Rumor: 2021-22 Trade Rumours and FA Part III: Should we trade Girard or not ? Part 99

[Frenchy]

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[John Mandalorian]

In before lock.

 

[flyfysher]

@Foppa2118

Sorry in advance for the length of the post.

Looking at players like Graves and Girard, I think both were the right players for the team at the time they were acquired. In Graves' case though, I felt the team outgrew him. By that I mean when Graves first came up, he had a knack for sometimes finding himself in the right spot to break up plays and it was refreshing that he could play up with someone like Makar. Turns out, Makar could carry a sloth as a partner and his pairing would still shine. JK. But the team outgrew Graves and the same qualities which were previously useful, such as an aggressiveness to join the rush, became a liability as Toews, Girard and Byram pushed him down to third pairing. That meant the team needed a more reliable stay at home guy which at this point would be some like Murray.

Not sure the team is at the same point with Girard. Yes, he is one great PMD and I also believe he is misperceived as a #1. I'm not a stat hound but I can see your point about skewed analytics.

After J. Toews scored his goal while being covered by Girard, I saw the same defensive scheme with Girard covering down low. So the issue is either how Girard is being used so as to maximize his weakness or a defensive failure on his part, either being too small and outmuscled which is just a function of his size - you take the good (PMD) with the bad. If that's the case and he has to cover down low, then at a minimum he should have lifted Toews' stick. That failure bodes ill for the POs. You know other teams and especially the VGK will try to exploit that again. I had hoped someone like EJ or D. Toews would be fulfilling that net front presence instead.

When I read about potentially acquiring Chychrun, my reaction was WTF? We need a 3C or at least top 6 forward or maybe a backup 3D. But I can now see the utility in such a move. Call me a size queen but I don't want the team to get pushed around in the POs.

I recall when Girard was first acquired and what a huge difference it was. And he fits JB's scheme. That said, I wonder if the team has outgrown him in terms of reaching that next level of PO performance? I'm fine with keeping Girard because he's undervalued on the market. However, I do see him as a potentially moveable prime asset if the team can pick up someone else that fills a position of greater need.

In fairness to Girard, the fan base's expectations have changed. When he arrived here, we were thrilled for the team to just make the POs. Now, we'll be calling to burn down the organization if they fail to make it to/through the 2nd round.

The question is whether Girard is the best asset we could acquire for a position of need given his value. That's one thing Sakic has been scrupulous about since Roy left until he got caught in the situation with Kuemper. However, I think that was more a situation of circumstance forced on him given his priorities in signing Makar and Landeskog first and Anderson's bailing on him. No GM will always have circumstances go their way.

What's your take on keeping Girard?

 

[John Mandalorian]

@Foppa2118

Sorry in advance for the length of the post.

Looking at players like Graves and Girard, I think both were the right players for the team at the time they were acquired. In Graves' case though, I felt the team outgrew him. By that I mean when Graves first came up, he had a knack for sometimes finding himself in the right spot to break up plays and it was refreshing that he could play up with someone like Makar. Turns out, Makar could carry a sloth as a partner and his pairing would still shine. JK. But the team outgrew Graves and the same qualities which were previously useful, such as an aggressiveness to join the rush, became a liability as Toews, Girard and Byram pushed him down to third pairing. That meant the team needed a more reliable stay at home guy which at this point would be some like Murray.

Not sure the team is at the same point with Girard. Yes, he is one great PMD and I also believe he is misperceived as a #1. I'm not a stat hound but I can see your point about skewed analytics.

After J. Toews scored his goal while being covered by Girard, I saw the same defensive scheme with Girard covering down low. So the issue is either how Girard is being used so as to maximize his weakness or a defensive failure on his part, either being too small and outmuscled which is just a function of his size - you take the good (PMD) with the bad. If that's the case and he has to cover down low, then at a minimum he should have lifted Toews' stick. That failure bodes ill for the POs. You know other teams and especially the VGK will try to exploit that again. I had hoped someone like EJ or D. Toews would be fulfilling that net front presence instead.

When I read about potentially acquiring Chychrun, my reaction was WTF? We need a 3C or at least top 6 forward or maybe a backup 3D. But I can now see the utility in such a move. Call me a size queen but I don't want the team to get pushed around in the POs.

I recall when Girard was first acquired and what a huge difference it was. And he fits JB's scheme. That said, I wonder if the team has outgrown him in terms of reaching that next level of PO performance? I'm fine with keeping Girard because he's undervalued on the market. However, I do see him as a potentially moveable prime asset if the team can pick up someone else that fills a position of greater need.

In fairness to Girard, the fan base's expectations have changed. When he arrived here, we were thrilled for the team to just make the POs. Now, we'll be calling to burn down the organization if they fail to make it to/through the 2nd round.

The question is whether Girard is the best asset we could acquire for a position of need given his value. That's one thing Sakic has been scrupulous about since Roy left until he got caught in the situation with Kuemper. However, I think that was more a situation of circumstance forced on him given his priorities in signing Makar and Landeskog first and Anderson's bailing on him. No GM will always have circumstances go their way.

What's your take on keeping Girard?

There's a lot of scapegoating for the Vegas series. Going into the playoffs the perception of strengths vs weaknesses was that Vegas lacked an elite top line, which the Avs have. But Vegas compensated with depth. Once Kadri was lost for the playoffs, wouldn't that tilt things in Vegas' favor? And wouldn't that also lead to an increase in scenarios that might target Girard?

How many teams are built like Vegas? Are we creating monsters that might not exist with matchups for Girard?

 

[flyfysher]

There's a lot of scapegoating for the Vegas series. Going into the playoffs the perception of strengths vs weaknesses was that Vegas lacked an elite top line, which the Avs have. But Vegas compensated with depth. Once Kadri was lost for the playoffs, wouldn't that tilt things in Vegas' favor? And wouldn't that also lead to an increase in scenarios that might target Girard?

How many teams are built like Vegas? Are we creating monsters that might not exist with matchups for Girard?

There were multiple failures in the VGK series. I still think if the Avs had Kadri then they would have won that series. But if that goal by J. Toews last night didn't confirm for and convince you that there's an issue with Girard's lack of physicality then I have no idea what evidence would.

 

[Balthazar]

Not sure the team is at the same point with Girard. Yes, he is one great PMD and I also believe he is misperceived as a #1.

I think he'd be a tremendous first pairing dman next to the right partner: a big RHD who can keep up.

 

[Pokecheque]

Do we really think G is a #1? It’s pretty obvious who the top defender on this team is at this point.

Girard is an excellent #3 defenseman. The top four of this team, in those rare moments that everyone is healthy, is possibly the best in the league. It most certainly boasts the best skating.

 

[dahrougem2]

I think Tampa Bay quite easily has the best top-4 in the league with Hedman/McDonagh/Cernak/Sergachev but the Avs aren't far behind. Tampa's defensemen get the edge for me because they're all big and physical while having great mobility and puck work.

 

[AvsFan29]

Girard is an excellent #3 defenseman. The top four of this team, in those rare moments that everyone is healthy, is possibly the best in the league. It most certainly boasts the best skating.

I'd be happy to trade him for Nylander. He would solidify the top 6

 

[Balthazar]

I think Tampa Bay quite easily has the best top-4 in the league with Hedman/McDonagh/Cernak/Sergachev but the Avs aren't far behind. Tampa's defensemen get the edge for me because they're all big and physical while having great mobility and puck work.

I like the Avs' top 4 better. No homerism.

 

[Pierce Hawthorne]

I think Tampa Bay quite easily has the best top-4 in the league with Hedman/McDonagh/Cernak/Sergachev but the Avs aren't far behind. Tampa's defensemen get the edge for me because they're all big and physical while having great mobility and puck work.

Hard disagree. Especially if we assume our Top 4D to be Makar/Toews/Girard/Byram, I like our 4 guys a lot better.


Makar and Toews is the best pairing in the league right now and they're the difference IMO over the Tampa group.



Now, if you're replacing Byram with EJ, its closer.

 

[dahrougem2]

Hard disagree. Especially if we assume our Top 4D to be Makar/Toews/Girard/Byram, I like our 4 guys a lot better.


Makar and Toews is the best pairing in the league right now and they're the difference IMO over the Tampa group.



Now, if you're replacing Byram with EJ, its closer.

For me,

Hedman = Makar
McDonagh = Toews
Cernak > Girard
Sergachev = Byram

Cernak over Girard is what puts them above us for me.

 

[Balthazar]

For me,

Hedman = Makar
McDonagh = Toews
Cernak > Girard
Sergachev = Byram

Cernak over Girard is what puts them above us for me.

Hedman = Makar
Toews >>> McDonagh
Byram >= Sergachev (should be >>>> soon)
Cernak and Girard is close, two completely different defensemen.

 

[dahrougem2]

Hedman = Makar
Toews >>> McDonagh
Byram >= Sergachev (should be >>>> soon)
Cernak and Girard is close, two completely different defensemen.

I think McDonagh is being severely underrated here. He's not nearly what he used to be offensively but boy has he become one of the best defenders in the league. I love Toews but McDonagh has proven over the last couple of Stanley Cup runs he can play as basically a 2nd #1 alongside Hedman.

 

[Alienblood]

I like the Avs' top 4 better. No homerism.

Yeah me too by quite a bit

 

[Pierce Hawthorne]

I think McDonagh is being severely underrated here. He's not nearly what he used to be offensively but boy has he become one of the best defenders in the league. I love Toews but McDonagh has proven over the last couple of Stanley Cup runs he can play as basically a 2nd #1 alongside Hedman.

Yeah nah, Toews is flat out better at everything.

 

[dahrougem2]

Yeah nah, Toews is flat out better at everything.

Disagree

 

[Foppa2118]

@Foppa2118

Sorry in advance for the length of the post.

Looking at players like Graves and Girard, I think both were the right players for the team at the time they were acquired. In Graves' case though, I felt the team outgrew him. By that I mean when Graves first came up, he had a knack for sometimes finding himself in the right spot to break up plays and it was refreshing that he could play up with someone like Makar. Turns out, Makar could carry a sloth as a partner and his pairing would still shine. JK. But the team outgrew Graves and the same qualities which were previously useful, such as an aggressiveness to join the rush, became a liability as Toews, Girard and Byram pushed him down to third pairing. That meant the team needed a more reliable stay at home guy which at this point would be some like Murray.

Not sure the team is at the same point with Girard. Yes, he is one great PMD and I also believe he is misperceived as a #1. I'm not a stat hound but I can see your point about skewed analytics.

After J. Toews scored his goal while being covered by Girard, I saw the same defensive scheme with Girard covering down low. So the issue is either how Girard is being used so as to maximize his weakness or a defensive failure on his part, either being too small and outmuscled which is just a function of his size - you take the good (PMD) with the bad. If that's the case and he has to cover down low, then at a minimum he should have lifted Toews' stick. That failure bodes ill for the POs. You know other teams and especially the VGK will try to exploit that again. I had hoped someone like EJ or D. Toews would be fulfilling that net front presence instead.

When I read about potentially acquiring Chychrun, my reaction was WTF? We need a 3C or at least top 6 forward or maybe a backup 3D. But I can now see the utility in such a move. Call me a size queen but I don't want the team to get pushed around in the POs.

I recall when Girard was first acquired and what a huge difference it was. And he fits JB's scheme. That said, I wonder if the team has outgrown him in terms of reaching that next level of PO performance? I'm fine with keeping Girard because he's undervalued on the market. However, I do see him as a potentially moveable prime asset if the team can pick up someone else that fills a position of greater need.

In fairness to Girard, the fan base's expectations have changed. When he arrived here, we were thrilled for the team to just make the POs. Now, we'll be calling to burn down the organization if they fail to make it to/through the 2nd round.

The question is whether Girard is the best asset we could acquire for a position of need given his value. That's one thing Sakic has been scrupulous about since Roy left until he got caught in the situation with Kuemper. However, I think that was more a situation of circumstance forced on him given his priorities in signing Makar and Landeskog first and Anderson's bailing on him. No GM will always have circumstances go their way.

What's your take on keeping Girard?

With Girard, he's a great PMD, and a very good fit on this Avs teams with their up tempo style and emphasis on the defense jumping into and starting rushes. He has problems though defensively which I've mentioned for a few years now. Mostly due to his lack of size/strength/reach. Unfortuantely there's not much he can do about that.

When he was first brought in, he was a much needed presence on the back end. But since then, they've added Makar, Toews, and Byram. Makar is better on the breakout than G and Byram is just as good, except he chooses to pass more than skate the puck out. Toews is quite good himself but probably a notch below. But all three are better defensively, which makes them better overall IMO which makes G a bit redundant, especially since he's much more one dimensional than than the others.

So becuase of that, I think the team ideally would be better suited to adding a bigger more physical D man like Chychrun or someone else to make the blue line more multi dimensional, and better suited to the playoffs where the games are close, the physicality picks up, and one or two defensive breakdowns can be the difference in a series.

However, I'm not sure Sakic or Bednar view the defense this way. I believe G might have been available in a trade for Eichel, but I'm not sure Sakic would look to move him for a lesser player. He still makes the Avs better in a lot of ways, so this isn't necessarily a bad thing. What might make it an issue is if EJ gets injured again. Then the need for that bigger more physical D man becomes a MUCH bigger need, and there's a decent chance EJ might get injured again at some point.

Regarding Graves, he just is what he is. He's quite fine as a third pairing D man. But he wasn't used that way in Colorado. That was the issue. It was a big part of why they lost against Vegas and since he was paired with Girard a lot in that series, he wasn't able to make up for G's limitations to the extent that someone like EJ does for Girard.

Either way, if Sakic does keep G, he'll probably have to decided whether to keep Toews or Girard in a couple years when Toews becomes a UFA anyway. So I could see Joe just standing pat, not sure whether he wants to reshape the D and trade Girard or not, until he's force to make a decision with Toews becoming a UFA. That's kind of Joe's MO anyway.

 

[flyfysher]

With Girard, he's a great PMD, and a very good fit on this Avs teams with their up tempo style and emphasis on the defense jumping into and starting rushes. He has problems though defensively which I've mentioned for a few years now. Mostly due to his lack of size/strength/reach. Unfortuantely there's not much he can do about that.

When he was first brought in, he was a much needed presence on the back end. But since then, they've added Makar, Toews, and Byram. Makar is better on the breakout than G and Byram is just as good, except he chooses to pass more than skate the puck out. Toews is quite good himself but probably a notch below. But all three are better defensively, which makes them better overall IMO which makes G a bit redundant, especially since he's much more one dimensional than than the others.

So becuase of that, I think the team ideally would be better suited to adding a bigger more physical D man like Chychrun or someone else to make the blue line more multi dimensional, and better suited to the playoffs where the games are close, the physicality picks up, and one or two defensive breakdowns can be the difference in a series.

However, I'm not sure Sakic or Bednar view the defense this way. I believe G might have been available in a trade for Eichel, but I'm not sure Sakic would look to move him for a lesser player. He still makes the Avs better in a lot of ways, so this isn't necessarily a bad thing. What might make it an issue is if EJ gets injured again. Then the need for that bigger more physical D man becomes a MUCH bigger need, and there's a decent chance EJ might get injured again at some point.

Regarding Graves, he just is what he is. He's quite fine as a third pairing D man. But he wasn't used that way in Colorado. That was the issue. It was a big part of why they lost against Vegas and since he was paired with Girard a lot in that series, he wasn't able to make up for G's limitations to the extent that someone like EJ does for Girard.

Either way, if Sakic does keep G, he'll probably have to decided whether to keep Toews or Girard in a couple years when Toews becomes a UFA anyway. So I could see Joe just standing pat, not sure whether he wants to reshape the D and trade Girard or not, until he's force to make a decision with Toews becoming a UFA. That's kind of Joe's MO anyway.

Thanks. Yeah agree. Another point is that Barron may make the team next year.

 

[The Abusement Park]

Yeah nah, Toews is flat out better at everything.

Nah he's not as physical. But that's the only thing McDonagh has over Toews.

 

[Foppa2118]

McDonough is a very different type of defenseman than Toews.

McDonagh is that gritty hard nosed D man with underrated skill. Toews is more that cerebral, slick, very poised D man that's solid defensively. To me Toews is better with the puck and much better with his production offensively, and McDonagh is better defensively in the traditional defensive sense. Not the analytical/keep the puck out of the D zone sense.

McDonagh made his name for himself though like a lot of D men like him, in the playoffs. That's where the real comparison should be resolved IMO. If Toews has another deep run with a big impact on his team's success, he's definitely be the better defenseman in my book, especially with McDonagh aging.

 

[dahrougem2]

Obviously Toews is better offensively right now but let's not forget for several seasons Ryan McDonagh was a 40+ point defensemen for both New York and Tampa Bay. Obviously this is Toews' coming out party but I am fairly certain this is the outlier season for him offensively.

 

[the_fan]

For me,

Hedman = Makar
McDonagh = Toews
Cernak > Girard
Sergachev = Byram

Cernak over Girard is what puts them above us for me.

Wrong...

Not being a homer, but you can argue that today Makar is better than Hedman

Toews is definitely better than McDonagh

Cernak vs Girard you're probably right. Cernak brings more to the table, shot blocking, physicality etc... although Girard brings more offense

I'd take Byram over Sergachev for sure

Edit: I'm going by comparison today not career because career wise Hedman has obviously done more than Makar and McDonagh has done more than Toews, but today it's definitely Toews over McDonagh, and give me Makar over Hedman

 

[The Abusement Park]

Obviously Toews is better offensively right now but let's not forget for several seasons Ryan McDonagh was a 40+ point defensemen for both New York and Tampa Bay. Obviously this is Toews' coming out party but I am fairly certain this is the outlier season for him offensively.

He's certainly not a 90pt dman. But I mean on the Avs he's probably a 50-60pt guy consistently. So even if McDonagh is better defensively, which if he is it's not by much, it doesn't make up for the gaps everywhere else.

 

[RoyIsALegend]

For me,

Hedman = Makar
McDonagh = Toews
Cernak > Girard
Sergachev = Byram

Cernak over Girard is what puts them above us for me.

All I know is that if I’m trying to win a Game 7 in the Stanley Cup Finals and I have those 8 defensemen on my bench, I’m putting Hedman-McDonagh out every time.

They are the two best DEFENSEmen there.