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OT: 2021 Football Thread - Part II

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ponzu4u

ponzu4u

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Feb 27, 2013
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So just to be clear on the utter state of embarrassment the Giants franchise is currently buried in...

The spin train is rolling as the articles continue to come out about how little influence anyone in the organization has had since Gettleman arrived and that he's basically been operating as a solitary figure and not taking input from others. A convenient excuse so that Mara won't have to fire any family members or long time staff. The latest example being this recent Paul Schwartz piece, where he literally argues that Chris Mara and Kevin Abrams should be kept because... THEY LITERALLY DONT DO ANYTHING.

I honestly still can't wrap my head around the idiocy of his article. The Giants currently have arguably the worst salary cap situation in the league heading into next year, but apparently, the team's "cap guru" also known as the Assistant GM and VP of Football Operations HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THAT.

Meanwhile, the Giants have a pathetic draft record over the past 5+ years, despite having arguably the best draft capital in the league during that time... but apparently THE SENIOR VP OF PLAYER DEVELOPMENT has nothing to do with that! But don't worry, he has two famous daughters and owns thoroughbred horses so it's acceptable that he serves apparently no function in that role.

A couple weeks ago, an entire expose came out about just how toxic and disfunctional the organization has become. An ex scout of the Giants took to twitter to confirm this. So the Giants SENIOR VP of COMMUNICATIONS, the supposed #1 media professional in the organization, decided it was a good idea to take to Twitter and personally attack the ex scout. Talk about unprofessional.

And as of last night, you now have what appears to be the Giants Director of College Scouting, Chris Pettit (who has been accused of being a true asshole and toxic personality) creating twitter burner accounts to try and defend the drafting/development of the team and tell fans to keep the faith, it's all sorted out, and everything will be better next year (importantly no significant changes needed!).
 
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Roo Returns

Roo Returns

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Mar 4, 2010
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ponzu4u said:
So just to be clear on the utter state of embarrassment the Giants franchise is currently buried in...

The spin train is rolling as the articles continue to come out about how little influence anyone in the organization has had since Gettleman arrived and that he's basically been operating as a solitary figure and not taking input from others. A convenient excuse so that Mara won't have to fire any family members or long time staff. The latest example being this recent Paul Schwartz piece, where he literally argues that Chris Mara and Kevin Abrams should be kept because... THEY LITERALLY DONT DO ANYTHING.

I honestly still can't wrap my head around the idiocy of his article. The Giants currently have arguably the worst salary cap situation in the league heading into next year, but apparently, the team's "cap guru" also known as the Assistant GM and VP of Football Operations HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THAT.

Meanwhile, the Giants have a pathetic draft record over the past 5+ years, despite having arguably the best draft capital in the league during that time... but apparently THE SENIOR VP OF PLAYER DEVELOPMENT has nothing to do with that! But don't worry, he has two famous daughters and owns thoroughbred horses so it's acceptable that he serves apparently no function in that role.

A couple weeks ago, an entire expose came out about just how toxic and disfunctional the organization has become. An ex scout of the Giants took to twitter to confirm this. So the Giants SENIOR VP of COMMUNICATIONS, the supposed #1 media professional in the organization, decided it was a good idea to take to Twitter and personally attack the ex scout. Talk about unprofessional.

And as of last night, you now have what appears to be the Giants Director of College Scouting, Chris Pettit (who has been accused of being a true asshole and toxic personality) creating twitter burner accounts to try and defend the drafting/development of the team and tell fans to keep the faith, it's all sorted out, and everything will be better next year (importantly no significant changes needed!).
Click to expand...

One again: let's get to the root cause. What changed so much between 2011 to now if it's mostly the same people? Coughlin forced out?

Was the last good draft they've had in 2007 because Acorsi left a napkin on Jerry Reese's desk?

The Giants haven't been a dominating team in the NFL since around 1993. The last three Super Bowl appearances were more of getting hot at the right time/starting to click.

If you look at the Giants vs. Rangers for example since 2005 in terms of overall record and organizational consistency, the Rangers win hands down but the Giants got really hot and really lucky for a few weeks twice in four years so it changes the narrative.
 
ponzu4u

ponzu4u

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Feb 27, 2013
521
267
Roo Returns said:
One again: let's get to the root cause. What changed so much between 2011 to now if it's mostly the same people? Coughlin forced out?
Click to expand...

I don't think I understand your point?

2011 was ten years ago. The NFL has changed drastically since then and the Giants have not at all. I was 28 ten years ago, I'm the same person but believe me a lot has changed.

Parity exists in the NFL. Are you aware of how many franchises have even won Superbowls since 1993? Of how many franchises that would kill for the success of the Giants? Are you suggesting that every year they didn't win a Superbowl was a failure? Going to the SB in 2000 after finishing 12-4 and winning the NFC East doesn't count? From the years 2005-2011 the Giants went 11-5, 8-8, 10-6, 12-4, 8-8, 10-6, and then won their second Superbowl during that time span after going 9-7.

Getting hot at the right time and starting to click is exactly how teams win Superbowls in the NFL. You're shrugging off THREE Superbowls, which again, you're aware only 9 teams in the history of the NFL have ever won 3 or more Superbowls in the history of their franchises?

Could you state what you believe the root cause is?
 
Boris Zubov

Boris Zubov

No relation to Sergei, Joe
May 6, 2016
17,732
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Back on the east coast
ponzu4u said:
So just to be clear on the utter state of embarrassment the Giants franchise is currently buried in...

The spin train is rolling as the articles continue to come out about how little influence anyone in the organization has had since Gettleman arrived and that he's basically been operating as a solitary figure and not taking input from others. A convenient excuse so that Mara won't have to fire any family members or long time staff. The latest example being this recent Paul Schwartz piece, where he literally argues that Chris Mara and Kevin Abrams should be kept because... THEY LITERALLY DONT DO ANYTHING.

I honestly still can't wrap my head around the idiocy of his article. The Giants currently have arguably the worst salary cap situation in the league heading into next year, but apparently, the team's "cap guru" also known as the Assistant GM and VP of Football Operations HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THAT.

Meanwhile, the Giants have a pathetic draft record over the past 5+ years, despite having arguably the best draft capital in the league during that time... but apparently THE SENIOR VP OF PLAYER DEVELOPMENT has nothing to do with that! But don't worry, he has two famous daughters and owns thoroughbred horses so it's acceptable that he serves apparently no function in that role.

A couple weeks ago, an entire expose came out about just how toxic and disfunctional the organization has become. An ex scout of the Giants took to twitter to confirm this. So the Giants SENIOR VP of COMMUNICATIONS, the supposed #1 media professional in the organization, decided it was a good idea to take to Twitter and personally attack the ex scout. Talk about unprofessional.

And as of last night, you now have what appears to be the Giants Director of College Scouting, Chris Pettit (who has been accused of being a true asshole and toxic personality) creating twitter burner accounts to try and defend the drafting/development of the team and tell fans to keep the faith, it's all sorted out, and everything will be better next year (importantly no significant changes needed!).
Click to expand...

Would like this post 1000 times if I could. Chris Mara, Ronnie Barnes, & Pat Hanlon all continue to embarrass themselves on a regular basis. Now we can add Chris Pettit to the list. Getting a FO job with the NY football Giants is like winning a seat in Congress...basically hired for life.

I wonder how they glad-handed Schwartz to publish that turd of a story. For him to suggest that Chris Mara has been a serious candidate for NFL GM jobs is completely absurd, beyond laughable & borderline delusional.
 
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Roo Returns

Roo Returns

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ponzu4u said:
I don't think I understand your point?

2011 was ten years ago. The NFL has changed drastically since then and the Giants have not at all. I was 28 ten years ago, I'm the same person but believe me a lot has changed.

Parity exists in the NFL. Are you aware of how many franchises have even won Superbowls since 1993? Of how many franchises that would kill for the success of the Giants? Are you suggesting that every year they didn't win a Superbowl was a failure? Going to the SB in 2000 after finishing 12-4 and winning the NFC East doesn't count? From the years 2005-2011 the Giants went 11-5, 8-8, 10-6, 12-4, 8-8, 10-6, and then won their second Superbowl during that time span after going 9-7.

Getting hot at the right time and starting to click is exactly how teams win Superbowls in the NFL. You're shrugging off THREE Superbowls, which again, you're aware only 9 teams in the history of the NFL have ever won 3 or more Superbowls in the history of their franchises?

Could you state what you believe the root cause is?
Click to expand...

I am a Giants fan and like I've said, all Giants fans need to stop complaining about the ten years ago argument. They won two Super Bowls as underdogs with some luck in four years.

Any of us as Rangers fans would sign up for one yet alone two Cups in four years as an 8th seed if it meant missing the playoffs for most or all of a decade plus.

I'm aware of parity in the league and once again I'm lucky and fortunate that the Giants are the one team I follow that has been fairly consistent in my life, but also lucky. The Rangers have had none of the Giants luck historically or they have at least 1-3 more Cups.

The Giants under Coughlin were never dominant. Both seasons they won the Super Bowl they were 9-7 and 10-6. Which is fine. The one great regular season they had was when Plaxico Burress shot himself in the hip. The year with Collins they made it to the Super Bowl when they beat the Vikings, Wellington Mara himself said "we're considered the worst team to ever win the NFC, let's be the worst team to ever win a Super Bowl" in his postgame speech.

One more time, I am very fortunate to be a Giants fan.

I was asking you what you think the root cause is. I will give my opinion. It's been bad management: they've hired the wrong coaches, bad scouting, bad drafting, and focusing on the wrong position players to draft. JPP the best pick Reese made. I don't think Wilson would have been that great if he didn't suffer the neck injuries. I could see him as a journeyman back in a West Coast Offense.

The problem under Gettelman was he never worked on the OLine. He needed to draft and develop at least 2x as many of these guys year after year until it was stabilized. Same with a pass rush. Even with their draft capital they had all of these fringe players he inherited like Engram who I've never liked and Sheppard who I have liked but is not durable. You trade them for mid round picks and draft OLine or Pass Rushers to develop. They also gave a lot of money to players like Solder and Golladay who were overrated. You can't talk about Hog Mollies and do absolutely nothing to improve it year after year.

A lot of Giants fans also say they should have never got rid of Coughlin which is valid but if the NFL has changed in ten years like you said, you can't keep all of the same guys if their recent track record 5-6 years after a championship is not good.

They need a modern GM who knows how to draft and develop.
 
Boris Zubov

Boris Zubov

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May 6, 2016
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Roo Returns said:
I am a Giants fan and like I've said, all Giants fans need to stop complaining about the ten years ago argument. They won two Super Bowls as underdogs with some luck in four years.

Any of us as Rangers fans would sign up for one yet alone two Cups in four years as an 8th seed if it meant missing the playoffs for most or all of a decade plus.

I'm aware of parity in the league and once again I'm lucky and fortunate that the Giants are the one team I follow that has been fairly consistent in my life, but also lucky. The Rangers have had none of the Giants luck historically or they have at least 1-3 more Cups.

The Giants under Coughlin were never dominant. Both seasons they won the Super Bowl they were 9-7 and 10-6. Which is fine. The one great regular season they had was when Plaxico Burress shot himself in the hip. The year with Collins they made it to the Super Bowl when they beat the Vikings, Wellington Mara himself said "we're considered the worst team to ever win the NFC, let's be the worst team to ever win a Super Bowl" in his postgame speech.

One more time, I am very fortunate to be a Giants fan.

I was asking you what you think the root cause is. I will give my opinion. It's been bad management: they've hired the wrong coaches, bad scouting, bad drafting, and focusing on the wrong position players to draft. JPP the best pick Reese made. I don't think Wilson would have been that great if he didn't suffer the neck injuries. I could see him as a journeyman back in a West Coast Offense.

The problem under Gettelman was he never worked on the OLine. He needed to draft and develop at least 2x as many of these guys year after year until it was stabilized. Same with a pass rush. Even with their draft capital they had all of these fringe players he inherited like Engram who I've never liked and Sheppard who I have liked but is not durable. You trade them for mid round picks and draft OLine or Pass Rushers to develop. They also gave a lot of money to players like Solder and Golladay who were overrated. You can't talk about Hog Mollies and do absolutely nothing to improve it year after year.

A lot of Giants fans also say they should have never got rid of Coughlin which is valid but if the NFL has changed in ten years like you said, you can't keep all of the same guys if their recent track record 5-6 years after a championship is not good.

They need a modern GM who knows how to draft and develop.
Click to expand...

I don't really see what you're advocating for here? Sure the Giants were lucky to win two Super Bowls in the past 14 years, but they weren't dominant enough, in your opinion? So what? They were plenty dominant in 2008 before Plaxico went full re+ard. What does that have to do with the sorry state of affairs that currently defines them?
 
Roo Returns

Roo Returns

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Boris Zubov said:
I don't really see what you're advocating for here? Sure the Giants were lucky to win two Super Bowls in the past 14 years, but they weren't dominant enough, in your opinion? So what? They were plenty dominant in 2008 before Plaxico went full re+ard. What does that have to do with the sorry state of affairs that currently defines them?
Click to expand...

I'm not advocating for anything. I'm saying it's great the Giants won. It's amazing they did.

You can't go back to the old regime and the current regime is terrible, so a new regime needs to come in, and also Giants fans (which again I am one) need to chill out a little longer. Two Super Bowls in four years? I'd much rather the Rangers win a Cup this decade.
 
Gordon Bombay

Gordon Bombay

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Oct 13, 2006
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The last 10 years of NY football boils down to the owners. Doesn't matter if your a Giants or Jets fan. Both ownerships are god awful and need to get out of the way.

They say JD has full control of the Jets. We'll see. Woody will stick his neck into things soon enough, more likely once they start getting over the hill.

The Mara's. Well for once, they're a couple years behind the Jets. Stop hiring from within and hire a real VP of football operations and go away. Like others have said before, the NFL isn't going to step in this time and give them a George Young.
 
Boris Zubov

Boris Zubov

No relation to Sergei, Joe
May 6, 2016
17,732
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Back on the east coast
Roo Returns said:
I'm not advocating for anything. I'm saying it's great the Giants won. It's amazing they did.

You can't go back to the old regime and the current regime is terrible, so a new regime needs to come in, and also Giants fans (which again I am one) need to chill out a little longer. Two Super Bowls in four years? I'd much rather the Rangers win a Cup this decade.
Click to expand...

I think what you're trying to say was more acceptable in 2015 or maybe 2017, but this has literally been a decade of embarrassing, unwatchable football where they haven't played a meaningful game past Halloween, sans 2016. Bad football would be a step up....The Giants have made the Cleveland Browns look like an enviable NFL franchise in retrospect. How is that possible?

I had no problem firing TC, with the caveat Reese went along with him. Same with Shurmur & Gettleman. But here we go again & it's becoming too predictable at this point.
There is no defending this tire fire or the inept management that yet again seems like they're going to refuse to fire their GM & Coach in tandem.
 
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Roo Returns

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Boris Zubov said:
I think what you're trying to say was more acceptable in 2015 or maybe 2017, but this has literally been a decade of embarrassing, unwatchable football where they haven't played a meaningful game past Halloween, sans 2016. Bad football would be a step up....The Giants have made the Cleveland Browns look like an enviable NFL franchise in retrospect. How is that possible?

I had no problem firing TC, with the caveat Reese went along with him. Same with Shurmur & Gettleman. But here we go again & it's becoming too predictable at this point.
There is no defending this tire fire or the inept management that yet again seems like they're going to refuse to fire their GM & Coach in tandem.
Click to expand...

They need to get it right this team with a progressive GM.

Great and consistent franchises go through rough patches. When I started watching football in the late 80s, the Cowboys, Steelers and Packers were all bad, and the Patriots, Bucs, and Seahawks were amongst the worst teams in the league.
 
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