn't help Gillis keep his job that year though.

 

[hohosaregood]

This team's breaking my heart

 

[Led Zappa]

This team's breaking my heart

Now this I can agree with.

 

[Lateralis]

I've been just watching silently and not posting. I feel that the sharks have so much potential to be better this year and be a dark horse playoff team. But whatever they do, I believe they need to get rid of Marleau and get, as people said some young fire power in return. As also seen many times posted before they really need another shut down D man. Its obviously much more difficult to get the D guys, but I think trading someone or a package young players like hertl, neito, smith and even melker, plus some picks would be well worth it.

I'm also for a coaching Change. I realize this sounds drastic, buy they are stuck in this purgatory and I think DeBoer just is compounding the problem.

This my come of as a rant but I feel it's a sane decision that would pay dividends in the end. A lot of inaction has cost the Sharks over the years and at this pace we are looking at years of missed playoffs because of fear of the unknown about making some legit changes.

Just tired of watching 'tweaking'. Man up and make some tough but necessary moves.

 

[Bleedred]

One would hope. People here still believe it was the correct move to trade a 1st for a goalie. I don't care if he's the future great starter. It's poor value and a poor risk.

I was never behind trading a first for Jones. I also don't know what the hell the Buffalo GM was thinking in trading a first for Lehner. Now Lehner has been out all year so far and Buffalo's goaltenders have played right around the same level that Lehner has averaged over his career. I think you have to be a pretty elite goaltender or with potential to be an elite goaltender to get a 1st, or at least have a larger sample size of games started than Jones.

I don't see elite potential in Jones, but I see potential to be a good starter. Instead of being eased into the starting job, he's been thrown right into it this season, which isn't his fault. I was one of the ones that argued that before this season, Jones hadn't really proved to be a significantly better NHL goaltender than Stalock yet, even though I acknowledged he definitely had a much higher ceiling and was 3 years younger, as well as having a more impressive AHL resume from what I recall. But both had identically great seasons in 13-14, then both had below average seasons in 14-15.

I don't think the draft is supposed to be that deep in the first round this season so I don't know that we need to get a first unless we can get an early one. Marleau and Thornton having a year left makes it trickier cap wise for the teams that might want them too. I think that we might get a better return if we wait until they are pure rentals. That depends on how they play the rest of this season and next season, though.

The fact that they aren't rentals, might make them less desirable, where only a few teams would be willing to part a 1st for. I'm not up to date on cap numbers anymore, but either of them seem like they would be right up the Rangers alley if Sather was still there.

Sure, but i really don't want to do anything big with Wilson at the helm.

I don't anymore at this point either.

The ship sailed on that type of idea I had in mind. The last boat on that idea probably left for good after the 2014 offseason. People have been saying for years ''That Sharks team really needs a makeover and to trade away the core'' even as early as 2010 or 2011, when the team went to back to back conference finals. I always thought it was premature to be saying that at that time, but it certainly should have been seriously considered after the 2014 playoffs.

 

[Bleedred]

This team's breaking my heart

Break out more of those boxes of Ho Ho's, you're gonna need them for comfort!.

I was enjoying the mini break and reset between Saturday and tonight, this game wasn't exactly what I had in mind though.

 

[Grave]

Honestly I think it'd be Vlasic. I think that Boston would take Vlasic for that pick but they would not take anything else.

If the sharks sell all they need that pick back. Imagine selling everyone and getting 4 1st round picks and Boston getting Matthews.

 

[CrypTic]

The fact that they aren't rentals, might make them less desirable, where only a few teams would be willing to part a 1st for. I'm not up to date on cap numbers anymore, but either of them seem like they would be right up the Rangers alley if Sather was still there.

That's what I was thinking. At the very least, trading them before the end of next season could significantly limit the number of teams that could afford them next season on top of the limited number of teams that they might agree to be traded to if they waived their NMCs. It seems like the list of teams they'd agree to be traded to might be short enough in any event. No reason to make it shorter bc of cap problems. OTOH, if they'd agree and we could get a good return, I wouldn't be opposed to trading them this offseason.

 

[Alwalys]

all i got is, yet again this was a ridiculously long layoff. **** this schedule. let's see how the team does playing some regular hockey.

as for what to do if moves were to be made, it's a tough one. the way you build a team via trade is to take underperforming assets and make them into performing assets.

at this point most of you are talking about moving our performing assets. that moves us into nonsensical GM moves territory, so the outcome is basically a crapshoot.

 

[Bleedred]

I've been just watching silently and not posting. I feel that the sharks have so much potential to be better this year and be a dark horse playoff team. But whatever they do, I believe they need to get rid of Marleau and get, as people said some young fire power in return. As also seen many times posted before they really need another shut down D man. Its obviously much more difficult to get the D guys, but I think trading someone or a package young players like hertl, neito, smith and even melker, plus some picks would be well worth it.

I'm also for a coaching Change. I realize this sounds drastic, buy they are stuck in this purgatory and I think DeBoer just is compounding the problem.

This my come of as a rant but I feel it's a sane decision that would pay dividends in the end. A lot of inaction has cost the Sharks over the years and at this pace we are looking at years of missed playoffs because of fear of the unknown about making some legit changes.

Just tired of watching 'tweaking'. Man up and make some tough but necessary moves.

I'm not even sure if Doug would be allowed to make another coaching change here. That might do it for him right off the bat, if he were to make a coaching change.

I'm still puzzled at why he would hire a guy like DeBoer if his job was supposedly on the line. And it's not just DeBoer, but some of the other candidates that we knew about too. Oates? Carlyle? Carlyle will probably get another NHL head coaching job the day after Ronny Wilson gets hired for his next NHL head coaching gig, i.e. never. Oates can continue his personal consultant work on the side for players around the league, I would only want him coaching a rival.

And if DeBoer is sacked, that's 3 more years that he's on Sharks payroll. He isn't getting another NHL head coaching job after this, if he bombs in San Jose. I'm quite surprised he got this job. That would be 6 seasons as a head coach in the league and 1 playoff berth + 2 seasons in which he was fired midseason while teams were well on the course to miss the playoffs and out of a spot.

As far as Marleau goes, if he's traded this year, you have to accept that it probably won't make this team better in the now. Same thing goes for Thornton.

I'm not against trading these guys, but you have to consider that trading them this year is likely not gonna get this team any closer to a playoff spot or a big run. They've both seen better days for sure, but they're also both still pretty good to great players right now, just not exactly elite anymore.

 

[magic school bus]

One would hope. People here still believe it was the correct move to trade a 1st for a goalie. I don't care if he's the future great starter. It's poor value and a poor risk.

Not sure what's worse: trading a 1st for a goalie or drafting a defensive defenseman in the 1st round.

 

[TomasHertlsRooster]

Not sure what's worse: trading a 1st for a goalie or drafting a defensive defenseman in the 1st round.

Option C: Drafting a grinder with 2nd line potential at best who is heavily dependent on elite linemates in the top-10.
Option D: Signing Peter DeBoer

 

[Bleedred]

Option C: Drafting a grinder with 2nd line potential at best who is heavily dependent on elite linemates in the top-10.
Option D: Signing Peter DeBoer

Dumbeor loves his grinders, so both those options should coincide.

That's the first time I ever called him that on the Sharks board, took me like 7+ months past his hiring!

Actually I'm wrong, I called him that 7 times already before this, all before the season started. Last time was on the day he was hired.

 

[hohosaregood]

Dumbeor loves his grinders, so both those options should coincide.

That's the first time I ever called him that on the Sharks board, took me like 7+ months past his hiring!

Actually I'm wrong, I called him that 7 times already before this, all before the season started. Last time was on the day he was hired.

And Doug Wilson loves his grinders too. It's really a match made in heaven.