2023-2024 Coaching/Management/Ownership

[JAHV]

You're drawing a pretty fine semantic line between "different standard" and "double standard." PV said they didn't want to sit guys because they didn't want to lose them, so....? Were Z's turnovers more egregious than anything else we saw? Was he the only guy to take a misconduct for barking at the refs? Cronin was ejected for f***'s sake.

It's blatantly inconsistent. Maybe communication takes the sting out of it and it doesn't matter, as you say.

Yeah you mentioned you were a coach.

It's not at all inconsistent if those things were communicated to the players beforehand, during, and afterward. If I'm coaching a player who needs work on not turning the puck over, and I know that the player best responds to playing time restrictions, I might tell that player that if he's being cavalier with the puck, he's going to sit the bench. If there are other players whose problem is that they don't take enough risks or that they're not moving the puck the way I'd like to see, I'm not going to punish them for turning the puck over since they're taking the risks I asked them to take. Or perhaps I know that these other players respond poorly to playing time restrictions and do better with hard practice drills, or private conversations, or whatever - you tailor the accountability to the player's situation.

That's not inconsistent. That's coaching. There are some rules that are across the board - don't be late to practice, don't disrespect your teammates or the officials, etc. Then there are some that are fitted to each player. And if a player came to ask me, as the coach, why did he get punished this way for this transgression while that guy didn't, I would explain it. And if the answer didn't work for the player, we'd discuss it until we came to a plan that we agreed on. All of that is behind the scenes. Is it possible that Cronin is not doing any of those things or is doing those things poorly? Sure, but I don't know why we'd assume that at this point.

And a coach being ejected is far different from a player - as a coach, I tell my players that they need to let me do the talking to the officials. There is a different rapport there and a different power dynamic. (Edit: I recognize this is different in the NHL where you have captains who are authorized to talk to the officials, but the general point remains.) And there come times, rarely, when as a coach the best thing I can do for my players is to let them know that I have their backs by getting into it with an official over a bad call. I've never been ejected as a coach, although I've gotten close, and I've had to make the calculation as to whether the benefit (the players getting fired up) is worth the cost (me not being around to manage the team). I don't think there's ever a good time for a player to get ejected; that just puts the team shorthanded.

 

[Dr Johnny Fever]

Or there are other ways he held them accountable that we did not see. We see these guys for 2.5 hours on game days; there are many, many other hours when they are together. We are not privy to what gets said or done during those times.

My interpretation of this is that Cronin, despite making the effort to go talk to a lot of these guys last summer, did not feel entirely comfortable in throwing the whole disciplinary book at them so early in their relationship. That's understandable - he's a brand new NHL coach for a brand new organization. It's not great because it might have hampered accountability, but it sounds like Cronin understands that and will be more prepared to use his entire toolbox next season now that he has a better understanding of all of his players.

I think next season will tell us a lot about Cronin's long-term viability as a head coach. I don't think he should get a complete pass for this season - there are a lot of things that we should, rightly, question about how he managed the team. But I think there are also a lot of things we didn't see, and I'm encouraged that Cronin seems to understand he needs to be better and has a plan to do so.

I agree with Hazy when he says, "there's only one tool a coach has to hold players accountable. Ice time."

I'm more than willing to give Cronin time to fix his own mistakes. But I can't believe that he and Verbeek didn't initially sit down and have a long talk about what Verbeek wants and how best to get there. To think they had to waste a year before getting on the same page isn't a good look for either.

I'll also add that it was mentioned somewhere that it was Verbeek that "encouraged" Crow to use Carlsson on the PK to give it a different look. I've previously questioned just how much "coaching" Cronin is doing and how much "coaching" Verbeek is doing. Certainly not something you would get when hiring a veteran coach with pedigree vs an old coach getting his first NHL HC gig. But that is the situation we are dealing with.

There's blame enough to go around but regardless of record, next year better show some real improvement and accountability. That's on PV and Crow.

 

[70sSanO]

It will be interesting to see how invested PV is in Cronin if his prized possessions are not progressing as Verbeek thinks they should.

Gauthier might be the defining player to make or break Cronin. Verbeek has to be feeling his oats in pulling that one off.

I can’t imagine anything more satisfying for a GM than not getting to draft a player he really wants and then getting a second chance and beating out 20 other teams.

If Cronin screws that up he’ll be on the Durango & Silverado before he knows it.

John

 

[robbieboy3686]

It will be interesting to see how invested PV is in Cronin if his prized possessions are not progressing as Verbeek thinks they should.

Gauthier might be the defining player to make or break Cronin. Verbeek has to be feeling his oats in pulling that one off.

I can’t imagine anything more satisfying for a GM than not getting to draft a player he really wants and then getting a second chance and beating out 20 other teams.

If Cronin screws that up he’ll be on the Durango & Silverado before he knows it.

Our Gm tried hard to trade up to get the flyers pick for boss man cutter. We end up fleecing them sending little man glassdale the other way. I’m still gitty

 

[The Midnight Burrito]

It's not at all inconsistent if those things were communicated to the players beforehand, during, and afterward. If I'm coaching a player who needs work on not turning the puck over, and I know that the player best responds to playing time restrictions, I might tell that player that if he's being cavalier with the puck, he's going to sit the bench. If there are other players whose problem is that they don't take enough risks or that they're not moving the puck the way I'd like to see, I'm not going to punish them for turning the puck over since they're taking the risks I asked them to take. Or perhaps I know that these other players respond poorly to playing time restrictions and do better with hard practice drills, or private conversations, or whatever - you tailor the accountability to the player's situation.

That's not inconsistent. That's coaching. There are some rules that are across the board - don't be late to practice, don't disrespect your teammates or the officials, etc. Then there are some that are fitted to each player. And if a player came to ask me, as the coach, why did he get punished this way for this transgression while that guy didn't, I would explain it. And if the answer didn't work for the player, we'd discuss it until we came to a plan that we agreed on. All of that is behind the scenes. Is it possible that Cronin is not doing any of those things or is doing those things poorly? Sure, but I don't know why we'd assume that at this point.

And a coach being ejected is far different from a player - as a coach, I tell my players that they need to let me do the talking to the officials. There is a different rapport there and a different power dynamic. (Edit: I recognize this is different in the NHL where you have captains who are authorized to talk to the officials, but the general point remains.) And there come times, rarely, when as a coach the best thing I can do for my players is to let them know that I have their backs by getting into it with an official over a bad call. I've never been ejected as a coach, although I've gotten close, and I've had to make the calculation as to whether the benefit (the players getting fired up) is worth the cost (me not being around to manage the team). I don't think there's ever a good time for a player to get ejected; that just puts the team shorthanded.

You're confusing integrity (acting consistently towards a principle) with fairness (consistently applying a rule). Double standards are literally unfair, because they imply different rules for different people. If your philosophy is, I tell people what I expect of them, I expect different things from different people and if they don't live up to those different things, then I'll punish them according to what I said. That's essentially keeping your word, even though it may not be fair. It would be functionally the same if you said, "I am an asshole and I am going to treat you the way an asshole treats people." When you're an asshole, no one can complain that they didn't know what to expect, because at least you're an asshole who keeps his word. (I'm not calling you an asshole, I'm just illustrating a point)

But that doesn't mean that, when you say "if you turn the puck over I'm going to bench you, but if he turns the puck over I'm not going to bench him," you're not being unfair. I'm not even saying you're wrong to do this, but you should at least acknowledge that it's literally a double standard and that it risks alienating people if the communication isn't pristine.

And again, Z seems happy and Cro seems happy with him so, fine. The only one who won't shut up about how Z needs to improve is PV at this point.

 

[Smirnov2Chistov]

So far most of what Verbeek has done have been good moves. The one bad move, possibly perceived a desperate need for a center was Ryan Strome. Since that time we have a plethora of quality centers, as well as pinatas, and Strome is at best a 3rd line center and at worst a wing. Killorn contract will continue to a question mark, but Vatrano has exceeded all expectations.

I mean, the jury is still out on a bunch of his moves.

Manson was traded for Terrance (2nd round pick) and Helleson. Terrance could be something, Helleson is a mystery.

Lindholm was traded for Vaaks (who many on here was considered an after thought), Gaucher (polarizing on here, maybe middle-six potential?), Damien Clara (seems promising) and one more upcoming draft pick.

Cutter for Drysdale may be the most impactful, but everything else is really up in the air

 

[snowave]

If Cronin screws that up he’ll be on the Durango & Silverado before he knows it.

John

It's the Durango - Silverton... great train ride... plenty of spots along that route to toss PV over into the river.

 

[JAHV]

You're confusing integrity (acting consistently towards a principle) with fairness (consistently applying a rule). Double standards are literally unfair, because they imply different rules for different people. If your philosophy is, I tell people what I expect of them, I expect different things from different people and if they don't live up to those different things, then I'll punish them according to what I said. That's essentially keeping your word, even though it may not be fair. It would be functionally the same if you said, "I am an asshole and I am going to treat you the way an asshole treats people." When you're an asshole, no one can complain that they didn't know what to expect, because at least you're an asshole who keeps his word. (I'm not calling you an asshole, I'm just illustrating a point)

But that doesn't mean that, when you say "if you turn the puck over I'm going to bench you, but if he turns the puck over I'm not going to bench him," you're not being unfair. I'm not even saying you're wrong to do this, but you should at least acknowledge that it's literally a double standard and that it risks alienating people if the communication isn't pristine.

And again, Z seems happy and Cro seems happy with him so, fine. The only one who won't shut up about how Z needs to improve is PV at this point.

I don't believe I'm confusing those two things (fairness and integrity). They're inextricably linked in coaching. Fairness is setting standards for an individual player that are both achievable and motivational. Some of those standards will be universal among players, some will be individualized based on the player's skill level and character. Integrity is holding players accountable to those standards as they've been communicated. One is meaningless without the other: without integrity, fair standards mean nothing since I'm not holding players accountable to the standards that have been set. Without fair standards, integrity just means I'm holding players to standards they can't meet. Either way you get resentment and frustration from your team.

I'll stipulate that setting different standards might meet a strict definition of "double standard," but I strongly disagree that it is unfair. For example, it would be unfair (and stupid) for Cronin to set a standard for scoring chance generation and then hold Trevor Zegras and Ross Johnston to that same standard. Every coach has to set standards for individual players based on that player's role and ability. And yes, that might mean that if you turn the puck over I'm going to bench you but if he turns the puck over I'm not going to bench him and be completely fair. Thorough communication is crucial, but I wouldn't say it has to be "pristine." What we're talking about here is one of the fundamental aspects of coaching - figuring out which rules/standards need to be applied equally and which need to be tailored to individuals, and then how to communicate and apply them while keeping everyone united in working toward the same goals.

It's a difficult balance to strike. Hopefully Cronin is striking it well with Zegras. From what we know, he seems to be. If he's not, it will probably start manifesting next year as players get tired of his schtick.

 

[Hockey Duckie]

I don't believe I'm confusing those two things (fairness and integrity). They're inextricably linked in coaching. Fairness is setting standards for an individual player that are both achievable and motivational. Some of those standards will be universal among players, some will be individualized based on the player's skill level and character. Integrity is holding players accountable to those standards as they've been communicated. One is meaningless without the other: without integrity, fair standards mean nothing since I'm not holding players accountable to the standards that have been set. Without fair standards, integrity just means I'm holding players to standards they can't meet. Either way you get resentment and frustration from your team.

I'll stipulate that setting different standards might meet a strict definition of "double standard," but I strongly disagree that it is unfair. For example, it would be unfair (and stupid) for Cronin to set a standard for scoring chance generation and then hold Trevor Zegras and Ross Johnston to that same standard. Every coach has to set standards for individual players based on that player's role and ability. And yes, that might mean that if you turn the puck over I'm going to bench you but if he turns the puck over I'm not going to bench him and be completely fair. Thorough communication is crucial, but I wouldn't say it has to be "pristine." What we're talking about here is one of the fundamental aspects of coaching - figuring out which rules/standards need to be applied equally and which need to be tailored to individuals, and then how to communicate and apply them while keeping everyone united in working toward the same goals.

It's a difficult balance to strike. Hopefully Cronin is striking it well with Zegras. From what we know, he seems to be. If he's not, it will probably start manifesting next year as players get tired of his schtick.

Wow. That was a lot of obfuscation.

Under Eakins, he benched a lot of players. Eakins was so fed up with Rico's play that the only thing Eakins could do was tell his boss about it and GM Murray waived Rico, and this was in year 2 of the Murray rebuild. Last year, I recall Eakins benching Comtois, Mac, and one other forward (maybe Jones) altogether b/c they did something stupid. The video of all three looking solemn after being reprimanded was quite a sight.

That type of accountability wasn't present this year with Cronin such that we are all identifying there is a double standard. Yet, Verbeek stated there was accountability going on this year despite Cronin admitting he was tiptoeing around some players.

There's a base level of standard that should be upheld across the board, such as an unforced puck turnover at the blueline without pressure will get you benched. Expanding the individual standard below that base level standard is where we identify "double standards", especially when we're talking about NHL players instead of tikes playing soccer.

Communication and expectations are key, but we've heard Cronin exasperated at a post-game interview that he doesn't know what to say after a loss and blaming it on the players to figure it out.

 

[WhatTheDuck]

 

[Sean Garrity]

Gibson is an asshole who likely declined and asked to trade out with someone else. Suds has gotta be so strong to open up like that to a national media member, I don’t think I ever could.

 

[duxfan1101]

Ducks Stream is starting to gain some recognition. According to the article, it’s been a huge positive for the organization.

 

[Static]

Who would have thought that consistent fan outreach would be a boon. They are doing a much better job with it and I'm glad it's making the rounds.

 

[ohcomeonref]

Hopefully they bring Newell on after he's let go this summer.

 

[Rybread86]

Who would have thought that consistent fan outreach would be a boon. They are doing a much better job with it and I'm glad it's making the rounds.

Ive been banging on that drum for 15+ years. Their marketing was always crap and they finally addressed it. What we are seeing this season with DucksStream, bands, brands, celebs, its been great.

 

[Gliff]

I wish they had an app for it instead of requiring the website or TuneIn.

I understand why they havent done it, but that is the final step in my opinion. TuneIn is terrible and has so many adds.

 

[Rybread86]

I wish they had an app for it instead of requiring the website or TuneIn.

I understand why they havent done it, but that is the final step in my opinion. TuneIn is terrible and has so many adds.

Seems like still a work in progress. At first almost everything was audio only. Now its a lot more videos. Id bet a dollar to a donut that once the NHL is able to wrap their heads around it, they will make it part of the NHL App and each team will have their Stream channel available there.

 

[Gliff]

Seems like still a work in progress. At first almost everything was audio only. Now its a lot more videos. Id bet a dollar to a donut that once the NHL is able to wrap their heads around it, they will make it part of the NHL App and each team will have their Stream channel available there.

Ya that would be a nightmare. The NHL website and app are terrible from a UX standpoint. If I was the Ducks and I took this leap I would want control of my product. Make an app where navigation of previous content is intuitive and easy, have the videos associated so you can easily go to the youtube video and watch it.

It would be nice if they could host their own videos but there is basically no way to do it cheaper and better then letting youtube handle it.

 

[SmokeyDuck]

Ive been banging on that drum for 15+ years. Their marketing was always crap and they finally addressed it. What we are seeing this season with DucksStream, bands, brands, celebs, its been great.

The marketing improved around when PV was hired. I wonder if he has anything to do with it.

 

[duxfan1101]

The marketing improved around when PV was hired. I wonder if he has anything to do with it.

From what it sounds like, Murray kept a really tight ship and didn't allow for much creativity. Verbeek probably doesn't come up with any ideas when it comes to marketing the team, but he seems much less restrictive of what they can and can't do.

 

[SmokeyDuck]

From what it sounds like, Murray kept a really tight ship and didn't allow for much creativity. Verbeek probably doesn't come up with any ideas when it comes to marketing the team, but he seems much less restrictive of what they can and can't do.

Plausible for sure.

 

[Dr Johnny Fever]

I don’t understand why Henry isn’t or hasn’t been pushing marketing more. It’s his business to try and build. I don’t thin a GM should be in charge of things like that. There just needs to be an understanding that marketing doesn’t make public things they shouldn’t. But then you’d expect Henry to tell them that anyway.

 

[Hockey Duckie]

Two schools of thought on development on prospects from across the pond.

Verbeek, from The Hockey News:

"Overall, I'd do it again," Pat Verbeek said of the plan he put in place for Carlsson's development in his rookie season. "If there's another player (who's) in a similar circumstance, I'm going to do the same thing. I think it helps those players adjust at a moderate pace. They get to watch some games, sit up top (in the press box), and learn what it looks like so they're more prepared."​

Silf on Ducks Stream, paraphrasing:

He was happy to have gone the AHL route first to get accustomed to the NHL rink size, NA culture, the whole shebang. That helped him develop much more to the NA game and was eventually called up mid-season. ​

==========

Verbeek doubling down on his load mgmt idea. smh Completely going against his other school of thought that he's rather have prospects overripened before going to the NHL.