GDT: #21 Devils at Flames 10pm

[Emperoreddy]

You're trying to end the game when you're up two, not go into a shell. But of course the players on the ice DID go into a shell and that's what happens. You play more conservatively when you're up one (hence why Marty never went for scoring a goal up one but would go for it up two).

And for the record, it was Greene and Severson that were on the ice when the third goal was scored, Zidlicky actually had nothing to do with either of the two goals in the final 2:30 so let's not perpetuate the myth it was his fault or Pete's fault for playing him an extra shift over Larsson up two goals or whatever, this is arguing over nothing. Greene-Severson on the ice for the third goal, Greene-Larsson on the ice for the fourth goal and we're blaming Zidlicky? Okay...

And the third goal was a bald luck rebound that bounced off greene. They should get **** on for not being more aggressive because that unit got gassed on that shift. They needed to clear badly.

And YA it was me going back and forth on possession. Really it's both the players and the coach. We know these guys know how to make these basic plays and passes. They have done it for years. Age doesn't make you forget how to pass.

Vets should want to hold themselves to a high standard and stop sloppy plwt and thr coach should hold guys accountable (bevause sometimes vets get complacent and need a kick in the ass)

 

[Khione]

You're trying to end the game when you're up two, not go into a shell. But of course the players on the ice DID go into a shell and that's what happens. You play more conservatively when you're up one (hence why Marty never went for scoring a goal up one but would go for it up two).

And for the record, it was Greene and Severson that were on the ice when the third goal was scored, Zidlicky actually had nothing to do with either of the two goals in the final 2:30 so let's not perpetuate the myth it was his fault or Pete's fault for playing him an extra shift over Larsson up two goals or whatever, this is arguing over nothing. Greene-Severson on the ice for the third goal, Greene-Larsson on the ice for the fourth goal and we're blaming Zidlicky? Okay...

Im not blaming Zidlicky. Im blaming Pete for what could have happend. Pete and his stupid coaching.

But with your resoning. We put our best defensive players on the ice when we need to score a goal, because we dont want to be under 2 goals. First defend your lead, scoring a ENG is second on the priolist.

 

[Bleedred]

LOL Ruutu is third on this team in goals. Still got 3 less minutes than the cremated remains of Zubrus, who has fewer points than Steve Bernier by the way.

 

[NJD Kula]

Did you watch the game? Are you sure about that shift chart? I don't recall Larsson sitting, and here's a different shift chart that shows Larsson with pretty regular usage:

http://hockeystats.ca/game/2014020305/shifts

Per that, Larsson had the third most time of any Devils D, behind Greene and Severson.

Look at the actual shift chart again and not just TTOI.

The point of focusing on this is to show how bad of a coach Deboer is for running Greene out to play 4 of the final 5 mins. A tired Greene who allowed the GTG scorer to walk behind Larsson who was correctly covering his own guy in front of him.

Big deal, Larsson sat for four whole minutes. Maybe they wanted other defensemen (re: Zidlicky) out with a two-goal lead to try to seal it offensively once Calgary started emptying their net. Then when Calgary got to within one with two and a half minutes left it's either send Larsson out for the next shift or save him for the final shift, which they chose the latter. Again him sitting one or maybe two shifts with a two-goal lead is not a big deal considering he played twenty-two minutes including four shifts in OT after he was on for the tying goal.

Big deal? LOL, that's the whole point. If you're a team that chronically blows leads why would to start rolling new pairs and bench the guy who has turned into your #1 shut-down defenseman.

According to your logic Deboer's plan was to save Larsson for if/when CGY scored again? What the? And it's somehow all moot because then Larsson gets overused in OT and winds up with 22 mins played?

Wouldn't it have been easier to continue to roll Larsson normally and not **** up the d-pairs more than they already were with Gelinas relegated to benchmode after 2 mins in the third?

The fact is Larsson wouldn't have played the rest of the game if CGY didn't get the 3rd goal. CGY scored though, that's what this is about. They shouldn't have scored but they did, and it's all Deboer making bad decisions.

 

[NJDevs26]

Larsson is NOT considered the #1 shutdown defenseman by anyone. Greene and Severson are clearly higher on the staff trust-meter. He's more like #3 atm.

 

[NJD Kula]

Larsson is NOT considered the #1 shutdown defenseman by anyone. Greene and Severson are clearly higher on the staff trust-meter. He's more like #3 atm.

Deboer's trust meter is broken, not sure how that helps your case.

We all know Larsson is low on the totem poll and just may as well be benched for Peter Harold. That doesn't mean he's not the best defenseman on the team.

Anyway Larsson's stats speak truth to the fact he is the Devils' #1 shut down dman. He just is, sorry to break it to you.

 

[MadDevil]

Deboer's trust meter is broken, not sure how that helps your case.

We all know Larsson is low on the totem poll and just may as well be benched for Peter Harold. That doesn't mean he's not the best defenseman on the team.

Anyway Larsson's stats speak truth to the fact he is the Devils' #1 shut down dman. He just is, sorry to break it to you.

And he was on the ice in the final minute trying to hold on to a lead. Is that not showing trust in him?

 

[Emperoreddy]

The only person benched was Gely (he is the one sitting when merrill returns. Hulk even played more then him)

Lars was third on the team in minutes ahead of Zids by a good amount.

He played 22:30. He is currently the third most trusted Dman on the team.

What are we arguing about?

 

[NHL Fanatik*]

Larsson is NOT considered the #1 shutdown defenseman by anyone. Greene and Severson are clearly higher on the staff trust-meter. He's more like #3 atm.

Larsson should be ahead of Severson. Greene should be number one, although I will agree with others saying Larsson has been our best defenseman this season so far.

 

[NJD Kula]

The only person benched was Gely (he is the one sitting when merrill returns. Hulk even played more then him)

Lars was third on the team in minutes ahead of Zids by a good amount.

He played 22:30. He is currently the third most trusted Dman on the team.

What are we arguing about?

I'm arguing that Deboer should be fired for not doing his job as coach and apparently the counter-argument to this is that Larsson played 22 minutes. LOL, what?

The point is how the Devils blew the lead to begin with and part of this is due to Deboer making bad decisions.

Since this is the CGY vs NJD thread we're talking about the final 5 minutes of this game.

Deboer is an idiot, here it is again:

Why Deboer is to blame, here are a few reasons, you need to understand he is making decisions which have a domino effect on why this team always collapses in the third.

Tonight:
After the last PK Deboer benched Larsson.
Greene+Severson out on the ice with 2 goal lead, goalie pulled. This is after Zids and Hegle were out. Also on the ice were ****ing Gionta and Bernier... Two talentless ****s. There was a chance to score EN for Bernier bit he mishandled the puck at CI. Cgy scores, go figure Greene+Severson on ice for it, -3, yay.

Larsson finally trotted out in final minute to protect lead... with Andy ****ing Greene who just played a long shift with Severson. They do clear the puck but Jagr ****s up and instead of trapping he sends it to cgy for one last rush. Greene lets his man walk across the Cr and slips behind Larsson who I guess should have covered two men?!? Anyway tie game.

Now Deboer in OT has apparently benched Gelinas and doesn't trust Helgeson since both hadn't played the final 5 mins of regulation. Deboer famously wont play a guy who he has benched for 4 mins cause they might be too cold!!! So now a 4 man d in OT that includes overplaying Andy who is now -4 and takes a penalty. Holy **** cause now Deboer can't play Greene, Helg, Gelinas, or apparently Zids on the ok cause they are too cold/zids is dumb.

Larsson kills that **** off (%100 on the ok this year, no joke) and here comes SO...
Grrrrrrr

 

[Zippy316]

I'm arguing that Deboer should be fired for not doing his job as coach and apparently the counter-argument to this is that Larsson played 22 minutes. LOL, what?

The point is how the Devils blew the lead to begin with and part of this is due to Deboer making bad decisions.

Since this is the CGY vs NJD thread we're talking about the final 5 minutes of this game.

Deboer is an idiot, here it is again:

Larsson, Severson, and Greene are DeBoer's current most trusted trio defensively, with good reason. Once Merrill gets back, they can add him to the mix and it will be even at four. However, I don't really fault DeBoer for playing Greene back-to-back. Gelinas and Zidlicky should not be out in the final minute, and Helgeson is debatable.

Playing Gionta and Bernier as well, I'm not against it as much as other people here. They may not be really talented, but they are smart, hard-working, and they will put their body on the line for this team.

 

[Emperoreddy]

I'm arguing that Deboer should be fired for not doing his job as coach and apparently the counter-argument to this is that Larsson played 22 minutes. LOL, what?

The point is how the Devils blew the lead to begin with and part of this is due to Deboer making bad decisions.

Since this is the CGY vs NJD thread we're talking about the final 5 minutes of this game.

Deboer is an idiot, here it is again:

The counter was no one saw on the shift chart that Lars was benched.

Greene and Severson got trapped on a long shift during the third goal. They couldn't clear. They get a normal clear odds are Lars would of been the next man out.

And of course he played greene a lot. Greene is our unquestionable number 1. Going away from that is a big deal. He did have a bad night but greene is pretty much the last guy you bench on this team.

He was right to not play Gely. You can't trust Gely to protect defensively. He has been a mess lately. Merrill is 100% taking his spot.

And keeping Severson with greene js not why we lost. Sorry but I'm not going along with that one.

 

[NJD Kula]

The shift chart clearly shows Lars not going on the ice after the PK. How do you argue against that. Only after Deboer blew the game did he get Larssons icetime up.

Your argument now assumes Deboer would have put Larsson on after Greene if he hadnt got caught on a long shift but that's a bit of a leap. Why did he keep sending Greene out there? Why was Larsson on the bench over four minutes long?

Essentially your defense of Deboer is that he couldn't possibly be that stupid.

 

[slammer]

There are 3 positive things about this loss, nonetheless we lost it:
1) Henrique + Elias = win! Keep them together!!!
2) Clemmenson was great, made a really good game with some outstanding saves
3) We can score!

 

[AfroThunder396]

Yeah, I'm going to go against the grain and say that Clemmensen's performance wasn't good. He was fighting the puck all night and took some terrible angles. He was flopping like a madman, coming out to play the puck at bad times, and all of his "outstanding" saves were products of being out of position or poor rebound placement.

He made a couple legitimately nice saves, but the 1st goal was an abomination and quite a few other saves were pure dumb luck.

I'm not going to blame the loss on him, two 6-on-5 and one 5-on-4 goals mean there are bigger problems to worry about. But was hardly an inspiring performance.

 

[tailfins]

The shift chart clearly shows Lars not going on the ice after the PK. How do you argue against that. Only after Deboer blew the game did he get Larssons icetime up.

Your argument now assumes Deboer would have put Larsson on after Greene if he hadnt got caught on a long shift but that's a bit of a leap. Why did he keep sending Greene out there? Why was Larsson on the bench over four minutes long?

Essentially your defense of Deboer is that he couldn't possibly be that stupid.

So, your whole argument is that Pete's an idiot for putting Greene out there for so much of the last 5 min. Greene's ice time for the last 5 min was 2:51. So, a lot, but not outrageous. If you're going to call anything out, it's that Greene was on a 1:35 shift when the tying goal was scored. I'm not sure if Greene was told to finish the game when he went out, or if he just refused to change. Either way, Larsson's only reasonable partner would have been Helgeson - so the alternative to Greene's long shift would have been a true rookie.

The reality is that having weak links like Gelinas and, to some extent, Helgeson, make decisions like this happen. If Merrill was back, we'd be able to roll three pairs more consistently vs. having Greene play half the game. That probably means Larsson gets his ice time cut. But - despite your use of Larsson as a red herring - your issue seems to be with Greene's usage, and that probably does get addressed as well.

 

[Bleedred]

Yeah, I'm going to go against the grain and say that Clemmensen's performance wasn't good. He was fighting the puck all night and took some terrible angles. He was flopping like a madman, coming out to play the puck at bad times, and all of his "outstanding" saves were products of being out of position or poor rebound placement.

He made a couple legitimately nice saves, but the 1st goal was an abomination and quite a few other saves were pure dumb luck.

I'm not going to blame the loss on him, two 6-on-5 and one 5-on-4 goals mean there are bigger problems to worry about. But was hardly an inspiring performance.

Even if it was luck, I don't expect too many performances like that out of him. I think it's likely that the puck might not be hitting him so much in future performances.

 

[NJD Kula]

So, your whole argument is that Pete's an idiot for putting Greene out there for so much of the last 5 min. Greene's ice time for the last 5 min was 2:51. So, a lot, but not outrageous. If you're going to call anything out, it's that Greene was on a 1:35 shift when the tying goal was scored. I'm not sure if Greene was told to finish the game when he went out, or if he just refused to change. Either way, Larsson's only reasonable partner would have been Helgeson - so the alternative to Greene's long shift would have been a true rookie.

The reality is that having weak links like Gelinas and, to some extent, Helgeson, make decisions like this happen. If Merrill was back, we'd be able to roll three pairs more consistently vs. having Greene play half the game. That probably means Larsson gets his ice time cut. But - despite your use of Larsson as a red herring - your issue seems to be with Greene's usage, and that probably does get addressed as well.

http://www.nhl.com/scores/htmlreports/20142015/TV020305.HTM

My argument has been clearly stated 3 times. You're choosing to ignore it, fine. Last time, more succinct:

Deboer did play Seth 3 regular shifts after 14:10. Andy played 4 minutes after 14:10. Larsson played 0 minutes after 14:10 until Cgy scored.

Argument is Deboer burned out Andy when he wasn't having a great game to begin with. Deboer sat the best dman on the team with a two goal lead.

Result = Devils blow another lead and lose.

Why is the argument "so what if Deboer had Larsson miss a few shifts" LOL that's exactly the point, only a loser would do that. The end.

 

[Better Call Sal]

Yeah, I'm going to go against the grain and say that Clemmensen's performance wasn't good. He was fighting the puck all night and took some terrible angles. He was flopping like a madman, coming out to play the puck at bad times, and all of his "outstanding" saves were products of being out of position or poor rebound placement.

He made a couple legitimately nice saves, but the 1st goal was an abomination and quite a few other saves were pure dumb luck.

I'm not going to blame the loss on him, two 6-on-5 and one 5-on-4 goals mean there are bigger problems to worry about. But was hardly an inspiring performance.

I agree with you wholeheartedly. My buddy and I refer to him as having a drunk glove, almost. He has seemingly no ability to keep that hand in the right position nor get a good grab on pucks from it. That one save in OT where he thought he had it and actually looked into his glove while it popped up in the air almost made me have a heart attack.

Nearly every time Calgary had a rush, I was nervous because Clemmer didn't look very confident all night. I like him and all, but he doesn't ease my nerves back there compared to Cory.

 

[tailfins]

Argument is Deboer burned out Andy when he wasn't having a great game to begin with. Deboer sat the best dman on the team with a two goal lead.

Not choosing to ignore anything. Your argument is just making excuses for Larsson. Deboer deserves criticism, and you're correct that his usage of Greene is suspect, but the bending over backwards to protect Larsson is unreasonable. Your argument:

1. "Greene was burned out." Fair.
I think some of the fault lies with Greene, but it's the second night of a back-to-back, and I think it's legitimate to ask why he's feeding Greene that many minutes. IMO, Greene's last shift of 1:35 is really the problem. Greene needs to change if he's exhausted there - especially with Jagr taking the puck all the way behind the goal line.

2. Larsson was "sat". False.
Larsson played 2:51 of the last 8 minutes of the game. Your "last 5 min" timeline conveniently starts soon after Larsson played 1:45 on PK. This point is is that Larsson's time was consistent with his overall usage. Larsson needs to play that last shift better. Larsson is on Glencross the whole way there and let's Glencross behind him for the rebound.

Both Larsson and Greene played soft on that last goal. They were each outworked - it's as if they were just hoping the game would end before the collapse happened. You can blame the coach for usage, earlier decisions, etc. but there's no way those two players should escape blame. They need to do better.

Larsson's still developing, so I'm hoping this is something he can learn from. If he wants to be a top d-man, he can't play like that in the future.

 

[JK3]

Yeah he's still pretty green but I wouldn't mind seeing Hegelson out there in those last minutes. The dude just hits and rag dolls anyone remotely near the net. Definitely something sorely needed in those type of situations. Pete doesn't trust him yet though.

That game still pisses me off.

BOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!

 

[Emperoreddy]

Yeah he's still pretty green but I wouldn't mind seeing Hegelson out there in those last minutes. The dude just hits and rag dolls anyone remotely near the net. Definitely something sorely needed in those type of situations. Pete doesn't trust him yet though.

That game still pisses me off.

BOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!

Tough call because he is so green, but they did need someone to clear the crease because the flames were crashing the net hard knowing Clemmer was shakey (and they were right).

Keep the crease clear and the puck further out odds are they win.

 

[EliasFTW]

Im pissed at the first goal. Sure Zajac turns it over but Ruutu is slew footed seconds before.

 

[IntangiBo]

Did want to start a thread:

Anyone where in Midtown Manhattan t catch the Devils/Canucks game at a bar? It felt like I was speaking French last night in Brookyn asking for the Hawks/Canucks.

Thx