30 years of Bettman

joelef

Registered User
Nov 22, 2011
1,816
676

No Fun Shogun

34-38-61-10-13-15
May 1, 2011
56,383
13,242
Illinois
I don’t think Bettman is particularly good or bad. Owners went along for anything perceived bad for us, so I hardly expect other commissioner(s) to have radically gone down different paths. But his biggest legacy, a significant increase in league revenue, merely looks like being the smallest benefactor of a rising tide that increased the revenues of the other big three leagues even more.
 

joelef

Registered User
Nov 22, 2011
1,816
676
I don’t think Bettman is particularly good or bad. Owners went along for anything perceived bad for us, so I hardly expect other commissioner(s) to have radically gone down different paths. But his biggest legacy, a significant increase in league revenue, merely looks like being the smallest benefactor of a rising tide that increased the revenues of the other big three leagues even more.
The fact that a Gretzky like once in a generation player is almost completely unknown outside of diehards fan should tell you about his legacy
 

Tawnos

A guy with a bass
Sep 10, 2004
29,060
10,750
Charlotte, NC
The fact that a Gretzky like once in a generation player is almost completely unknown outside of diehards fan should tell you about his legacy

I wonder about this sometimes. How well was Gretzky truly known outside of hockey fans in the US in the 80s before he went to LA? And how much of how well he was known was because national advertisers were riding the coattails of the 1980 Olympics, which is a type of event that will never happen again?

Plus, some combination of the sports section of the newspaper and SportsCenter were the primary way to get sports news during the 80s. It's much easier today to just get the news and highlights for the sport you follow.

So I think there are a combination of factors at work here. I'm not saying the NHL does a good job marketing its stars. Far from it, but I don't think better marketing efforts from the league gets McDavid all the way to where Gretzky was.

Edit: I think this is partially reflective of a wider societal thing. All entertainment industries are more fragmented than they were even 10 years ago. Movies, TV, music, sports. It's everything. Broadly shared cultural experiences are few and far between.
 
Last edited:

tornadowarning33

Registered User
Feb 15, 2018
163
127

I believe McIndoe had the above queued up as a response to this ESPN piece. Sean has a great sense of humor that translated well to his writing style, especially before he "went pro", but he doesn't have any nuance when it comes to writing about the business side of hockey. He's Canadian so he hates Bettman by default and never turns down the chance to touch himself publicly over that hate.
 

edog37

Registered User
Jan 21, 2007
6,100
1,646
Pittsburgh
Bettman is the best thing to ever happen to the NHL. People say that he ruined hockey don't understand how fundamentally bad the league was run in the decades preceding him. It was a complete old boys' network even far worse than now. Hardly any exposure in the US & competitive imbalance that would be unheard of in today's pro sporting scene. Consider at one point the Montreal Canadiens had exclusive rights to players within a 50-mile radius of Montreal. That is how they were able acquire & maintain NHL legends such as Béliveau, the Richard brothers, Lafleur, etc. To call it backwater would be giving it credit. You actually had a situation whereby James Norris not only owned the Red Wings but had significant financial stakes in the Black Hawks & Rangers simultaneously. It resisted expanding beyond 6 teams for decades & had to be drug kicking & screaming into an expansion to head off an upstart Western Hockey League. Those were not the golden days of hockey. After Bettman came on board, yes, there were labor issues. Name one league out there that didn't have those. Yes, there were questionable team footprint moves, but again, every league struggles with that. The point is the league went into areas it didn't go before & created new fans. It created a deeper talent pool. It is now on US TV. It has a sizeable footprint across North America. Sure, the game can be improved, but it is light years ahead of where it used to be.
 

Dirty Old Man

So funny I forgot to laugh
Sponsor
Jan 29, 2008
8,005
6,166
Ostrich City
However, the author did leave this in - which should be read and re-read by a lot of people here:

"While he arrived too late to save teams like the Nordiques and Jets, he’s done an admirable job of keeping struggling teams in place over the years, weathering crises that threatened markets like Pittsburgh, Edmonton, Ottawa and Buffalo. Expansion to Las Vegas has been an unqualified success, and Seattle is headed that way. "

Plus there was a link to "the struggles in Arizona" which referred to the infamous Katie Strang hatchet job; but which is now almost 2 years old and will soon seem a distant mirage memory.
 

KevFu

Registered User
May 22, 2009
9,236
3,463
Phoenix from Rochester via New Orleans
The fact that a Gretzky like once in a generation player is almost completely unknown outside of diehards fan should tell you about his legacy

This is a pretty insane take to me. I think Gretzky being a hockey player is ubiquitous for Americans over the age of like 35.

People who've never watched hockey, know that he's the famous hockey player. You ask random people on the street who Gretzky is, and hockey player will be the top answer. Or ask them to name any hockey player, and Gretzky will be number one answer...

(Ok, I just looked it up, because Family Feud does exact that: ask 100 Americans a question! "Past or Present, Name an All-Star Hockey player" was a question on the show. Top answer: Gretzky with 51 responses)
 

Reaser

Registered User
May 19, 2021
984
1,848
This is a pretty insane take to me. I think Gretzky being a hockey player is ubiquitous for Americans over the age of like 35.

People who've never watched hockey, know that he's the famous hockey player. You ask random people on the street who Gretzky is, and hockey player will be the top answer. Or ask them to name any hockey player, and Gretzky will be number one answer...

(Ok, I just looked it up, because Family Feud does exact that: ask 100 Americans a question! "Past or Present, Name an All-Star Hockey player" was a question on the show. Top answer: Gretzky with 51 responses)

He said "Gretzky like player", not Gretzky himself. Pretty sure he was referencing McDavid and how he isn't particularly well known in the U.S.
 

Yukon Joe

Registered User
Aug 3, 2011
6,297
4,354
YWG -> YXY -> YEG
It's funny I can remember when he was brought in. He was supposed to be a breath of fresh air, having been brought in from the NBA.

30 years later he's seen as one of the most conservative and old-school voices in hockey.

I guess that's what happens to us all as we age.
 

voyageur

Hockey fanatic
Jul 10, 2011
9,467
8,157
Bettman is the best thing to ever happen to the NHL. People say that he ruined hockey don't understand how fundamentally bad the league was run in the decades preceding him. It was a complete old boys' network even far worse than now. Hardly any exposure in the US & competitive imbalance that would be unheard of in today's pro sporting scene. Consider at one point the Montreal Canadiens had exclusive rights to players within a 50-mile radius of Montreal. That is how they were able acquire & maintain NHL legends such as Béliveau, the Richard brothers, Lafleur, etc. To call it backwater would be giving it credit. You actually had a situation whereby James Norris not only owned the Red Wings but had significant financial stakes in the Black Hawks & Rangers simultaneously. It resisted expanding beyond 6 teams for decades & had to be drug kicking & screaming into an expansion to head off an upstart Western Hockey League. Those were not the golden days of hockey. After Bettman came on board, yes, there were labor issues. Name one league out there that didn't have those. Yes, there were questionable team footprint moves, but again, every league struggles with that. The point is the league went into areas it didn't go before & created new fans. It created a deeper talent pool. It is now on US TV. It has a sizeable footprint across North America. Sure, the game can be improved, but it is light years ahead of where it used to be.
I don't think you are making a fair assessment here. First for all the people who criticize the Quebec rule which allowed the Canadiens to prosper in the 50 and 60s don't ever talk about Bobby Orr being signed as an underaged player, by virtue of the Bruins agreeing to stucco his parents house. Seems like a lot of teams would have liked to have drafted a player the calibre of Orr but that wasn't possible. For all the success the Canadiens had pre expansion no team has won more Stanley Cups post expansion, and it was in the days when star Quebec players were being drafted throughout the league. Fault GMs who didn't know the value of a 1st round pick in those days.

As for what Gary Bettman accomplished, it's hard to say when you don't know how much owners who hired him had pull on the league's makeup.

Certainly the Anaheim expansion, which was done without any process, was at the behest of Bruce Mc Nall, who later became famous for conspiracy and fraud. And while that process was done before Gary actually became commissioner, Gary had a working relationship with Michael Eisner, from Disney, as the NBA vice president. So I think that was part of the process, behind the scenes. Bringing Disney into the league was a big deal at the time. 3 years later, 2 more markets closer to L.A are in the league too. As a Winnipeg fan, I sure would have liked to remain in the Norris in the 80s, because that caused a lot of financial trouble in travel for our ownership, but somebody in the league thought moving a franchise from Colorado to New Jersey, giving metropolitan New York 3 out of 21 markets, was a good idea.

As commissioner he grew the game in the U.S., there is no argument anywhere. It didn't hurt his cause when New York and New Jersey won Stanley Cups in his 2nd and 3rd year. Great for the folks at ESPN, and his backyard.

The landscape of the NHL changed significantly when the league moved to have all salaries in US dollars. A weak Canadian economy made for some serious franchise difficulties, which led to two relocations. At the same time arenas were being built all across the U.S with the federal infrastructure money available. No such option was available North of the border.

I'll give him credit for helping to save the Alberta franchises. I think he knew how important they were to the league. And in both cases ownership wasn't in question.

He had some serious blunders, like the Isles being sold to John Spano.

I don't think expansion was particularly well thought out.

The division were atrocious.

How someone thought having Minnesota and Vancouver, or Dallas and Los Angeles in the same divisions was a good idea is beyond me. The South division in the East didn't have any traction either.

As a traditionalist, I really miss the integrity of the game. It was entertaining and affordable before Bettman. It didn't just operate in the sphere of the highest bidding cable company either, and regional blackouts. It wasn't about maximizing revenues, but entertainment. I preferred the white boards to the digital ads, that's for sure. The sound of the organ. Rinks with nuances. Old time hockey.

The draft lottery saved the Penguins, just like being bad enough to get Mario, across two different eras. I just recently read that in the 80s there was an offer to move the Pens to Hamilton, where Harold Ballard's son would be part owner, but that deal fell through on account of Hamilton's city council. Certainly before Bettman American franchises were more consistently on the verge of bankruptcy or relocation.

I don't particularly like the lottery, because it seems to favour certain franchise more than others...call it luck or a master plan if you want.

I think the Salary Cap saved the league and not just small market Canada, but franchises like Carolina or Nashville that couldn't compete with the Rangers, Red Wings, and whichever other owners were willing to spend their fortunes on players.

I don't have any issue with the league's growth. Arizona is the one market that has given the NHL nightmares, but after 27 years they've also built up an alumni, and some history, mostly negative. I'm sure given the choice of most players today, Phoenix would be more favourable than my home market of Winnipeg, to live in, for players.

Reffing in the NHL is probably my biggest pet peeve. It's brutal, and unintelligible. DoPs is a joke, and the NHL should be ashamed of themselves from distancing from helping players who went through the tough guy phase, which created a lot of entertainment, but also caused significant brain damage in many of its participants.

Gary has succeeded in bringing the U.S into the NHL on a significant basis. He has to respect Canada because the bulk of the league's revenues still come from there, on a comparative basis, but I don't think he is great for the game. I'd like to see a guy like Brian Burke, who has been around hockey just as long, but is a hockey guy in a true sense, represent the league. I think he'd have a better working relation with Canadian fans, having worked in Canadian markets.

He's not a New York guy trying to make New York the epicentre of hockey.
 

KevFu

Registered User
May 22, 2009
9,236
3,463
Phoenix from Rochester via New Orleans
I don't think you are making a fair assessment here.

As for what Gary Bettman accomplished, it's hard to say when you don't know how much owners who hired him had pull on the league's makeup.

I don't think expansion was particularly well thought out.

The division were atrocious.

How someone thought having Minnesota and Vancouver, or Dallas and Los Angeles in the same divisions was a good idea is beyond me. The South division in the East didn't have any traction either.

As a traditionalist, I really miss the integrity of the game. It was entertaining and affordable before Bettman. It didn't just operate in the sphere of the highest bidding cable company either, and regional blackouts. It wasn't about maximizing revenues, but entertainment. I preferred the white boards to the digital ads, that's for sure. The sound of the organ. Rinks with nuances. Old time hockey.

I think the NHL realized that they needed to grow into the big money entertainment business, maximizing revenues; and that's why they hired Bettman from the NBA.

I totally agree with you on divisions and how the "expansion not well thought out" part. GROWING the league into the American South was necessary. But the sudden nature of it alienated some northern fans, and the divisions were just terrible.

(I was surprised to realize the NHL did six divisions before the NBA, and basketball copied the NHL six years later!). The division changes were REALLY DUMB because the NHL was ADDING TWO NEW REGIONS into the league at this time. The American Southwest had the LA Kings. Then you add San Jose, Anaheim, Phoenix, Colorado and Dallas. The Southeast had no one and then they get Tampa, Florida, Carolina, Nashville, Atlanta. WHY ON EARTH WOULD YOU PUT FOUR OF THOSE TEAMS INTO EACH DIVISION?

The whole point of divisions is TV start times (to maximize revenues). The should have blended old and new, north and south.

They should have gone with:
Adams: BOS, MON, BUF, OTT, CAR, TOR, ATL (3 new markets)
Patrick: NYR, NYI, NJD, PHI, PIT, WAS, TB, FLA (2 new markets)
Norris: CHI, STL, DAL, MIN, NASH, DET, CBJ (4 new markets)
Smythe: VAN, CAL, EDM, LA, ANA, SJ, ARZ, COL (4 new markets)

And then when the 'Peg returned, they swap with DET and the rest of expansion/realignment plays out exactly like it did with VGK/SEA.
 

Salsero1

Registered User
Nov 10, 2022
141
345
I think the NHL realized that they needed to grow into the big money entertainment business, maximizing revenues; and that's why they hired Bettman from the NBA.

I totally agree with you on divisions and how the "expansion not well thought out" part. GROWING the league into the American South was necessary. But the sudden nature of it alienated some northern fans, and the divisions were just terrible.

(I was surprised to realize the NHL did six divisions before the NBA, and basketball copied the NHL six years later!). The division changes were REALLY DUMB because the NHL was ADDING TWO NEW REGIONS into the league at this time. The American Southwest had the LA Kings. Then you add San Jose, Anaheim, Phoenix, Colorado and Dallas. The Southeast had no one and then they get Tampa, Florida, Carolina, Nashville, Atlanta. WHY ON EARTH WOULD YOU PUT FOUR OF THOSE TEAMS INTO EACH DIVISION?

The whole point of divisions is TV start times (to maximize revenues). The should have blended old and new, north and south.

They should have gone with:
Adams: BOS, MON, BUF, OTT, CAR, TOR, ATL (3 new markets)
Patrick: NYR, NYI, NJD, PHI, PIT, WAS, TB, FLA (2 new markets)
Norris: CHI, STL, DAL, MIN, NASH, DET, CBJ (4 new markets)
Smythe: VAN, CAL, EDM, LA, ANA, SJ, ARZ, COL (4 new markets)

And then when the 'Peg returned, they swap with DET and the rest of expansion/realignment plays out exactly like it did with VGK/SEA.

I'm a Canes STM and I find it offensive that the NHL reaching out to and including the American south and the increased involvement of the people here as consumers and players is somehow harmful to or ruining the game of hockey. I really don't understand why it's such an issue, I don't follow any other sports but do these types of attitudes exist in NFL/NBA/MLB?
 

KevFu

Registered User
May 22, 2009
9,236
3,463
Phoenix from Rochester via New Orleans
I'm a Canes STM and I find it offensive that the NHL reaching out to and including the American south and the increased involvement of the people here as consumers and players is somehow harmful to or ruining the game of hockey. I really don't understand why it's such an issue, I don't follow any other sports but do these types of attitudes exist in NFL/NBA/MLB?

Were you saying what I said was offensive to the American South? I was meaning that hockey did a great disservice to the American South and West with the terrible alignment that did not help those markets grow their fan bases.

Say it's 1991, and you're are an NHL fan in the Raleigh area, and you find out that "in 2001, Raleigh WILL have an NHL team."

You'd be stoked because your city is joining the TWENTY ONE teams of the NHL.

You're going to get 82 games against the Bruins, Canadiens, Nordiques, Sabres, Whalers, Rangers, Islanders, Devils, Flyers, Penguins, Capitals, Blues, Blackhawks, Red Wings, North Stars, Maple Leafs, Kings, Oilers, Canucks and Jets!

But when your 2000-01 Carolina Hurricanes schedule came out, you're NOT playing 82 games against those 21 teams, Carolina only got 48.

The other 34 games... against 12 new franchises or brands with an average of 4.8 years of history behind them.

How does that make those cities feel like part of the league? What did that do ticket sales? It limited the revenue of those teams, and the growth of those fan bases.

It wasn't fair to those markets, those fans. The Southeast and Pacific divisions were more like an "annex" than treated as part of the league.
 

Salsero1

Registered User
Nov 10, 2022
141
345
Were you saying what I said was offensive to the American South? I was meaning that hockey did a great disservice to the American South and West with the terrible alignment that did not help those markets grow their fan bases.

Say it's 1991, and you're are an NHL fan in the Raleigh area, and you find out that "in 2001, Raleigh WILL have an NHL team."

You'd be stoked because your city is joining the TWENTY ONE teams of the NHL.

You're going to get 82 games against the Bruins, Canadiens, Nordiques, Sabres, Whalers, Rangers, Islanders, Devils, Flyers, Penguins, Capitals, Blues, Blackhawks, Red Wings, North Stars, Maple Leafs, Kings, Oilers, Canucks and Jets!

But when your 2000-01 Carolina Hurricanes schedule came out, you're NOT playing 82 games against those 21 teams, Carolina only got 48.

The other 34 games... against 12 new franchises or brands with an average of 4.8 years of history behind them.

How does that make those cities feel like part of the league? What did that do ticket sales? It limited the revenue of those teams, and the growth of those fan bases.

It wasn't fair to those markets, those fans. The Southeast and Pacific divisions were more like an "annex" than treated as part of the league.

No, I was referring to the OP you were quoting and the premise that simply including us in the league was alienating northern fans,
 

KevFu

Registered User
May 22, 2009
9,236
3,463
Phoenix from Rochester via New Orleans
No, I was referring to the OP you were quoting and the premise that simply including us in the league was alienating northern fans,

Ah, okay. Got ya.

I think Northern fans were alienated because of seeing the expansion to the south and the relocation of teams from Winnipeg, Minnesota, Quebec and Hartford to southern places like Phoenix, Dallas, Carolina (and Colorado, which isn't really "South" but certainly is South of Quebec).

Southern expansion was absolutely necessary, but it was the sudden rapid change that had people up in arms. It was messy. Fans assume there's some absolute ruler dictating everything (Bettman) when there's a billion variables at play, and circumstances playing out.

If the NHL had 32 teams, looking almost identical today, but everything played out differently so there wasn't this "Canadian/Northern flight to the American South" would everyone be so outraged at Bettman/the NHL's radical Sun Belt agenda?

Say...
- Bruce Firestone bought the Nordiques in 1991 and moved them to Ottawa, and cancels his expansion bid.
- Minnesota and Winnipeg built new arenas BEFORE their teams could move.
- no change to history of San Jose, Tampa, Anaheim, Florida, Hartford/Carolina, Columbus, and Nashville...

That's only 25 teams in 1996 (OTT is old QUE), so when the NHL asked for more expansion bids in 1997...
- No Minnesota bid.
- Phoenix didn't have an arena deal done until 2001, so they don't apply.
- Colorado (Comsat) and Dallas (Hicks) don't have QUE/DAL to buy, so they apply and win.
- Nashville, Atlanta and Columbus still apply, and win.

And when ASG doesn't want the Thrashers, they're sold to Phoenix, where they play at a lackluster venue while working on a Tempe arena deal. The NHL adds Vegas and Seattle for 32 teams.

And here we are in the same exact place, only Minnesota's named the North Stars and Dallas is named something else, but the only city to lose their team to the American South is... Hartford.

Would people be as bitter at Bettman then? I don't know.
 

Nona Di Giuseppe

Registered User
Jul 14, 2009
4,919
2,447
Coquitlam
The fact that a Gretzky like once in a generation player is almost completely unknown outside of diehards fan should tell you about his legacy

Uhhhhh..... what are you talking about? When Gretzky played, he was a frickin' cartoon character even.

Also, I wouldn't expect someone that isn't a big fan to know who has been retired longer than a lot of new fans have been alive.
 

Nona Di Giuseppe

Registered User
Jul 14, 2009
4,919
2,447
Coquitlam
Looking at all the NHL commissioners, Bettman has been the best, by a long shot.

People that bitch and complain about him are spoiled, because it could be a hellava lot worse.
 

Yukon Joe

Registered User
Aug 3, 2011
6,297
4,354
YWG -> YXY -> YEG
Looking at all the NHL commissioners, Bettman has been the best, by a long shot.

I don't know if you understand how comical this statement is.

Bettman absolutely is the best NHL Commissioner the NHL has ever had.

He's also absolutely the worst Commissioner the NHL has ever had.

That's because the position of Commissioner was created by Gary Bettman. Before that the NHL had a President.


Not meant as a slam @Benjamin Nushmutt this is all ancient history at this point. Just thought it was funny. If you want to talk about who was the best/worst President/Commissioner... I mean Clarence Campbell might be my vote for the best. Worst? I dunno...
 

rojac

HFBoards Sponsor
Sponsor
Apr 5, 2007
13,047
2,930
Waterloo, ON
I don't know if you understand how comical this statement is.

Bettman absolutely is the best NHL Commissioner the NHL has ever had.

He's also absolutely the worst Commissioner the NHL has ever had.

That's because the position of Commissioner was created by Gary Bettman. Before that the NHL had a President.


Not meant as a slam @Benjamin Nushmutt this is all ancient history at this point. Just thought it was funny. If you want to talk about who was the best/worst President/Commissioner... I mean Clarence Campbell might be my vote for the best. Worst? I dunno...
My impression is that the NHL BOG wanted to switch to a commissioner. They created the position and hired Gary Bettman to fill it. Bettman did not create the role.
 
  • Like
Reactions: cowboy82nd

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad