Pre-Game Talk: 2024 Draft Thread

bleedblue1223

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He really didn’t play at all this year. When he did, he didn’t put up any points either. So why not just take Elick or Emery instead? I see them as less of a risk.
That's kind of where I am. Jiricek might have some more upside in him, but that was the hope with him this season, where he'd be able to display it, but since he's been injured, his stock is sort of stuck.
 
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ezcreepin

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That's kind of where I am. Jiricek might have some more upside in him, but that was the hope with him this season, where he'd be able to display it, but since he's been injured, his stock is sort of stuck.
Is Jiricek still seen as a high 1st round pick? I just want guys who can defend at this point.
 

sfvega

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I think you're taking what I said the wrong way.

I'm not saying "don't take D".
I'm saying our needs on D are pretty specific.
We need a top pairing LHD.
We need a potential top 4 RHD(possibly 2 depending on how long Parayko can go).
Specific high end talent. But beyond that? I don't know that we need to be overly focused on loading up on defense.

I don't see how adding a potential 3rd pairing RHD moves the needle when Kessel looks to have cemented the spot.
I don't see how adding another potential 2nd pairing LHD moves the needle when Lindstein is progressing nicely.

If the concern is about depth, I don't get that either. Just in the last 4 years we've gotten guys like Loof, Buchinger, and Burns in the 3rd round. There are always solid D prospects available in that range. Like you said, D take longer to develop and they slide in the draft as a result.

If this run on defense that you're expecting happens; then it will cause guys like Parascak, Chernyshov, Sennecke, Basha, Luchenko and Ritchie to fall, probably all the way to our 2nd. I'm not going to complain about that scenario. We're not so set up front that we can ignore offensive talent if it's there for the taking.

Eventually, yes. We might get into a situation where we have no choice but to address the defense through the trade front. But it will be a heck of a lot easier to do that if the system has a surplus of high end talent to barter with. You're not going to get high end talent by trading down. You get it by trading up. It may not be routine, but Byram for Mittlestadt type trades do happen.

I could not disagree more about defense, especially while you downplay our wingers. We might get one bottom pairing LD out of Loof, Buchinger, and Burns. I honestly liked Loof, but his progression isn't where I wanted it to be by now. But how do you talk up them and Kessel, and not our wingers? How is the D need very specific and there's so much to be done about our wingers? This seems like a bad faith argument. We have Thomas, Dvorsky, Kyrou, Neighbours, Snuggy, Stenberg, Bolduc, Pekarcik, and Buchnevich still in play. You're ready to take Basha as a left handed shot wing with these guys but not Emery? He's a bottom pairing guy apparently? Are you just enamored with points?

When I look at our D for 3, 4 years from now where are we at? We have a below average prospect pool. Lindstein is easily projectable as a top 4. Then it gets very murky very quickly. I mean, the one guy we've taken the last 8 years at D in the first two rounds who has had time to develop in Peru is a fringe NHL player. Does Buchinger break through? Does Loof take a large step? Do we bank on Burns? Is Kessel that easy to project being a stable NHL D 4, 5 etc years into the future? Because I think Toro is. I think Stenberg is. I think Snuggy is. I think Bolduc is. Where is Parayko 3, 4 years from now? Where is Faulk 3, 4 years from now? We see middling FAs get overpaid every year, who is gonna be our next Krug contract because we painted ourselves into a corner? In Wheeler's prospect rankings for us, there were 3 D in our top 10. Lindstein, obviously. He had Fischer at 8, calling him maybe a 6/7 defenseman if he develops right, and on Buchinger at 9: "I’m not settled on an NHL projection, but he’s the kind of player who feels like he’ll be solid AHL depth at minimum." I'm not sold on them either. Our defensive needs are NOT specific., we have maybe one RD on the roster who will be here 3,4 years from now in the top 4 and one prospect who we can almost comfortably project as a top 4 LD.

D do take longer to develop, but I didn't say they slide. The guys that have more routinely slid are offensive defensemen. Lane Hutson fell, probably wrongly. Dragicevic fell. Brzustewicz fell, he had a good development year but I still question his ceiling. Whereas someone like Bonk actually went earlier. That's what I'm afraid of. Elick, Emery, Badinka are all good RD prospects with skill sets we need. That's what I think is missing here. I'm not saying overlook great forward prospects at 16 to move down to like 24 and take any defenseman. I think the VALUE on them is similar, probably towards guys like Elick and Emery at a certain point. I would take Elick or Emery outright at 16 over Greentree, no questions asked, and I would expect them to be more valuable NHL players down the line outright. I'm not weighting the positional value. Like I've said, a 20+ minute, solid, cost-controlled defenseman is always going to be worth more than most wingers. Especially when a lot of our team and prospects at forward aren't great skaters, we're going to need good skating defensemen.

And we continue to kick the can down the road. Last year, how many people were saying wait on D for this year? Hey, it's supposed to be a loaded class in 2024, we'll be good. This year, it's next year. I think our fanbase is more rigid on NOT taking defense than I am on wanting to take a defenseman or two. Hell, I think most of the normal draft discussers know that I was all-in on Oliver Moore last year. I thought 2C was a huge need and I thought (and still think) he can stick at C and he's a dynamic skater, good shot, great forecheck, plays PK. Now we've got that position filled with Dvorsky, center is a lesser need.

And it's always we'll make a deal. Buffalo traded a 2C for a LD with potential. How many can we put down for trading Dvorsky for a defenseman of Byram's caliber? Probably not many. I've explained the issue with relying on other teams for defense too many times now. I'll just say A) It's a tired damn line and B) It hasn't worked so far. We don't want to paint ourselves into a corner of HAVING to take a defenseman in round 1, but we do want to paint ourselves into a corner about HAVING to rely on another team to give us a premium defenseman.

There being a run on the guys I mentioned doesn't mean that guys in the late teens early 20s are dropping to 48. That math doesn't really check out. Most mocks have them going top 40 already. Pulk not as much, but I think he could rise. And again, the offensive defenseman could slide. Maybe Hutson, maybe Mews.
 

LGB

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16 is a bad spot. All the really exciting prospects look like they'll be gone. Would be great if we could trade the pick for a young defenseman. If we have to make the pick this might be a situation where you can use it to address a need.
 

sfvega

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He really didn’t play at all this year. When he did, he didn’t put up any points either. So why not just take Elick or Emery instead? I see them as less of a risk.
I think people forget that Jiricek was in kind of a prove it year where people were really expecting him to take another step to solidify himself as a top 15 pick or so where he was projected early. He started slow and then got injured, so we never got to see him justify it. Just like Mews who was projected to take another step and kinda didn't so I think he slides out of round 1.
 
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ezcreepin

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Dec 5, 2016
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I could not disagree more about defense, especially while you downplay our wingers. We might get one bottom pairing LD out of Loof, Buchinger, and Burns. I honestly liked Loof, but his progression isn't where I wanted it to be by now. But how do you talk up them and Kessel, and not our wingers? How is the D need very specific and there's so much to be done about our wingers? This seems like a bad faith argument. We have Thomas, Dvorsky, Kyrou, Neighbours, Snuggy, Stenberg, Bolduc, Pekarcik, and Buchnevich still in play. You're ready to take Basha as a left handed shot wing with these guys but not Emery? He's a bottom pairing guy apparently? Are you just enamored with points?

When I look at our D for 3, 4 years from now where are we at? We have a below average prospect pool. Lindstein is easily projectable as a top 4. Then it gets very murky very quickly. I mean, the one guy we've taken the last 8 years at D in the first two rounds who has had time to develop in Peru is a fringe NHL player. Does Buchinger break through? Does Loof take a large step? Do we bank on Burns? Is Kessel that easy to project being a stable NHL D 4, 5 etc years into the future? Because I think Toro is. I think Stenberg is. I think Snuggy is. I think Bolduc is. Where is Parayko 3, 4 years from now? Where is Faulk 3, 4 years from now? We see middling FAs get overpaid every year, who is gonna be our next Krug contract because we painted ourselves into a corner? In Wheeler's prospect rankings for us, there were 3 D in our top 10. Lindstein, obviously. He had Fischer at 8, calling him maybe a 6/7 defenseman if he develops right, and on Buchinger at 9: "I’m not settled on an NHL projection, but he’s the kind of player who feels like he’ll be solid AHL depth at minimum." I'm not sold on them either. Our defensive needs are NOT specific., we have maybe one RD on the roster who will be here 3,4 years from now in the top 4 and one prospect who we can almost comfortably project as a top 4 LD.

D do take longer to develop, but I didn't say they slide. The guys that have more routinely slid are offensive defensemen. Lane Hutson fell, probably wrongly. Dragicevic fell. Brzustewicz fell, he had a good development year but I still question his ceiling. Whereas someone like Bonk actually went earlier. That's what I'm afraid of. Elick, Emery, Badinka are all good RD prospects with skill sets we need. That's what I think is missing here. I'm not saying overlook great forward prospects at 16 to move down to like 24 and take any defenseman. I think the VALUE on them is similar, probably towards guys like Elick and Emery at a certain point. I would take Elick or Emery outright at 16 over Greentree, no questions asked, and I would expect them to be more valuable NHL players down the line outright. I'm not weighting the positional value. Like I've said, a 20+ minute, solid, cost-controlled defenseman is always going to be worth more than most wingers. Especially when a lot of our team and prospects at forward aren't great skaters, we're going to need good skating defensemen.

And we continue to kick the can down the road. Last year, how many people were saying wait on D for this year? Hey, it's supposed to be a loaded class in 2024, we'll be good. This year, it's next year. I think our fanbase is more rigid on NOT taking defense than I am on wanting to take a defenseman or two. Hell, I think most of the normal draft discussers know that I was all-in on Oliver Moore last year. I thought 2C was a huge need and I thought (and still think) he can stick at C and he's a dynamic skater, good shot, great forecheck, plays PK. Now we've got that position filled with Dvorsky, center is a lesser need.

And it's always we'll make a deal. Buffalo traded a 2C for a LD with potential. How many can we put down for trading Dvorsky for a defenseman of Byram's caliber? Probably not many. I've explained the issue with relying on other teams for defense too many times now. I'll just say A) It's a tired damn line and B) It hasn't worked so far. We don't want to paint ourselves into a corner of HAVING to take a defenseman in round 1, but we do want to paint ourselves into a corner about HAVING to rely on another team to give us a premium defenseman.

There being a run on the guys I mentioned doesn't mean that guys in the late teens early 20s are dropping to 48. That math doesn't really check out. Most mocks have them going top 40 already. Pulk not as much, but I think he could rise. And again, the offensive defenseman could slide. Maybe Hutson, maybe Mews.
I'm not read up on the prospects this year (what's new), but I'm curious what your opinion would be - would you be ok with the Blues trading up to get someone like Eiserman assuming he falls, or would you rather stick at 16 and let a defenseman fall to them? Since we are talking about how long defenseman take to develop, is it worth it to you to get someone like Eiserman or Hage and trade one of the players on our depth chart at forward to get a more seasoned defensive prospect, or would you rather have full control of the defensive prospect drafted at 16 and develop him internally?
 

Damian Frerker

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who are the tough customers in this draft. i’m not saying goons but a tom wilson or trent fredrich type player. including defense. thanks. good stuff everyone
 

sfvega

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I'm not read up on the prospects this year (what's new), but I'm curious what your opinion would be - would you be ok with the Blues trading up to get someone like Eiserman assuming he falls, or would you rather stick at 16 and let a defenseman fall to them? Since we are talking about how long defenseman take to develop, is it worth it to you to get someone like Eiserman or Hage and trade one of the players on our depth chart at forward to get a more seasoned defensive prospect, or would you rather have full control of the defensive prospect drafted at 16 and develop him internally?
If we can trade 16 for a young defenseman with potential who has more years of development and less risk, do it 10 times out of 10. As much as I like Elick and Emery, and I think they're being slept on by being projected as bottom pairing guys, I would pass them up if it meant getting a more finished product that could help our team sooner.

Eiserman I like well enough, but I wouldn't move up for him. I think trading up is unlikely in general and probably more expensive than it's worth unless we're getting a top 9 or 10 pick, which never move. Which is why I like the idea of trading down, where we can get a comparable talent and more value. And we hold the cards, teams are always looking to move up. Army does better when dealing from a position of power.
 

ezcreepin

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Dec 5, 2016
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If we can trade 16 for a young defenseman with potential who has more years of development and less risk, do it 10 times out of 10. As much as I like Elick and Emery, and I think they're being slept on by being projected as bottom pairing guys, I would pass them up if it meant getting a more finished product that could help our team sooner.

Eiserman I like well enough, but I wouldn't move up for him. I think trading up is unlikely in general and probably more expensive than it's worth unless we're getting a top 9 or 10 pick, which never move. Which is why I like the idea of trading down, where we can get a comparable talent and more value. And we hold the cards, teams are always looking to move up. Army does better when dealing from a position of power.
That's my preference as well but you'd better be damn sure that the defenseman you're trading for is sure fire because you're foregoing the opportunity to draft and develop your own player. I only posit the question because I'm curious where the prospects stack up this year, and I've heard a lot of differing opinions about the players between 10ish to 20. My perspective from all the info I've read and heard is that there are lots of opportunities to get some solid defenseman in the 2nd and 3rd round and it might be worthwhile to move down to get more opportunities for them. In an ideal world we trade for someone like Sanderson or Edvinsson, but I highly doubt any of those trades are available right now.
 
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Blueston

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16 is a bad spot. All the really exciting prospects look like they'll be gone. Would be great if we could trade the pick for a young defenseman. If we have to make the pick this might be a situation where you can use it to address a need.
it's funny, with sennecke's rise it seems like there is a consensus top 14 now. order is fluid within that, but those 14 guys seem quite likely to be gone. but i'm not particularly bummed by it. other than top handful, i don't see these guys as appreciably better than the next 10 guys. i'm MORE excited for blues to get chance to draft some of these guys than many of the more highly touted guys. because i am highly confident a couple of these guys will be more impactful than many of the guys picked ahead of us. i'm not super confident i can tell you which prospect it will be, but the blues drafting has been pretty strong lately so i have more faith that they can identify him.
 
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STLegend

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16 is a bad spot. All the really exciting prospects look like they'll be gone. Would be great if we could trade the pick for a young defenseman. If we have to make the pick this might be a situation where you can use it to address a need.
Tarasenko?
 

Blueswin

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I'd expect him to go in 15-20ish area.
Actually coming into the season I think he was rated top #10 & as of Jan. 22nd Mckenzie's list still had him #14th while Mews was #37th. It is true that he has a lot to prove but I think there would also be a lot more potential than some of the other def. rated at the end of the 1st round. He struggled playing against men a bit like Dvorsky did.
 

Blanick

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watching the bronze medal game at u18 and freij looked like luke hughes out there. he was awesome. he had been getting better as tourney progressed, but this was next level from him.

Where is he projected to go in the draft? There are a few names on the defensive end that are projected to be possibly available around 26 that I have been keeping an eye on. Jiricek, Badinka and Elick (the latter of whom I think would be a pretty big reach).

Honestly I think unless we somehow win the draft lottery we are going to miss out on that first batch of defenseman and the second batch will be too much of a reach and we will draft another forward.
 

PerryTurnbullfan

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who are the tough customers in this draft. i’m not saying goons but a tom wilson or trent fredrich type player. including defense. thanks. good stuff everyone
Solberg, Wetsch, and He are 3 guys I saw that you don’t want to get caught with your head down. They will turn you inside out.

Yegor Surin definitely has the sandpaper.
 
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PerryTurnbullfan

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I think people forget that Jiricek was in kind of a prove it year where people were really expecting him to take another step to solidify himself as a top 15 pick or so where he was projected early. He started slow and then got injured, so we never got to see him justify it. Just like Mews who was projected to take another step and kinda didn't so I think he slides out of round 1.
I think being a RHD and his namesake keeps him in the first.
 

PerryTurnbullfan

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Where is he projected to go in the draft? There are a few names on the defensive end that are projected to be possibly available around 26 that I have been keeping an eye on. Jiricek, Badinka and Elick (the latter of whom I think would be a pretty big reach).

Honestly I think unless we somehow win the draft lottery we are going to miss out on that first batch of defenseman and the second batch will be too much of a reach and we will draft another forward.
I wouldn’t be opposed to Jesse Pulkkinen either. I think they are sleeping on him.
 
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LogosBlue

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Finally got to making my own preliminary top-100.

Let me know what you guys think of it. Forgot Kevin He though... he should probably inserted somewhere in the 80's. Trevor Connelly is on my DND-list.
This just goes to show how volatile the order is going to be after Celebrini. I've seen so many different lists and they are all over the place. Can't wait to see how it pans out.
 

PerryTurnbullfan

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No, I mean Mews fall out of round 1. I should have worded that better.
I like Mews but I like Luca Marrelli more and didn’t get why he hasn’t got better rankings compared to Mews. I thought Mews played well in the playoffs. He’s just missing something defensively. I agree with you. Lots there….but…. Reminds me of the guy we just traded to Detroit that became a top 4.
 

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