2023-24 James Norris Memorial Trophy finalists: Quinn Hughes, Roman Josi, Cale Makar

[Shane Diesel]

It's not that hockey media has him as a front runner it's that he was objectively better this whole season

Not on the PK or scoring rate.

 

[thefutures]

Not on the PK or scoring rate.

Scoring rate lol. Now it's hughes fault makar is a band aid boy. He got out scored and out played all year, and it will show in the voting. If you think it's close that says more about how much you think you know.

 

[Shane Diesel]

Scoring rate lol. Now it's hughes fault makar is a band aid boy. He got out scored and out played all year, and it will show in the voting.

He missed five games and was only outscored by two points. If you prefer to state it that way be my guest. I simply use scoring rate because it's a better comparison when games played aren't equal.

If you think it's close that says more about how much you think you know.

I've acknowledged he's the front runner and has an excellent shot at winning. I've merely pointed out the media consensus isn't always right and the votes still need to be counted. I'm not sure why you're so upset.

 

[thefutures]

He missed five games and was only outscored by two points. If you prefer to state it that way be my guest.


I've acknowledged he's the front runner and has an excellent shot at winning. I've merely pointed out the media consensus isn't always right and the votes still need to be counted. I'm not sure why you're so upset.

I'm not upset, I think you are confused about what you are watching, it just surprising to me that you don't acknowledge this Is a shoe in for quinn. I guess if u have some hope who am I to say anything.

 

[Sergei Shirokov]

Think itll be;

1. Hughes
2. Josi
3. Makar

 

[Shane Diesel]

I'm not upset, I think you are confused about what you are watching,

I watched Makar outscore Hughes on a per game basis while being a key contributor on the PK while Hughes was an after thought. Both are indisputable facts.

 

[thefutures]

I watched Makar outscore Hughes on a per game basis while being a key contributor on the PK while Hughes was an after thought. Both are indisputable facts.

And it won't mean a thing. Just like when makar had a better year than josi but josi scored 10 more points. It's gunna be quinn hughes norris and it won't be close

 

[Shane Diesel]

And it won't mean a thing. Just like when makar had a better year than josi but josi scored 10 more points. It's gunna be quinn hughes norris and it won't be close

Considering the Norris is awarded to the "best all around defenseman" the lack of pk minutes could potentially impact voters, but you never know.

If by some chance Hughes happens to lose will you return to the thread and apologize for being wrong?

 

[thefutures]

Considering the Norris is awarded to the "best all around defenseman" the lack of pk minutes could potentially impact voters, but you never know.

If by some chance Hughes happens to lose will you return to the thread and apologize for being wrong?

I don't think i have to worry about that considering how obvious the outcome is, but hypothetically yes I would acknowledge I was wrong.

I know it can be hard to accept Hughes winning a norris in makars prime considering many Avs posters here thought he was a barrie level player. That's why I wasn't sure if you knew what you were watching.

 

[Shane Diesel]

I know it can be hard to accept Hughes winning a norris in makars prime considering many Avs posters here thought he was a barrie level player. That's why I wasn't sure if you knew what you were wawatching.

And I know it can be hard admitting Hughes didn't have the greatest season for a defenseman ever and other players were competitive or even better on certain criteria the Norris is graded on.

 

[thefutures]

And I know it can be hard admitting Hughes didn't have the greatest season for a defenseman ever and other players were competitive or even better on certain criteria the Norris is graded on.

Hughes didn't have the greatest season ever. Just the best season by a defenseman this year, clearly. I guess we will find out!

 

[AllAboutAvs]

Not sure why you dont account what team he plays for. Avs have elite stars and superstars in Mack, Rantanen, Landeskog, Mittlestadt, Nischuchkin etc. Canucks only have Miller, Pettersson and Boeser as elite offensive talent and Pettersson has been up and down this year and we had below average PP. Hughes getting this many points in regular season is impressive, he drives Canucks offense. Put him on the Avs and he would break the 100 point barrier easily

I am in the camp that thinks Hughes will win this year but it will be closer than some here thinks.

By the way you are not helping your case using that Avs list. Landy hasn't played this season at all, Mitts only played 18 games in the RS with the Avs, both Nuke and Lehky missed a lot of games. When taking that into consideration it looks like Makar drives the offense a lot more than you are saying and possibly more than Hughes. Do not forget that VAN was leading the league in offense for quite a while from the start of the season. VAN slowed down offensively quite a bit after the ASG and gave the opportunity to the Avs to take the lead.

 

[lionsDen]

I’m going to use the Vancouver point of PPG.

But seriously, it’s gonna be Hughes just like it’s gonna be Mack for the hart. Deserved or not

 

[Buck Naked]

Three pages battling the extremely dumb PK argument again.

I don't know why people still think every team consist of the exact same players with the exact same skills, with the exact same coach deploying his players the exact same way, playing the exact same type of hockey.. Different players are deployed differently because they are in different situations. Quinn Hughes is not held from PKing because he's bad at it, it's because the coach feels his time is better spent elsewhere, like 5v5 and on the PP. That's it. When Makar won his Norris a few years back, he was 4th in PK time among D on the Avs. Jack Johnson didn't play more than Makar because he's better than Makar at it. It's because Bednar wanted to use Makar in other situations where he could make a greater impact. That's how hockey works.

 

[Brent Burns Beard]

why does it matter who wins? All 3 are elite and amazing contributors to their team. Finishing 3rd in Norris or 2nd doesnt change anything about their on ice impact.

some of you have too much of your identity tied up in such minutia of who is better. who cares, all 3 are awesome.

if i had to bet though, I would put my money on Hughes but so what if its Makar. He is legit a great player too.

 

[Shane Diesel]

Three pages battling the extremely dumb PK argument again.

I don't know why people still think every team consist of the exact same players with the exact same skills, with the exact same coach deploying his players the exact same way, playing the exact same type of hockey.. Different players are deployed differently because they are in different situations. Quinn Hughes is not held from PKing because he's bad at it, it's because the coach feels his time is better spent elsewhere, like 5v5 and on the PP. That's it. When Makar won his Norris a few years back, he was 4th in PK time among D on the Avs. Jack Johnson didn't play more than Makar because he's better than Makar at it. It's because Bednar wanted to use Makar in other situations where he could make a greater impact. That's how hockey works.

NHL James Norris Memorial Trophy Winners | NHL.com

Award for best defenseman first presented in 1954

www.nhl.com

The James Norris Memorial Trophy is an annual award given "to the defense player who demonstrates throughout the season the greatest all-round ability in the position."

I don't think it's a dumb discussion at all considering the criteria. Though I will be the first to admit Karlsson has won multiple Norris trophies not playing a lick of PK, but then again his point totals were so far ahead of second place for defensemen it was impossible to ignore.

 

[Buck Naked]

NHL James Norris Memorial Trophy Winners | NHL.com

Award for best defenseman first presented in 1954

www.nhl.com

The James Norris Memorial Trophy is an annual award given "to the defense player who demonstrates throughout the season the greatest all-round ability in the position."

I don't think it's a dumb discussion at all considering the criteria. Though I will be the first to admit Karlsson has won multiple Norris trophies not playing a lick of PK, but then again his point totals were so far ahead of second place for defensemen it was impossible to ignore.

It is dumb if you can't see the whole picture. Just because you don't frequent the PK the most on your team, doesn't mean that you lack the ability. There's a reason to why some of the best PKers are 4th line scrubs. It's not that hard to become good at and most players in the NHL can handle it. That's why many coaches make the decision to let their #1 elite, playdriving D focus on the much harder assignments.

 

[Golden_Jet]

I don't disagree with you the hockey media at large considers Hughes the front runner, but until the final votes are tallied we can't know for sure. Surprises have happened before.

The final votes are tallied, voters vote their top 5, the votes are tallied and the top 3 are the nominees.
We just don’t know the tally totals, league does a good job of not leaking the final 3 totals. Possibly it just spits out the top 3 names until the awards night, to keep the tally from leaking atm.

 

[Shane Diesel]

It is dumb if you can't see the whole picture. Just because you don't frequent the PK the most on your team, doesn't mean that you lack the ability. There's a reason to why some of the best PKers are 4th line scrubs. It's not that hard to become good at and most players in the NHL can handle it. That's why many coaches make the decision to let their #1 elite, playdriving D focus on the much harder assignments.

Or you could view it in the sense that coaches generally put their best players in high leverage situations to win games and Hughes isn't good enough in that particular aspect.

But I'm sure we're all just dumb for not seeing it your way and just throwing the PK completely out the door.

 

[Tobias Kahun]

I am in the camp that thinks Hughes will win this year but it will be closer than some here thinks.

By the way you are not helping your case using that Avs list. Landy hasn't played this season at all, Mitts only played 18 games in the RS with the Avs, both Nuke and Lehky missed a lot of games. When taking that into consideration it looks like Makar drives the offense a lot more than you are saying and possibly more than Hughes. Do not forget that VAN was leading the league in offense for quite a while from the start of the season. VAN slowed down offensively quite a bit after the ASG and gave the opportunity to the Avs to take the lead.

Why did makar have such a poor year away from Mackinnon if he drives the offense that good.

His numbers with and without Mackinnon are pretty far apart

 

[BigTruzz]

If Hughes played with MacKinnon he'd have 110 points this year easily

 

[Raistlin]

NHL James Norris Memorial Trophy Winners | NHL.com

Award for best defenseman first presented in 1954

www.nhl.com

The James Norris Memorial Trophy is an annual award given "to the defense player who demonstrates throughout the season the greatest all-round ability in the position."

I don't think it's a dumb discussion at all considering the criteria. Though I will be the first to admit Karlsson has won multiple Norris trophies not playing a lick of PK, but then again his point totals were so far ahead of second place for defensemen it was impossible to ignore.

It is very much a dumb discussion. Deployment changes per team, and is not a metric to determine a player's performance. A 1D is meant to play under 25 mins ideally, the coach would have to be a fool to play Hughes away from ES and PP when he tilts the ice everytime he hits the ice.

Can he defend? His underlying metrics say he is far superior in that regard to Makar, so you are arguing of WHEN he gets to defend, that, is just the coaches decision.

 

[Buck Naked]

Or you could view it in the sense that coaches generally put their best players in high leverage situations to win games and Hughes isn't good enough in that particular aspect.

But I'm sure we're all just dumb for not seeing it your way and just throwing the PK completely out the door.

No, because you're wrong. It's not an opinion, it's how it works in hockey. Do you honestly think that Jack Johnson was a better PKer than Cale Makar during 21/22, arguably the best D season in the cap era? It's not about Johnson being better, because he's not. It's because Makar's time is better utilized elsewhere. It makes no sense for him to be the #1 guy in all situations, even though he theoretically is, because that would send him so far up the LTIR that you'd not see him for months most likely. Otherwise we might as well conclude that Quinn Hughes is a much better 5v5 player than Cale Makar, because he plays almost 2 minutes more per game. Let me spoil that for you though. *He's not* He's just utilized in a different way. Or would you say that Makar was a #3 Dman 5v5 on the Avs since Byram (before being traded) and Toews because he's not as good at it? Again. It's about utilization and maximizing output. This is the job of the coach and it differs from team to team how they play their top players.

 

[Golden_Jet]

Hughes
Josi
Makar

 

[Shane Diesel]

It is very much a dumb discussion. Deployment changes per team, and is not a metric to determine a player's performance. A 1D is meant to play under 25 mins ideally, the coach would have to be a fool to play Hughes away from ES and PP when he tilts the ice everytime he hits the ice.

Can he defend? His underlying metrics say he is far superior in that regard to Makar, so you are arguing of WHEN he gets to defend, that, is just the coaches decision.

No, because you're wrong. It's not an opinion, it's how it works in hockey. Do you honestly think that Jack Johnson was a better PKer than Cale Makar during 21/22, arguably the best D season in the cap era? It's not about Johnson being better, because he's not. It's because Makar's time is better utilized elsewhere. It makes no sense for him to be the #1 guy in all situations, even though he theoretically is, because that would send him so far up the LTIR that you'd not see him for months most likely. Otherwise we might as well conclude that Quinn Hughes is a much better 5v5 player than Cale Makar, because he plays almost 2 minutes more per game. Let me spoil that for you though. *He's not* He's just utilized in a different way. Or would you say that Makar was a #3 Dman 5v5 on the Avs since Byram (before being traded) and Toews because he's not as good at it? Again. It's about utilization and maximizing output. This is the job of the coach and it differs from team to team how they play their top players.

Got it, PK is irrelevant and "all-around play" is actually some subjective definition of maximum output.

I disagree with you, but if that's how you want to judge it then fine by me.

If Hughes was blowing Makar out of the water at even strength or PP points I'd say you'd have a point his offense far outweighs any lack if PK time, but he's only marginally better there.