2017-2018 Blues Discussion Thread Part Three

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MortiestOfMortys

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I think I just fundamentally disagree that drafts are won in the later rounds if you're defining that as 5+. Finding a Parayko at pick 86 is a massive win for the scouting staff. If you re-do the 2012 draft today, he goes top 10 without question and likely top 5. The jury is still out on Schmaltz but even if he washes out, you're still talking about getting a top talent from the draft in the 3rd round. I don't think it matters that we picked him in the 3rd and not the 5th. Simply by getting our 2nd best D man without a top 10 pick, 2012 is a win for the scouting staff IMO. Husso is a top 15 goalie prospect (and tons of people have him in the top 10) and we plucked him with pick 94. Again, I don't think it matters that we got him in the early 4th instead of the mid 6th. Combine that pick with Fabbri and Blais in the 6th round and that's a fantastic draft by our scouting staff for 2014. In 2013, we only had 1 pick after round 4, so I'm not going to blame the scouts for not going 1 for 1 on a 6th rounder.

I think the lack of youth infusion is much more a result of having only one 1st round pick in a 3 year span and only 2 in a 5 year span. The fact that one of those two 1st rounders has missed the last season and a half due to injury is just salt in the wound. I think they have been about average in the middle/late rounds and well above average in the 2nd round. A 2nd rounder has about a 20-25% chance of becoming an NHL regular and around a 10% chance of becoming a top 6 F or top 4 D man. With our eight 2nd rounders from 2011-2014, we got a top 4 D men in Ed, an NHL regular in Jaskin, an NHL regular in Barbie (jury is still out on whether he can be a legit 3rd line player or eventual middle 6 guy) and Carrier is somewhere between fringe guy and NHL regular. Expand that to 2015 and you would include DUnn, who is certainly looking like he will be atop 4 D man in this league. That's a damn good hit rate in the 2nd round.

We don't really have much to go on with 1st rounders. We crushed the 2010 draft with Schwartz and Tarasenko and it is clear that B Armstrong's voice was a big factor in making the trade to draft both instead of just one. Schmaltz was a dud, Fabbri was good talent evaluation and it's too early in the Thompson/Kyrou/Thomas/Kostin wave to make any concrete assessments. That's just an absurdly low sample size and the lack of a bigger sample size is the reason we haven't had adequate youth stepping in IMO.

All percentages come from this article:

Cullen: Updated NHL Draft Pick Values, Observations

For me, “later in the draft” starts with 4th rounders, which encompasses the Husso pick.

The goal of the draft is to get guys to be top players and not have to pay anything for them, asset-wise. 1st rounders are supposed to be top players, you don’t really get credit for that imo. It’s an expectation. The odds are lower for the 2nd and 3rd round, but the expectation should still be that you’re getting NHL players there. Further down the draft, it’s a lot harder to do, and finding talent that nobody else saw gets you cred.

Between 2011-2013, we had 6 2nd rounders, and only one is contributing in a top role today: Edmundson. I like Jaskin and think he’s better than people give him credit for in his role, but he was not - as I predicted - the heir apparent to Berglund. To get Carrier and Vannelli, we gave up Ben Bishop, a 3rd round pick, and two 4th rounders. That’s a ton of value going out for essentially no return. Yes I realize he was included in the Miller trade, no I don’t think that disproves the point I’m making. The fact that we only got *one* other NHL player out of those 3 years (Parayko) has made it hard to absorb those misses.

2014 was obviously a huge turnaround, and I like the odds of Fabbri, Barbashev, Walman, Husso, and Blais all contributing in some way in the future. For that, you can forgive misses on Poganski, Descheneau, Yakimowicz and Tschantz. With potentially 5 players coming out of that draft, the misses don’t matter so much.

2015 we went back to probably only getting one, maaaybe 2 NHL players on this team, depending on how Musil continues to develop. Mikkola is an unknown quantity until he comes over full time, he might as well be Lehtera until he does. It wasn’t anybody’s fault that Opilka has been injured as much as he has.

The next year, we got Thompson, Kyrou, Fitzpatrick, Kaspick, and Stevens. At worst, we’ll see two of them, but potentially all 5 can be valuable in their own right.

Then last year, we got Thomas and Kostin. The other 4 are all long-shots, but they were also all late picks so the “expectation” is lower there. Still, the reason you make a gamble of moving early picks is because you hope you make a big splash in the later rounds. But then we went out and took... Bourque? I don’t get it.

All I’m saying here guys is that our drafting hasn’t filled in our needs as fast as we’re developing needs. In the first 3 years of Barmy’s tenure, weve averaged 1 player per draft (depending on what happens with Schmaltz, up to 1.3). Since then, we have the *potential* to jump up to 3.25 per year, in the absolute best case scenario, but it’ll likely be lower than that. And it’ll take time for these guys to develop, just as a product of their age. To be successful at drafting, my personal belief is you need to add at least two every year to remain competitive and keep everything stocked. Because we didn’t do that in the early 2010s after Schwartz/Tarasenko, were paying for it now by not having those extra bodies contributing. By going out and getting Sanford (2013), Soshkinov (2015) and Foley (2015), it looks to me like we’re conscious of that, and trying to fill in those holes now. We didn’t draft them, so we had to go trade for the assets we would have had if we did.

But remember what I said at the very beginning of this post: the goal is to get guys for free. By not doing that, we had to move assets to get what we need.

Am I encouraged by where we’re going? Yes, more or less, but just getting the first rounders right doesn’t get you cookies, you gotta do more than that. *Especially* if you don’t have a first rounder. Two a year, minimum, that’s what we should be aiming for. It looks like we’re on the right track, but we’ll see if/when they get here.
 
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Brian39

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For me, “later in the draft” starts with 4th rounders, which encompasses the Husso pick.

The goal of the draft is to get guys to be top players and not have to pay anything for them, asset-wise. 1st rounders are supposed to be top players, you don’t really get credit for that imo. It’s an expectation. The odds are lower for the 2nd and 3rd round, but the expectation should still be that you’re getting NHL players there. Further down the draft, it’s a lot harder to do, and finding talent that nobody else saw gets you cred.

Between 2011-2013, we had 6 2nd rounders, and only one is contributing in a top role today: Edmundson. I like Jaskin and think he’s better than people give him credit for in his role, but he was not - as I predicted - the heir apparent to Berglund. To get Carrier and Vannelli, we gave up Ben Bishop, a 3rd round pick, and two 4th rounders. That’s a ton of value going out for essentially no return. Yes I realize he was included in the Miller trade, no I don’t think that disproves the point I’m making. The fact that we only got *one* other NHL player out of those 3 years (Parayko) has made it hard to absorb those misses.

2014 was obviously a huge turnaround, and I like the odds of Fabbri, Barbashev, Walman, Husso, and Blais all contributing in some way in the future. For that, you can forgive misses on Poganski, Descheneau, Yakimowicz and Tschantz. With potentially 5 players coming out of that draft, the misses don’t matter so much.

2015 we went back to probably only getting one, maaaybe 2 NHL players on this team, depending on how Musil continues to develop. Mikkola is an unknown quantity until he comes over full time, he might as well be Lehtera until he does. It wasn’t anybody’s fault that Opilka has been injured as much as he has.

The next year, we got Thompson, Kyrou, Fitzpatrick, Kaspick, and Stevens. At worst, we’ll see two of them, but potentially all 5 can be valuable in their own right.

Then last year, we got Thomas and Kostin. The other 4 are all long-shots, but they were also all late picks so the “expectation” is lower there. Still, the reason you make a gamble of moving early picks is because you hope you make a big splash in the later rounds. But then we went out and took... Bourque? I don’t get it.

All I’m saying here guys is that our drafting hasn’t filled in our needs as fast as we’re developing needs. In the first 3 years of Barmy’s tenure, weve averaged 1 player per draft (depending on what happens with Schmaltz, up to 1.3). Since then, we have the *potential* to jump up to 3.25 per year, in the absolute best case scenario, but it’ll likely be lower than that. And it’ll take time for these guys to develop, just as a product of their age. To be successful at drafting, my personal belief is you need to add at least two every year to remain competitive and keep everything stocked. Because we didn’t do that in the early 2010s after Schwartz/Tarasenko, were paying for it now by not having those extra bodies contributing. By going out and getting Sanford (2013), Soshkinov (2015) and Foley (2015), it looks to me like we’re conscious of that, and trying to fill in those holes now. We didn’t draft them, so we had to go trade for the assets we would have had if we did.

But remember what I said at the very beginning of this post: the goal is to get guys for free. By not doing that, we had to move assets to get what we need.

Am I encouraged by where we’re going? Yes, more or less, but just getting the first rounders right doesn’t get you cookies, you gotta do more than that. *Especially* if you don’t have a first rounder. Two a year, minimum, that’s what we should be aiming for. It looks like we’re on the right track, but we’ll see if/when they get here.

Again, I think we just have completely different expectations. You're expectation is that you should be getting NHL players in the 2nd and 3rd round on a consistent basis, but the data suggests that you have about a 1 in 4 shot of getting an NHL player and a 10% chance of getting a guy who contributes in a top role. And that's over their career, not just by their early/mid 20s. Getting a top role contributor, a very good bottom 6 contributor and another NHL player (used as an asset in a trade) out of six 2nd rounders is significantly better than average for 2nd round drafting.

I think that offsets going 1 for 13 in rounds 3-7 with the 1 being an absolute gem of a find. For reference, the odds of getting a top 9 F or top 6 D in the 3rd round are about 10-15% and that drops to about 5-8% after pick 100. 1 for 13 really isn't out of line with expectations since 10 of those picks were outside the top 100. I don't think the performance in rounds 3-7 was special, but it is right at average statistically. Combined with exceeding expectations in the 2nd round, I think are scouts did a good job with their limited resources.

You say that you need to get two a year to be competitive and then gloss over the fact that we only had one total 1st round pick in that stretch (which have an exceedingly good chance to turn into NHL contributors as you elude to). Assuming Schmaltz and Lindbohm don't pan out, 4 assets outside the 1st round in those 3 years is dead in line with your formula for success from the scouting department. If they had those 2 extra 1st rounders, there is a very good chance they both become serviceable NHL players and we're right there at your 2 per draft criteria (not to mention that they only had 4 total picks in 2013). That's why I think the scouting department doesn't deserve the blame. The expectation shouldn't be that they do better in later rounds because their 1st round chances were taken away. If they had all of the 1st round picks, we'd likely be right at that '2 per draft' criteria. I think the scouting department did well in these years given the constraints placed on the by win-now trades. I wouldn't say they were one of the best scouting departments in that stretch, but I'd put their performance in rounds 2-7 at or slightly above the league average.

As to the second bolded, my only nitpick is that I don't think it is fair to say you're getting them for free with a draft pick but referring to that draft pick as an asset cost in a trade. We got Soshnikov for a 4th round pick. Had we drafted a player with that pick instead of trading it, that drafted player would have cost us a 4th round pick rather than being obtained for free. I like the Foley and Soshnikov acquisitions a lot to address the hole we create by doing a mini-win-now window a few years ago. Soshnikov is the type of player you hope a 4th round pick eventually becomes and I would have been happy with the Stastny trade for just the 1st. The inclusion of Foley feels a bit like house money to me and It think he has a decent chance of being an NHL player in some capacity. You don't draft players for free. You spend a pick on them and using that pick means you forego trading it for established NHL talent.
 

Bluesnatic27

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This actually goes back prior to BArmstrong. Typically you need to average 2-3 legit players per draft to build and maintain your roster.

I need to see some stats backing that claim up, because at face value, that’s ridiculously unrealistic.
 

Blueston

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I need to see some stats backing that claim up, because at face value, that’s ridiculously unrealistic.
I didn't say stars, I said legit players. Guys like Jaskin or (not a Blues pick) Bortuzzo. This is simple math. You dress 20 players. If average career is 10 years, you would need to replace 2 per year. If average is 5 years, you need to replace 4. So realistically, if you don't produce 2 players per year you are behind the curve.
 

Evocable Manager

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I didn't say stars, I said legit players. Guys like Jaskin or (not a Blues pick) Bortuzzo. This is simple math. You dress 20 players. If average career is 10 years, you would need to replace 2 per year. If average is 5 years, you need to replace 4. So realistically, if you don't produce 2 players per year you are behind the curve.
But guys like Jaskin and Bortuzzo can be signed in UFA for approximately 1M (more than likely less) in every offseason. These guys are 4th line and depth defenseman. Your middle six, top six, top four and core players are a different story. Quality depth can be found in UFA, many under the radar guys.
 

carter333167

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I don’t think “filler” players are the issue. They are easy enough to find.

Our issue is arming BA with enough high picks to pluck a few elites.

Thank goodness by the way that the scouts found a bargain in Parayko. Also probably in Kyrou.
 

Blueston

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But guys like Jaskin and Bortuzzo can be signed in UFA for approximately 1M (more than likely less) in every offseason. These guys are 4th line and depth defenseman. Your middle six, top six, top four and core players are a different story. Quality depth can be found in UFA, many under the radar guys.
Entry level contracts are biggest bargain in league. In cap era, you need cheap players to be able to afford to spend on stars. And young players who are NHLers at young age are more likely to develop into better players than are low cost veterans who you sign as roster filler. Or used as trade bait.

Look at teams like Tampa and Nashville and see how many NHLers they produce. Sure, you can fill roster holes without drafting well, but you are putting yourself at real disadvantage.
 

PiggySmalls

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Here is Sportnet's Graphics on probabilities of drafted prospects making it to the NHL and having success. Also linked is TSN's article, their table I couldn't copy in here.

Statistically Speaking: NHL Draft Pick Value - Article - TSN

chart51.jpg

chart22.jpg

chart4.jpg


Analyzing the value of NHL draft picks - Sportsnet.ca

Point of the charts is to reflect how hard it is to find NHL'ers. Analytics and how they apply to prospects have came a long way. The relative low success rate is why NHL teams want the draft age moved up to 19, so it gives teams better data to base their picks on.
 

Evocable Manager

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Entry level contracts are biggest bargain in league. In cap era, you need cheap players to be able to afford to spend on stars. And young players who are NHLers at young age are more likely to develop into better players than are low cost veterans who you sign as roster filler. Or used as trade bait.

Look at teams like Tampa and Nashville and see how many NHLers they produce. Sure, you can fill roster holes without drafting well, but you are putting yourself at real disadvantage.
I'd like to think it's more so the guys who you plug in between your core and depth players.

For example, let's say our drafting was better in 2012. Instead of Kirker and MacEachern, we picked Athanasiou and Hudon. These are two guys we could legitimately plug into our top nine and still expect a strong team. Can you think of two expensive top nine forwards whose money could be better allocated? I can.

If we have a guy making 750k on an ELC and he replaces Upshall, we're not saving much.
 

Blueston

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I'd like to think it's more so the guys who you plug in between your core and depth players.

For example, let's say our drafting was better in 2012. Instead of Kirker and MacEachern, we picked Athanasiou and Hudon. These are two guys we could legitimately plug into our top nine and still expect a strong team. Can you think of two expensive top nine forwards whose money could be better allocated? I can.

If we have a guy making 750k on an ELC and he replaces Upshall, we're not saving much.
To be clear, I am not suggesting would rather have Jaskin than someone like Saad who went 2 picks later. While 22 year old 4th liners can sometimes become solid 3rd liners, 30-something year old 4th liners tend to be on downward slide. Nonetheless, I didn't mean to suggest that we should be happy drafting 4th liners.
 

TK 421

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I can't believe there are people here criticizing our amateur scouting. During Bill Armstrong's tenure(2011-2017) he hasn't had a 1st rd pick in 3 of his 7 drafts (2011, 2013, 2015) and yet...we've rebuilt our entire blueline in a very successful manner with picks outside the 1st rd (Edmundson@46th, Parayko@86th, Dunn@56th).

Judging the amateur scouts regarding our forward picks is premature unless you're nitpicking. Most of our top forward prospects were picked 2014-2017. It sucks that Fabbri has been out so long and it's unfortunate that other help hasn't arrived sooner but Fabbri, Thomas, Kyrou, Thompson and Kostin will all either be with the Blues or San Antonio next year. Soshnikov and Foley being picked up in trades obviously further bolsters what we already drafted. I think we're just a season off from this looking like an entirely positive situation.
 

TruBlu

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That is why I'm glad a third of this forum is not our GM. I always chalk it up to GDT roller coaster emotion when people make comments about putting him on waivers and such. He'd be picked up in a heartbeat. This has without a doubt been his worst season so far, but the team itself was the worst we've seen in several years so I think that probably factors into that. Hopefully he figures it out soon and can be more consistent, but he's still very young for goalie standards.
 

Weiss1604

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I can't believe there are people here criticizing our amateur scouting. During Bill Armstrong's tenure(2011-2017) he hasn't had a 1st rd pick in 3 of his 7 drafts (2011, 2013, 2015) and yet...we've rebuilt our entire blueline in a very successful manner with picks outside the 1st rd (Edmundson@46th, Parayko@86th, Dunn@56th).

Judging the amateur scouts regarding our forward picks is premature unless you're nitpicking. Most of our top forward prospects were picked 2014-2017. It sucks that Fabbri has been out so long and it's unfortunate that other help hasn't arrived sooner but Fabbri, Thomas, Kyrou, Thompson and Kostin will all either be with the Blues or San Antonio next year. Soshnikov and Foley being picked up in trades obviously further bolsters what we already drafted. I think we're just a season off from this looking like an entirely positive situation.
Excellent post & couldn't agree more .
 

PiggySmalls

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Which begs the question - if this is supposed to be a private story, is there more to the story since having triplets is clearly public now?

I'm guessing after losing their previous child due to miscarriage, they prefer to keep quieter this time.
 

tfriede2

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I'm guessing after losing their previous child due to miscarriage, they prefer to keep quieter this time.

I understand them not wanting to talk about it further, that's makes perfect sense. It's probably just the way JR worded it - you can't keep the fact that they're having triplets private if you just tweeted it. So either there's more to the story that they wish to keep private, or JR should have just confirmed that they're having triplets and that Petro won't comment further. Ah well, I'll respect their wishes and won't speculate further. They're due to have triplets, so that's great.
 

wannabebluesplayer

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Which begs the question - if this is supposed to be a private story, is there more to the story since having triplets is clearly public now?

Multiples are a common occurrence if there was any fertility assistance like IVF or IUI. My wife and I had a 33% chance of twins and a 20 something % chance of triplets when we did Invitro Fertilization. I'm very happy this happened for him as I know from experience how painful miscarriages can be emotionally, and for the women, sometimes physically.
 

tfriede2

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Multiples are a common occurrence if there was any fertility assistance like IVF or IUI. My wife and I had a 33% chance of twins and a 20 something % chance of triplets when we did Invitro Fertilization. I'm very happy this happened for him as I know from experience how painful miscarriages can be emotionally, and for the women, sometimes physically.

Yep, I know.
 

BlueDream

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Aug 30, 2011
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Well, PK Subban did drop that news when he was mic’d up during the skills competition. So either way, people were going to know.
 
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