2016 World Cup of Hockey discussion

[snarktacular]

It's well documented that Slovakia isn't churning out nearly as much talent as they used to. I don't see the relevance to stats from 5 years ago. For whatever reason they've hit a major bump in the development road.

Other than Tatar I don't see one promising young player for them. I realize Chara and Hossa (Gaborik too) have had great careers but they are closing in on 40 by the time 2016 rolls around. So I'd be extremely surprised if they could be competitive if they had their own team. They'd be icing guys that are career European league players against NHL all stars. At least with Team Europe they'll be able to put an entire team of NHL players out there making it way more fun to watch

Part of the reason why the "lesser" European teams do better than expected on paper is because they often play together. And in the Olympics and World Championships, they form the team ahead of time and do some practices etc to form a team.

Will there be some kind of warmup/practice time? If not then Team Europe will be at a disadvantage.

But in the end there couldn't be more esoteric teams because I think this is only for NHLers (it seems like a venture between the NHL NHLPA, to keep the IIHF out of it). Are there enough ____ players to fill all positions? Answer is probably no.

 

[Sojourn]

It's well documented that Slovakia isn't churning out nearly as much talent as they used to. I don't see the relevance to stats from 5 years ago. For whatever reason they've hit a major bump in the development road.

Other than Tatar I don't see one promising young player for them. I realize Chara and Hossa (Gaborik too) have had great careers but they are closing in on 40 by the time 2016 rolls around. So I'd be extremely surprised if they could be competitive if they had their own team. They'd be icing guys that are career European league players against NHL all stars. At least with Team Europe they'll be able to put an entire team of NHL players out there making it way more fun to watch

None of that supports your claim that Slovakia and Switzerland get their ***** handed to them.

Yes, on an individual level they fall short, but you made an incorrect assertion that they fail as teams.

In fact, the opposite is true. They do very well as teams. They exceed all expectations, and manage to be competitive despite lacking the individual talent of the best teams. But none of that points to them being an embarrassment. Say what you like, but your point falls short.

 

[AngelDuck]

Part of the reason why the "lesser" European teams do better than expected on paper is because they often play together. And in the Olympics and World Championships, they form the team ahead of time and do some practices etc to form a team.

Will there be some kind of warmup/practice time? If not then Team Europe will be at a disadvantage.

But in the end there couldn't be more esoteric teams because I think this is only for NHLers (it seems like a venture between the NHL NHLPA, to keep the IIHF out of it). Are there enough ____ players to fill all positions? Answer is probably no.

Practice/warmup time is not more important than talent. I'd rather bring 15 NHL players that have never played together than 4 NHL players and the rest of the team made up of Euro leaguers who have played together their whole lives.

That's just bringing a knife to a gun fight

 

[AngelDuck]

None of that supports your claim that Slovakia and Switzerland get their ***** handed to them.

Yes, on an individual level they fall short, but you made an incorrect assertion that they fail as teams.

In fact, the opposite is true. They do very well as teams. They exceed all expectations, and manage to be competitive despite lacking the individual talent of the best teams. But none of that points to them being an embarrassment. Say what you like, but your point falls short.

They lose almost every time they play one of the big 4 with the exception of once or twice when Chara and Hossa and Gaborik were in their prime...Does that work better for you?

 

[Sojourn]

They lose almost every time they play one of the big 4 with the exception of once or twice when Chara and Hossa and Gaborik were in their prime...Does that work better for you?

Sure, but they are a less talented team. On paper, they should lose. You made some ridiculous assertion that they can't compete at all. They do, and they win sometimes too.

 

[Sojourn]

Practice/warmup time is not more important than talent. I'd rather bring 15 NHL players that have never played together than 4 NHL players and the rest of the team made up of Euro leaguers who have played together their whole lives.

That's just bringing a knife to a gun fight

So I guess we're just going to forget the times the guy bringing the knife has won, huh? Its a lot closer than you're suggesting. Practice has beaten talent many times, and considering the difference in talent, I think that says something.

 

[Elvs]

They lose almost every time they play one of the big 4 with the exception of once or twice when Chara and Hossa and Gaborik were in their prime...Does that work better for you?

The big 4 wins most of the time against everyone else, thats why they are the big 4. Although I'm not sure what teams those are... Does it include USA or Finland? Because one is better on paper and the other has more success. Slovakia on paper had a much better team in 2006 than 2010, didn't mean anything in practice. And on paper, Slovakia could ice a better defence than both Finland and the Czechs in Sochi (they would have except Visnovsky couldn't play). Even if they don't have the players they did 10-15 years ago, they still win 1 out of 4 games against the best. That's what you could expect from Buffalo or Arizona against the best NHL-teams.

 

[Paul4587]

Slovakia isn't exactly devoid completely of young talent either. Tatar is awesome. Dano is going to be very good, Jurco also has a lot of potential. Marcinin is looking like an NHL caliber defenseman. Sekera is in his prime right now.

They will have at least 12 NHL players plus Halak in 2016. That along with their overseas talent will be more than enough to be competitive in 2016.

 

[bleuer]

Practice/warmup time is not more important than talent. I'd rather bring 15 NHL players that have never played together than 4 NHL players and the rest of the team made up of Euro leaguers who have played together their whole lives.

That's just bringing a knife to a gun fight

Your argument might be right or wrong, but you miss the most imporant aspect: quality of the players. Doesn't mean anything if they play in the NHL or in a Euro league.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_IIHF_World_Championship_rosters

Switzerland had 2 NHL players, USA and Canada had a full roster of NHL players. We all know how it ended.

"Just" NHL players is not enough anymore. Maybe 10 years ago...now you need players that play major roles in their teams. If you take part with a weak "nhl guys" team, you may lose every 2nd game against a Euro Team with players who are actually key players in their team.

 

[snarktacular]

Practice/warmup time is not more important than talent. I'd rather bring 15 NHL players that have never played together than 4 NHL players and the rest of the team made up of Euro leaguers who have played together their whole lives.

That's just bringing a knife to a gun fight

For the Olympics you're wrong. NHL players are the best at playing NHL hockey, with its style and rink size. But players in European leagues may be better in their styles, with their rink sizes.

But I expect you are right about this World Cup, since it will be filled with NHL players and probably on an NHL rink.

 

[Theridion]

I can appreciate why the format is made the way it is.

I enjoy the NHL Olympic games.

However, I enjoyed the he'll out of the soccer world cup more than any other tournament. They broadcast all the games. They had them playing staggered. It was manageable to watch and clean. You turned on the TV or recorded the match and there were insightful commentaries about each team. No filler or bs.

Olympic coverage is like 10 min of highlights, then 50 minutes of commercials and ads and repeat highlights. And then the next hour is almost identical so new viewers can catch up. It's impossible to see matches of anything end to end.

I rarely watch the actual olymlics, as every time I turn it on, it's some dumb news anchor doing some special interest tea ceremony trying to get me to appreciate some foreign culture. Like seriously... it's whatever the channel with AL Roker and whoever else. And they stand around and talk about stuff in thr studio and point the camera at crowds and wave and say "hey, here we are at the olymlics! Check out foreign location!" I seriously just want to see actual sport.

So I am all for this. A tournament lie the soccer world Cup could be awesome. And I get to turn on the TV and watch commentators talk about hockey, and it would be a awesome to not have generic broadcasters rambling about sports they don't understand or care about.

And it would be awesome if team leftovers dominates. If they get blown up then it's not goina last.

 

[QnebO]

Even the KHL makes more sense than this nonsense. And I strongly dislike the KHL.

KHL has nothing to do with this. It is classic type league without anything stupid like this.

KHL is also awesome.

This tournament.. it's annoying me more than just being uninteresting.. It annoys me because it could be so awesome if it just had the Slovaks and Swiss instead of those two stupid teams. It would be so easy, so logical, it would be no brainer... but STILL they choose this! The stupidity of those who made this decision is unlimited. There is no way this sells better, it's the opposite.. and no one in their right mind wants this over classic international tournament format.

This goes to Spengler cup segment with some luck. Fun to watch, good atmosphere hockey. But not into "very important" segment.

 

[snarktacular]

KHL has nothing to do with this. It is classic type league without anything stupid like this.

KHL is also awesome.

This tournament.. it's annoying me more than just being uninteresting.. It annoys me because it could be so awesome if it just had the Slovaks and Swiss instead of those two stupid teams. It would be so easy, so logical, it would be no brainer... but STILL they choose this! The stupidity of those who made this decision is unlimited. There is no way this sells better, it's the opposite.. and no one in their right mind wants this over classic international tournament format.

This goes to Spengler cup segment with some luck. Fun to watch, good atmosphere hockey. But not into "very important" segment.

Using NHL-only players (which is what I think this will be), could you make a 20 man team with Swiss and Slovaks? I don't think you could.

 

[Paul4587]

Using NHL-only players (which is what I think this will be), could you make a 20 man team with Swiss and Slovaks? I don't think you could.

I don't think you can with the Czechs either. The Finns might be borderline too. Russia certainly wouldn't be icing their best team if it were NHL players only (I'm assuming Kovalchuk, Radulov etc won't be leaving their KHL teams to play in this). If the NHL wants this to be a best on best tournament that holds any kind of value they should not have gimmick teams involved.

 

[AngelDuck]

Kovalchuk will play...the NHL is not going to ban KHL players from playing, that would look bad on them

This is an NHL talent-only tournament -- which is why it will be fun

 

[Opak]

Practice/warmup time is not more important than talent. I'd rather bring 15 NHL players that have never played together than 4 NHL players and the rest of the team made up of Euro leaguers who have played together their whole lives.

That's just bringing a knife to a gun fight

If having NHLers is that important, how come Canada and the USA don't win the world championships every year? How come both of those countries have a long history of getting their ***es kicked by "Euro leaguers"? I bet you have no idea what Euro hockey is and what the Euro national teams are capable of. Yet you're running your mouth like you're an expert or something.

Kovalchuk will play...the NHL is not going to ban KHL players from playing, that would look bad on them

This is an NHL talent-only tournament -- which is why it will be fun

If you enjoy watching gimmicky, vaguely hockey-related shenanigans, then sure, you might find this entertaining. I'm sure that the Swiss people and the Slovaks will have a field day rooting for team leftovers. Who cares about those guys anyway, it's all good as long as the NHL wins and all the AngelDucks in America are happy!

 

[Paul4587]

Kovalchuk will play...the NHL is not going to ban KHL players from playing, that would look bad on them

This is an NHL talent-only tournament -- which is why it will be fun

I doubt he leaves his KHL team for what in his mind is likely a meaningless tournament. And there are plenty of NHL calibre Slovaks and Swiss in non NHL leagues.

 

[DucksAreCool]

Obviously, I think the best move would have been to put in Slovakia and Switzerland. However, if they wanted to showcase more NHL stars, I could see this first tournament including just the Big Six, Slovakia and a Europe team like they are going to have minus the Slovak players because there is no time for any type of qualifiers. At least that team could use the EU flag, color scheme and anthem and with Ryder Cup there is something of a history of a European sporting team.

That would not be ideal for me and a bit insulting to Switzerland but I think it would be more palatable as an actual attempt at a legitimate international competition, at least for the first time around. The Young North American team though, for me, absolutely destroys any credibility this tournament had.

 

[AngelDuck]

If having NHLers is that important, how come Canada and the USA don't win the world championships every year? How come both of those countries have a long history of getting their ***es kicked by "Euro leaguers"? I bet you have no idea what Euro hockey is and what the Euro national teams are capable of. Yet you're running your mouth like you're an expert or something.




If you enjoy watching gimmicky, vaguely hockey-related shenanigans, then sure, you might find this entertaining. I'm sure that the Swiss people and the Slovaks will have a field day rooting for team leftovers. Who cares about those guys anyway, it's all good as long as the NHL wins and all the AngelDucks in America are happy!

Woah, what in the **** is your problem? I think it will be a fun tournament, no need to get so butt-hurt over it

For your information the USA and Canada don't win the world championships every year because it takes place when the NHL playoffs are still going on. Also because hockey can sometimes be unpredictable. Also because Sweden/Russia/Finland have many players that are great NHL players

This isn't vaguely hockey related shenanigans...gimmick, maybe. But it will still be fun to watch IMO

 

[Elvs]

For your information the USA and Canada don't win the world championships every year because it takes place when the NHL playoffs are still going on. Also because hockey can sometimes be unpredictable. Also because Sweden/Russia/Finland have many players that are great NHL players.

If anything, the NHL playoffs works in Canada's favour. First of all, they have hundreds of NHL players to choose from. Secondly, most of their players would jump on the oppurtunity to play in the WC, because it's not everyday you get to play for team Canada.

Sweden, for instance, has about 50 of it's best players in the NHL. About 20 of them will still be in the playoffs when the WC starts and of the 30 who remains they are gonna get 20 or so declines. Most of them will decline simply because they are already more or less a lock to make the Olympic team.

Sweden has good players in Europe, as do Switzerland and Slovakia. The main differance between NHL'ers and non NHL'ers is that 'little extra', mainly the ability to take advantage of scoring oppurtunities. Hossa, Gaborik and Tatar could do that for Slovakia and lead them to a bronze in the World Cup with a bit of luck.

A team with Hossa, Gaborik, Tatar, Chara, Sekera and Halak can beat anyone in just one game. With a good system and a bit of luck they can do it two games in a row and compete for a medal. It's not like the rest of their players are so bad they'd constantly be hammered into their own zone. They have a dozen players playing in the NHL on a daily basis, and another dozen who recently played in the NHL. Some of them would have stuck around longer if it wasn't for the KHL.

They'd have a small chance at medal, but they'd have a chance and that should defenitely be enough imo to have a spot in the tournament.

 

[DucksAreCool]

Woah, what in the **** is your problem? I think it will be a fun tournament, no need to get so butt-hurt over it

For your information the USA and Canada don't win the world championships every year because it takes place when the NHL playoffs are still going on. Also because hockey can sometimes be unpredictable. Also because Sweden/Russia/Finland have many players that are great NHL players

This isn't vaguely hockey related shenanigans...gimmick, maybe. But it will still be fun to watch IMO

There's a good reason to be upset by this tournament. The NHL owners are trying to replace the far superior Olympic tournament (an actual tournament to show the best of international hockey) with this gimmick in order to make a few quick bucks.

On it's own, you could possibly argue it's a fairly harmless gimmick tourney with the sole purpose of making NHL owners richer (although supporting such a bald-faced cash grab is not so easy for many to do and could lead to owners attempting further shenanigans after seeing what they can get away with) but it can't be separated form it's context as an attempt to deprive hockey fans of a superior tournament for an inferior one whose profits goes to the NHL only. That is an affront to the game of hockey.

 

[AngelDuck]

I'll leave it at this: if I have offended anyone on here, I'm sorry. That really wasn't my intent at all.

I simply believe it will be more entertaining than the Olympics were...maybe I'm completely wrong and it's going to be a complete joke, but I'm going to give it a fair chance before I claim that I'm not going to watch it.

I understand the frustration and arguments against it. I get why it's upsetting to the Swiss and Slovaks. But I think they'll find that that team Europe team is going to be pretty damn good with guys like Kopitar, Hossa, Josi, Tatar, etc getting to play together...I could see them beating anyone

 

[Opak]

Woah, what in the **** is your problem? I think it will be a fun tournament, no need to get so butt-hurt over it

For your information the USA and Canada don't win the world championships every year because it takes place when the NHL playoffs are still going on. Also because hockey can sometimes be unpredictable. Also because Sweden/Russia/Finland have many players that are great NHL players

This isn't vaguely hockey related shenanigans...gimmick, maybe. But it will still be fun to watch IMO

My problem is your attitude. Your chain of posts in this thread shows that you know nothing about Euro hockey/the national teams, and yet you seem to think you're uniquely qualified to tell us how all of international hockey should be played. Belittling traditional hockey countries like Switzerland and Slovakia doesn't exactly help your cause either.

Also, how is the bolded part even an argument? Canada and the USA always have full, 22-man NHL rosters in the world championships, simply because of the volume of NA players available. It's the Euro teams, who suffer from the NHL playoffs, because they have less players available and a lot of them are going to compete in the playoffs instead. Many euro players also decline due to injuries or other reasons, further lowering the number of players available.

Despite of all that I mentioned above, the Euro teams are very competitive against the NA national teams in the world championships, contrary to your previous statement about knives and guns. The fact that you and some other North American hockey "fans" think Euro leaguers are nobodies only highlights the level of ignorance they show to the entire game of hockey.


EDIT:

I accept your apology and I'll leave this be.

 

[Elvs]

Despite the gimmic wibes I get from this tournament, I agree that it could be more entertaining that the Olympics for two simple reasons: 1) The small ice surface, making games more intense and NHL players are more used to it. 2) The tournament being played in Canada. It's gonna be a great atmosphere.

Team Europe is defenitely gonna have a good team on paper, surely much better than Slovakia or Switzerland or Slovakia could assemble. I still don't think it's right at all. I imagine Sweden not being allowed to play the World Cup of soccer because they have no chance at medal, and instead Zlatan Ibrahimovic plays in the tournament for some team Europe leftovers. It would be very weird and wrong and I don't even care about soccer.

I'd personally make World Cup a 12 team tournament, possibly even 16 with a four group format. The only way hockey is gonna grow if you showcase the NHL to the smaller nations. The casual audience in Slovakia, Switzerland, Germany, Denmark, Latvia, Belarus, Norway, Austria, Slovenia and France aren't going to tune in if their countries aren't part of it.

As for myself, I'd probably would never have become a follower of the NHL if it wasn't for the WC tournaments in 2003 and 2004, when Swedish NHL players would actually show up and play. When I grew up kids were talking about Forsberg and Sundin becase they were showcased to us on the National Team. Kids in my area today talk about the likes of Linus Omark and Johan Harju, no joke. Less kids get drawn into hockey, which is going to hurt the NHL and all other professional leagues in the long run.

 

[Lord Flashheart]

The way to develop hockey world wide is to include, not exclude.

Who, on a larger scale, is identifying with Team Europe? I sure am not, and I'm from Europe. Honestly not interested in these kind of gimmicks and I'd much rather watch legitimate WC and Olympics with full national teams participating.