Prospect Info: 2023-24 Flyers Prospects - Top 3 GOALIES, #1
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deadhead
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All but Tomek are legitimate prospects, though Fedotov is a question mark in terms of age, the contract situation and his willingness to spend time in the AHL after a year off.
That still leaves the Flyers with four goalie prospects with NHL starter potential, Ersson has already flashed, Kosolov was the best 22 and under goalie in the KHL last season, the two draft picks of course are still unknowns until they play at a higher level.
The skater prospect list leaves out a number of players who have NHL potential, in terms of "hope" this group is now better than what Hextall put together, but potential is a dirty word. NHL network rated Michkov #4, Gauthier #9 and Foerster #49 in their top 50 list. That is, the "rebuild" is ahead of where Hextall was at any point (combination of prospects and under 25 players), question is whether Briere will do what Hextall didn't, continue to add assets the next two years instead of sitting on his hands.
That still leaves the Flyers with four goalie prospects with NHL starter potential, Ersson has already flashed, Kosolov was the best 22 and under goalie in the KHL last season, the two draft picks of course are still unknowns until they play at a higher level.
The skater prospect list leaves out a number of players who have NHL potential, in terms of "hope" this group is now better than what Hextall put together, but potential is a dirty word. NHL network rated Michkov #4, Gauthier #9 and Foerster #49 in their top 50 list. That is, the "rebuild" is ahead of where Hextall was at any point (combination of prospects and under 25 players), question is whether Briere will do what Hextall didn't, continue to add assets the next two years instead of sitting on his hands.
BackToTheBrierePatch
Nope not today.
blackjackmulligan
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Tripod
I hate this team
You can keep repeating BS....it doesn't make it true.
In 2017:
We had just graduated TK and Provy to the NHL and both had good rookie seasons
Ghost just finished year 2 of good play
We drafted the #2 in the draft in Patrick
We had Sanheim, Myers with top pairing upside
We had Morin, Hagg, Friedman as expected NHLers
We had Lindblom coming off SHL Player of the Year
We had Frost, Rubstov and Ratcliffe as 1st rd talent
We had WJC standouts Kase and Vorobyev
We had NCAA guys playing well in Laczynski, Allison and Marody
And still had guys with NHL upside in NAK, Laberge, etc...
You can try and pretend that we didn't have a good "skaters" pool under Hextall but it's a bold face lie. There is a reason we had a top prospect for for 3 straight years and also sent the most guys to the WJC multiple years.
And since we are in the goalie thread, in 2017 Hextall had drafted:
Hart-WHL goalie of the year and WJC starter
Sandstrom- WJC Goalie of the Tourney
Tomek- WJC played 2 games
Usti-just drafted
Fedotov
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kudymen
Hakstok was a fascist clique hiver lickballs.gif
I was reading through the Morin draft thread (via web archive) yesterday and there were quotes like "So we drafted the next Pronger and the next Lidstrom - I'm ready"
Somehow this starters quote reminded me of that thread
blackjackmulligan
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way to early on those 2023 picks to say potential starter. Chances are better they don't pan out at all. Sam isn't even proven to be starter material yet.I was reading through the Morin draft thread (via web archive) yesterday and there were quotes like "So we drafted the next Pronger and the next Lidstrom - I'm ready"
What happened to Ustimenko? He was promising at one point, wasn’t he?
deadhead
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Woah, nelly.
Sanheim and Myers did not have top pairing upside, Provorov yes, not those two, that's like saying Bonk has top pairing upside.
Morin was a holdover who was a ??? Friedman was a scrub, 3rd pair upside like a lot of current D prospects. Hagg was a 3rd pair guy.
Lindholm was similar to Cates.
Rubtsov was a flop almost as soon as he was drafted, based on his D+1, D+2 seasons.
Ratcliffe was early in the 2nd rd, similar to Brink.
Kase and Vorobyev were WJC standouts, Zanetti looked good for Switzerland, WJC is nice but often misleading.
Laczynski and Marody had physical limitations to go with their college production, similar to Rizzo.
Frost and Farabee didn't get drafted until 2017 and 2018, 3-4 years after the "rebuild" started.
Hextall drafted no one who comes close to Michkov, Patrick and Gauthier were more on the same plane as prospects.
The 2014-15 team had a core of players, G (27), Simmonds (26), Voracek (25), B Schenn (23), Couts (22), Laughton (20), MDZ (24), L Schenn (25), Ghost (21).
Breire inherited TK (25), Frost (23), Tippett (23), Cates (23), Foerster (21), Sanheim (26), Provorov (26), York (22), Hart (24), Ersson (23)
Hextall started strong with the Coburn/Kimmo trades, then outside of picking up some 3rd rd and later picks, did nothing for 4 years until the Schenn trade to rebuild.
Briere is starting strong with the Provorov trade and dumping veterans, we'll see if he continues to rebuild.
tnfrs
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Hextall used so many picks on projects, rubstov was on that russian junior team that was caught doping lol and Im pretty sure we took Ratcliffe like 3 spots before Jason Robertson if it wasnt already bad enough. And whether or not Bobby Clarke is to be believed, taking Nolan Patrick at 2OA had its own risks he was injury prone even before we found out about the migraines. f*** hextall.
Tripod
I hate this team
Wrong again.
In 2017, Sanheim and Myers certainly were thought to have that upside.
Morin just finished a 74 game AHL season
Hagg just finished a 58 Games AHL season
Friedman made his college division All Star Team
How is 20 year old SHL MVP Lindblom similar to 24 year old Cates?
Rubstov in 2017 only had his draft +1 season and ended with 22 pts in 16 games in Q
Ratcliffe...sure...compare to Brink
Ncaa comparison...laughable
Frost, sure
Farabee...why are you bringing up 2018 when I said in 2017.
Hextall didn't have a MM guy because his teams were better and the Q fluke year they won the draft, the #2 prospect was expected to be a 60ish point 2way C.
You are revising history based on results and shit development and usage. Oh, and also talking 2018 for some reason.
BACK THEN, there is a reason all the experts had us having the #1 prospect pool in the league and top 5 for 3 consecutive seasons. We had the players. We did not have luck(Patrick, Lindlom, Morin) or the proper development/coaching to get the most out of players. When almost the whole group never reaches it's upside, maybe look to the common issue....Flyers development.
Are we top 3 in prospect pool right now? Nope. Media will start posting their lists soon to get an idea where we are at.
deadhead
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None of those players went elsewhere and produced, we've seen numerous players blossom with new teams around the league.
Obviously, they were grossly overrated.
Who thought Myers and Sanheim had first pair upside?
Flyers were ranked 14th by Wheeler in January, they're sure to be top 10, maybe top 5 this summer.
Tripod
I hate this team
I love how you are trying to downplay the list that EVERYONE had as the top prospect list in hockey.
You forget Sanheim was a top 6ish Dman prospect at this time
You forget your "unicorn" Myers was a PPG guy in the Q and played excellent in the WJC before injury.
You can't change history that in 2017, we had the top prospect group and had a top 5 one for 3 years. But it's laughable that you say they were grossly overrated BY EVERYONE WHO PRODUCES THESE LISTS, yet completely dismiss that development, coaching and usage play any part in how these prospects end up.
Oh, and completely believe that our NEW group of prospects won't have the same issues. Must be due to the teaching capabilities of guys like Lappy, Stewart, and Rocky kicking around.
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tnfrs
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We were ranked highly in 2017 because of drafting Nolan Patrick and people thought Myers was a tangerine the size of a tangerine, but the very next year in 2018 our pool was ranked in the mid range, we werent ranked as a top pool for years, just that one year before the post draft hype wore off. And every single defenseman was seen as a project, as soon as they started skating NHL minutes their value plummeted.
Pronman: 2018-19 NHL farm system rankings
heres the athletic ranking us 12th in 2018
blackjackmulligan
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myers will be waived again, should the flyers take a shot......
yeah he never had to pair potential.
deadhead
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It's inconceivable that the Flyer development process was so bad it permanently destroyed a dozen prospects to the point where they couldn't bounce back on other teams while producing players like TK, etc. Twarynski is a good example, failed here, failed in Seattle, NAK was allowed to walk by Colorado in favor of two veteran 4th liners and waived by Toronto, Friedman was a scrub here and a scrub in Pittsburgh, Bunnaman is still in the AHL, Marody was a regular season AHL star for Edmonton but couldn't make it in the NHL, and so on. Doesn't mean they don't need to make changes (they had already invested a lot more in terms of resources under CF, question is how well have they employed those resources), but I don't buy the "toxic development process" theory.
There was some injury luck (Patrick, but we also now know he had entitlement issues, Lindblom, Laberge, Morin), but a lot of inflated expectations, Ratcliffe lacked the body control and eye to hand coordination to take advantage of his size, Marody was slow, Myers has rocks for brains (Nashville, the D-man factory, gave up on him), Bunnaman lacks hands, Vorobyev was big but soft and slow and has taken 3 years to become a top 6 forward in the KHL, and so on).
This group may be overestimated as well, we'll know in 3-5 years. But it is going to be ranked around #5 after this draft. And if Briere adds a few more assets at the TDL and they draft in the top ten, they may be ranked in the top 3 in the summer of 2024, given they'll have (2) 1sts and (2) 2nds.
It's not just the top 4 or 5 players, but do they develop starters out of players like Desnoyers and Avon, Samson and Sotheran. Once you get to #11-25, the failure rate is probably 75% or higher even for good teams. But this is where you develop cheap depth and find a few gems like Lindblom or Ersson or Cates.
Pronman had the Flyers ranked #6 in 2016, #1 in 2017 and #12 in 2018
theathletic.com
2018 prospect list:
1. Myers
2. Frost
3. Farabee
4. Hart
5. Lindblom
6. Vorobyev
7. JOB
8. Ratcliffe
9. Rubtsov
10. Cates
11. Strome
12. Lycksell
13. Kalynuk
14. Morin
15. Sandstrom
16. Laczynski
17. Ginning
18. Ustimenko
19. Laberge
20. Stolarz
21. Allison
22. NAK
23. Martel
What dropoped them was Patrick, Sanheim and Hagg graduating.
There was some injury luck (Patrick, but we also now know he had entitlement issues, Lindblom, Laberge, Morin), but a lot of inflated expectations, Ratcliffe lacked the body control and eye to hand coordination to take advantage of his size, Marody was slow, Myers has rocks for brains (Nashville, the D-man factory, gave up on him), Bunnaman lacks hands, Vorobyev was big but soft and slow and has taken 3 years to become a top 6 forward in the KHL, and so on).
This group may be overestimated as well, we'll know in 3-5 years. But it is going to be ranked around #5 after this draft. And if Briere adds a few more assets at the TDL and they draft in the top ten, they may be ranked in the top 3 in the summer of 2024, given they'll have (2) 1sts and (2) 2nds.
It's not just the top 4 or 5 players, but do they develop starters out of players like Desnoyers and Avon, Samson and Sotheran. Once you get to #11-25, the failure rate is probably 75% or higher even for good teams. But this is where you develop cheap depth and find a few gems like Lindblom or Ersson or Cates.
Pronman had the Flyers ranked #6 in 2016, #1 in 2017 and #12 in 2018
NHL farm system rankings: No. 12 Philadelphia Flyers
Philadelphia has the deepest system in the NHL in terms of quality depth.
theathletic.com
2018 prospect list:
1. Myers
2. Frost
3. Farabee
4. Hart
5. Lindblom
6. Vorobyev
7. JOB
8. Ratcliffe
9. Rubtsov
10. Cates
11. Strome
12. Lycksell
13. Kalynuk
14. Morin
15. Sandstrom
16. Laczynski
17. Ginning
18. Ustimenko
19. Laberge
20. Stolarz
21. Allison
22. NAK
23. Martel
What dropoped them was Patrick, Sanheim and Hagg graduating.
Tripod
I hate this team
And other publications like Sporting News, Dobber and LWOS had us at #2, #1 and #6 in 2018.
The 3 years were 2016(top 5), 2017(consensus #1), 2018(top 5).
People forget that one year we sent 9 guys to the WJC when the next best team sent 5. Or that over a 2 year span we sent 16 guys there. And that was WITH WJC eligible guy on the roster in Patrick.
Seems like when Jr age, we had shitloads of guys who impressed and did well. Then once the Flyers development touched them, things changed. Wonder why that is. We don't have 1 guy who came thru the AHL as a highly anticipated guy, and he exceeded expectations. Sanheim might be the closest thing....and all we did with him is keep him off the PP, stop him from leading rushes, etc... We never try and grow guys strengths.
tnfrs
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Ya but they were all projects is the point I was making. None of them were seen as 100% sure things, and the pool ranking overall dropped every year as we saw them play in the NHL. We had guys make the jump to the NHL at the same time most of the guys like Myers and Patrick were floundering. Konecny and Provorov both played significant minutes during this time and still do. The problem was we took too many chances, sometimes you flip a coin and it comes up heads 4 times in a row, but most of the time its a 50/50 spread of head and tails. Sometimes if you flip enough coins you get it wrong a bunch of times in a row and thats what happened. It wasnt a failure of development. We had too many prospects that not all of them were going to get the same opportunity. Its the same thing with Zamula right now, we want him to be an undrafted stud but it looks less and less likely every year.
Tripod
I hate this team
Unless you are drafting guys like McDavid, Mattews, etc..., nothing is a sure thing.
Reality is, in 2016, 17, and 18, we had what was WIDELY regarded as a top 5 prospect pool with summer of 2017 having the top one. Not by 1 guy, but when you look at ALL the media publications, we had it.
You say it wasn't a failure in development, I disagree. You can't ignore that guys who were great in Jr, NCAA, SHL, etc..., when they touched the AHL, never got better. You should always have guys who exceed expectations. Who did that for the Flyers the last 6 years that touched the AHL in any significant way? How could we not turn multiple guys who were GREAT at the WJC, into productive/serviceable 3rd or 4th liners?
You want to blame it all on luck(coin flip). You do you. It's clear it's the development. You mention Zamula, ask if he has been developed to tbe best of his abilities since leaving Jr. You know the answer. Hell, look who they say they want Attard to model his game after when everyone knows he isn't that type of player. Again, ignore strengths, hyper focus on becoming what he is not.
This all was a hextall issue. A Fletch issue. An organizational issue. And sadly, nothing changed this offseason to make honest people believe the future will be any different. Because we still have shit development guys in key roles. Roles they have already failed at.
deadhead
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I don't think the problem was gambling on upside, other than JOB, who was a flyer, and Ratcliffe, who was a tradeup based on his unique size/skating combo.
Most of the problem after the 2nd rd came with Hextall's Flyers obsession with big physical wingers with limited speed and skill.
Kase, Kalynuk were among the few small, skilled players they drafted during that stretch.
And some was just bad scouting/drafting decisions in the first two rounds.
And there was bad luck, if Patrick turns out to be a 60 point, two way center and Lindblom is a 2LW, this group looks better in hindsight, but the fact that only Cates in the 2018 group made it to the NHL as a solid starter from #6-23 is a pretty dismal record (though Ersson didn't even make this group as a 5th rd goalie). Maybe Allison will do so this season (stay healthy for one thing).
Draft a lot of players in the 1st and 2nd rds will get you a high prospect ranking for a couple years until enough information comes in to properly judge those picks - those rankings are heavily skewed to name players who are drafted high. Which is why the Flyers will be highly ranked the next two summers (this summer due to Gauthier and Michkov being eligible, next summer with Michkov and 4 more picks in the first two rounds).
Most of the problem after the 2nd rd came with Hextall's Flyers obsession with big physical wingers with limited speed and skill.
Kase, Kalynuk were among the few small, skilled players they drafted during that stretch.
And some was just bad scouting/drafting decisions in the first two rounds.
And there was bad luck, if Patrick turns out to be a 60 point, two way center and Lindblom is a 2LW, this group looks better in hindsight, but the fact that only Cates in the 2018 group made it to the NHL as a solid starter from #6-23 is a pretty dismal record (though Ersson didn't even make this group as a 5th rd goalie). Maybe Allison will do so this season (stay healthy for one thing).
Draft a lot of players in the 1st and 2nd rds will get you a high prospect ranking for a couple years until enough information comes in to properly judge those picks - those rankings are heavily skewed to name players who are drafted high. Which is why the Flyers will be highly ranked the next two summers (this summer due to Gauthier and Michkov being eligible, next summer with Michkov and 4 more picks in the first two rounds).
tnfrs
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You act like players not developing into NHLers after being highly projected is soley a Flyers problem and its not exclusive to us. It is a coin flip. theres probably 10+ players in EVERY first round that dont develop into NHLers, the years between 2016 and 2018 just stand out for us because we had alot of failed coin flips.
deadhead
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They didn't make Zamulia eat enough cheesesteaks. Mentally, he's been NHL ready for a year or two (isn't that coaching?), his problem is he's really a physical anomaly and has needed to get stronger, he's not a shifty 5'10 guy, his rangy frame means high center of gravity and limited lateral agility.
They don't want Attard to be Cernak, they want him to play defensively like D-men with similar size and speed, use your size, reach and strength to break up plays, but most importantly, understand what you're supposed to be doing defensively. The idea that good fundamental defense is antithetical to good offense (other than not cherry picking) is nonsense, when you don't have the puck, you still have to play out your shift. He's not going to be a great defender, but as we've seen with TDA, he's got to avoid being a gross liability.
Good offense is primarily instinctive, the ability to read patterns and adjust on the fly, good defense is primarily fundamentals and discipline, and that can be taught to some extent. Which is why a lot of mediocre talents become solid D-men after marinating in the AHL for 2-3 years, they learn those fundamentals as second nature.
JojoTheWhale
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I’m going to ignore this farce of a Sanheim/Bonk comp and simply ask if you’d like to use the benefit of hindsight to retract something, anything really, related to Phil Myers.
Tripod
I hate this team
MUST BLAME HEXTALL
Not the scouts
Not the development
Not the coaches
Not Fletch
Not Upper Mgt
Just Hextall
Not the scouts
Not the development
Not the coaches
Not Fletch
Not Upper Mgt
Just Hextall
Cody Webster
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I'm confused, is this a goalie thread or a bitch fest like every other thread
