Speculation: 2013-14 Trade Talk III

[Starry Knight]

We have almost zero offense from the blueline and are dearly in need of a guy who can play 25+ mins/game that is a net positive back there. No, Subban isn't a shutdown defenseman but he would be the best defenseman we've had since about 2007-08 when Zubov began with the injuries. The things he would add to this team would be monstrous.*

Note, I'm not saying it's going to happen or even advocating for an offer sheet. I was responding to your post about giving Montreal a shot at our #1 pick.

Yeah, it's probably true that Subban would take us to the playoff and thus negating our chance of getting that first overall pick.

4 years without a first sound suspiciously like what has lead us to the predicament that we are in now...

 

[glovesave_35]

Anecdote: We make the run to the WCF in 2008 with Matty Norstrom as our number 1. He's really a number 2, but still an outstanding, physical, minute-eating defenseman. Fistric and Grossman look like seriously legit defenseman. Niskanen looks young but on the rise. Norstrom (and Zubov, not there for the playoffs) leaves and our D has sucked since.

Norstrom was definitely not our #1 defenseman during that run, Robidas was. But yes, having a reliable big defenseman (in that case three including Fistric and Grossman) does make things a lot easier.

 

[glovesave_35]

4 years without a first sound suspiciously like what has lead us to the predicament that we are in now...

6 years without a #1 defenseman might have had a little something to do with it.

 

[MetalGodAOD*]

Last 10 games:

Player A) 1g 5a
Player B) 4g 1a

Assuming you mean Seguin vs Benn, I'm down on Benn right now because he's been directly involved in a ton of the goals against. He's been worse than Seguin defensively and a lot of the goals against that have been scored against us this run have been him blowing his coverage or turning it over directly.

 

[Starry Knight]

6 years without a #1 defenseman might have had a little something to do with it.

...which could be linked to poor drafting.

Not directing this at you glovesave, rather at everyone; offer sheets are a poor strategy. Reduces the relationship of Nill with the rest of the GMs around the league. Temporarily will fix the team, but will ruin the team for the future. Regardless of the age of the guy coming back.

 

[haf]

Norstrom was definitely not our #1 defenseman during that run, Robidas was. But yes, having a reliable big defenseman (in that case three including Fistric and Grossman) does make things a lot easier.

True. Boucher too right? Big body, big shot.

 

[Rune Forumwalker]

It's also kind of funny how some of us are complaining just as much about the defense, but when it comes time to start talking about assets to trade for it, we suddenly don't want to give anything up. You have to give to get, and in the NHL's case, you have to give a lot. It's not ideal, but that's just how it is.

As for one defenseman coming in and not making a difference. I don't know how you can really say that. Let's think about this... Say all goes well and Goligoski, Daley, Gonchar, and Rome are off the team tomorrow. Who's filling those spots? the kids down here in Austin. Now they've already got a great locker room, winning mentality, and solid veteran support here in CP. What kind of player do you want them to learn from in the NHL? A Trevor Daley? An Alex Goligoski? Helllllll no. You want to have somebody here who can command their respect immediately, and show them the intricacies of the league and lead by example.

Good posts. The fact that you have to give to get is why I'm a bit wary for trades as I'm more pessimistic than the rest in just how deep the talent pool is for the NHL team, AHL team, and junior-aged prospects.

What I've been calling for is to make some trades while signing some free agent d-men, like say a Green while letting the prospects develop. Hopefully you can do what BigG was referencing and some D to build a Top 4 that the young guys (Connauton, Oleksiak, Nemeth, Klingberg, etc) can look to as they develop, and when they are in the NHL have the luxury of developing in more sheltered minutes to help them gain confidence for when they need to take over the top spot from the veterans when they leave. Then the cycle can continue with those guys as the veterans and a new crop of young guys breaking in.

 

[Rune Forumwalker]

True. Boucher too right? Big body, big shot.

I think all three of you are right in a way. Think of it how BigG referenced it. You had all three of Boucher, Norstrom, and Robidas eating those big minutes with Grossmann, Niskanen, and Fistric playing a little sheltered and gaining confidence.

 

[haf]

You do realize that without Benn, this already thin offense is not going to do anything. Even if we add the all important #1 Dman. We might get our GAA to 2.00 but we won't have anyone to score a goal or two when needed. See Nashville, they have Weber, Josi, Jones; one of the best D-cores in the league, but their forwards are utter ****. Essentially they have four 3rd lines. And you see the results, really low GAA, but nothing happening in terms of offense and they aren't making the playoff or getting past 1st round.

But when you have a dynamic offensive 1-2 punch up front (Toews-Kane, Crosby-Malkin, Perry-Getzlaf), shutout lines with good enough defense. That is what get you deep in the playoffs and to the cup.

And now that we are looking to have one of those 1-2punches, people want to trade one of them? what the ****

Datsyuk-Zetterberg / Federov-Yzerman / Modano-Nieuwendyk - I hear you. For sure. I don't disagree. A dynamic 1-2 punch is important. But I really believe you build from the goal out.

Those teams also had Keith-Seabrook, Orpik-Letang, Pronger Niedermeyer (when they were winning), and Lidstrom-Whomever for Detroit, Hatcher - Zubov.

Elite forwards get traded. It's perhaps rare, but they get moved. Recently Bobby Ryan and Seguin and Nash. It happens.

I don't know of any true #1's getting moved in recent years. The only movement i know of is Minnesota signed Suter, for 13 years at 7.5 mil, and suddenly they are a playoff team. It is no coincidence. I am not down on Benn. I think he is a special special player. But #1 D is too rare a commodity to pass on if given the chance IMO.

More rare than elite forwards. Particularly wingers. Just ask Edmonton.

 

[tjcurrie]

Toews also has a Conn Smythe in his back pocket.

So a guy with just one 70 point season in 6 so far can earn a Conn Smythe, but a guy without a 70 point season in 4 so far is utterly hopeless? Okay.

How many Conn Smythes would Toews have with Goligoski as Chicago's #1 defenseman? Or a supporting cast of Eakin, Cole, Fiddler, and Garbutt (no offense to them) rather than Sharp, Hossa, Ladd, Byfuglien, etc etc etc?

Anyways...

The point went right over your head. The context at first was that Benn was not a good captain because he didn't show emotion. I countered that by saying Steve Yzerman (who was brought up as an example of a great captain) was himself actually questioned as a captain for 11 years until he finally won in 1997, and all of a sudden he was placed on a pedestal. Also by proving that there isn't just one type of mold for a captain, there's been all types who have lead - and won.

Then you brought up points, saying "Benn doesn't have a 70 point season yet". So I proved that theory wrong, showing that you don't need to be a big time point getter to lead. Give Benn some time, a supporting cast, and we'll see.

Do you want to keep going?

 

[Cin]

Datsyuk-Zetterberg / Federov-Yzerman / Modano-Nieuwendyk - I hear you. For sure. I don't disagree. A dynamic 1-2 punch is important. But I really believe you build from the goal out.

Those teams also had Keith-Seabrook, Orpik-Letang, Pronger Niedermeyer (when they were winning), and Lidstrom-Whomever for Detroit, Hatcher - Zubov.

Elite forwards get traded. It's perhaps rare, but they get moved. Recently Bobby Ryan and Seguin and Nash. It happens.

I don't know of any true #1's getting moved in recent years. The only movement i know of is Minnesota signed Suter, for 13 years at 7.5 mil, and suddenly they are a playoff team. It is no coincidence. I am not down on Benn. I think he is a special special player. But #1 D is too rare a commodity to pass on if given the chance IMO.

More rare than elite forwards. Particularly wingers. Just ask Edmonton.

This right here is the school of thought I come from. Net out.

Also, I hear you glovesave. It's a very delicate line you have to balance on when thinking about huge deals like these. I guess the thing I haven't seen too much of is people throwing those tier two names out.

When I think of good, but not great defenseman- I'm thinking Matt Greene, Mark Giordano, Beauchemin, Bieksa, Johnson, Jackman, or Timonen. I think those are actually defenseman that could be within our grasp through a trade. Well, probably not Giordano.

But with such a strong defensive prospect pool about ready to bloom, we've got to get some solid mentors here. If we don't, then we can just throw away those draft picks.

 

[Frozen Failure]

Matt Greene would be a good pickup. Andrej Meszaros would be a good pickup because his advanced stats tend to be through the roof. Chris Phillips might be okay.

Gio, Beauch, Bieksa, Jackman... off the table.

Timonen, no. Which Johnson, Jack? Probably is.

 

[StoneColdGMJN]

I'll echo my sentiment from earlier.

James Wisniewski.

 

[glovesave_35]

Wait. You proved me wrong when I said that Benn has never topped 70 points? How did you manage that?

He didn't. He proved it doesn't matter.

Debating captain material this and that from the outside is a fool's errand. None of us really know, but more importantly in this case is the fact that he's barely had half of a season to grow into the role. I'm sure Nill didn't name him captain because of his leadership this year, but rather that he thinks Benn will learn many things about leading in the next few years so that when he sees the team being a legit playoff team Benn won't be new to the role.

TJ's point about Yzerman and Sakic growing into their captain roles is bang on though. Yzerman's Detroit teams especially in the early days of his career (i.e. the first decade) were pretty terrible. Did he just magically become "captain material" or did his team get better as well as him growing into the role?

I think I tend to fall a bit closer to Troy's opinion on the captaincy though, yet I won't go quite as far as him and call it completely irrelevant (I think he's said that in the past). Teams that are good year in and year out have captains whose leadership abilities are beyond reproach, for the sole reason that their teams have a consistent measure of success. They also tend to be a hell of a lot more talented than what the Stars have rolled out there in recent years.

 

[Dallasman]

To anyone on here who wants to trade Kari Lehtonen, case and point the Edmonton Oilers.

Poor defense, poor goaltending shows the flaws. Their goalie wasn't winning them games so he was traded. And they still suck.

Dallas, on the other hand, has a goalie in Lehtonen who can steal the odd game or two for us and get us that win behind a poor defense.

You don't trade a goalie like that, especially when the turn around on this team occurs.

And to you guys who say Campbell is coming along, he's played 7 games in the AHL this year. 7. By now I would have hoped he was the starter in Texas for how high he was picked and thought of. I know goalies do take a while to come along and mature but he's not lighting the world up in the AHL.

Keep Kari because aside from Benn and Seguin, he's what you build this team around. GMJN did something right on that trade.

 

[Elysian]

To anyone on here who wants to trade Kari Lehtonen, case and point the Edmonton Oilers.

Poor defense, poor goaltending shows the flaws. Their goalie wasn't winning them games so he was traded. And they still suck.

Dallas, on the other hand, has a goalie in Lehtonen who can steal the odd game or two for us and get us that win behind a poor defense.

You don't trade a goalie like that, especially when the turn around on this team occurs.

And to you guys who say Campbell is coming along, he's played 7 games in the AHL this year. 7. By now I would have hoped he was the starter in Texas for how high he was picked and thought of. I know goalies do take a while to come along and mature but he's not lighting the world up in the AHL.

Keep Kari because aside from Benn and Seguin, he's what you build this team around. GMJN did something right on that trade.

Campbell has been injured all season... He lit up the world last season, and IMO should have been the starter in the playoffs.

 

[Famous Flames]

The biggest problem is Kari is 30, and the peak for Benn and Seguin probably starts 5 years away. Is Kari going to be the guy at 35+?

 

[Elysian]

The biggest problem is Kari is 30, and the peak for Benn and Seguin probably starts 5 years away. Is Kari going to be the guy at 35+?

He could be... If his groin holds up...

 

[tjcurrie]

He didn't. He proved it doesn't matter.

Debating captain material this and that from the outside is a fool's errand. None of us really know, but more importantly in this case is the fact that he's barely had half of a season to grow into the role. I'm sure Nill didn't name him captain because of his leadership this year, but rather that he thinks Benn will learn many things about leading in the next few years so that when he sees the team being a legit playoff team Benn won't be new to the role.

TJ's point about Yzerman and Sakic growing into their captain roles is bang on though. Yzerman's Detroit teams especially in the early days of his career (i.e. the first decade) were pretty terrible. Did he just magically become "captain material" or did his team get better as well as him growing into the role?

I think I tend to fall a bit closer to Troy's opinion on the captaincy though, yet I won't go quite as far as him and call it completely irrelevant (I think he's said that in the past). Teams that are good year in and year out have captains whose leadership abilities are beyond reproach, for the sole reason that their teams have a consistent measure of success. They also tend to be a hell of a lot more talented than what the Stars have rolled out there in recent years.

I'm beginning to think that BennRulez guy is just a troll. Nobody could be that dense.

Anyways...

That's exactly the point about guys like Yzerman and Sakic, especially Yzerman who was doubted as a captain for 11 years. Neither were your rah rah/out there/mean as heck leaders like your Bobby Clarkes and your Mark Messiers. Even Jean Beliveau is considered one of the greatest leaders of all time and he was the perfect gentleman. Wayne Gretzky never hurt a fly. There's just been so many different types of leaders throughout the game, there is no specific mold for it.

Which takes me to that bolded part...

That's absolutely correct. Bang on with Yzerman and Sakic. Joe Sakic has won ONE playoff series without Patrick Roy in the pipes. Steve Yzerman (as I've pointed out) was captain for 11 years before he finally won. It took the right talent and depth to bring each leader to the pinnacle, they didn't grab hold of their respective teams and drag them to the top despite what some like to believe. They certainly played their roles, but were propelled by those around them. Even Gretzky couldn't drag his team to a Cup after leaving Edmonton (though he came close in '93).

So yeah, Benn is obviously his own type of player. He's got some Yzerman and Sakic in him where he's that quiet leader, then you see the Messier in him using some brute force, throwing an elbow, or even dropping the gloves (which Messier did from time to time especially earlier in his career like Benn). And we aren't in the room, we aren't around the guys when they're all together in their element so there's no way any of us can get a true grasp on the respect he carries - which is actually what it's all about. So criticizing his leadership this early and with the supporting cast he has is ridiculous. He needs a chance to grow in to it just like everyone else, and he needs to be given a proper supporting cast, just like everyone else.

 

[Hull Fan]

He could be... If his groin holds up...

Yeah see, Lundqvist is a cautionary tale for goalies. Older guys don't hold up. That's just the truth. At 30 Kari probably has 2-3 more good years and while I'd feel much better if Campbell had been playing all year if someone offers you something good for Kari you have to consider it in the context of how much turnover the defense needs.

The defense needs 4 new players. Yeah 4, that's not easy and probably not even possible considering Gonchar's contract, if they're willing to buy out Rome, Jordie Benn being a dick and scoring a great penalty shot. So let's say they can move Daley, Robidas, and Goligoski before next season. So they've got to bring in 2/3 new defenders and if they're a young guy plus a UFA like Fayne + Rundblad...does anyone think that's enough?

I know Nill is going to try and I expect a few new bodies in but I don't expect wholesale changes with 4 new guys back there so if next year is a different version of not very good because young guys and the FA/trades you bring in are 4-6 type defenders then selling Kari makes some sense.

Everything should be on the table if the right deal comes across including selling the goaltender because many teams have proven there are plenty of guys who can play for a transitioning team.

 

[usefulfiction]

The biggest problem is Kari is 30, and the peak for Benn and Seguin probably starts 5 years away. Is Kari going to be the guy at 35+?

That is why you keep drafting goalies to keep your pipeline stocked.

Setbacks aside, in the next 5 years your plan would be to have Campbell take over the back up role in Dallas and slowly increase his number of games played each year until he takes over for Kari.

 

[Troy McClure]

Yeah see, Lundqvist is a cautionary tale for goalies. Older guys don't hold up. That's just the truth. At 30 Kari probably has 2-3 more good years and while I'd feel much better if Campbell had been playing all year if someone offers you something good for Kari you have to consider it in the context of how much turnover the defense needs.

The defense needs 4 new players. Yeah 4, that's not easy and probably not even possible considering Gonchar's contract, if they're willing to buy out Rome, Jordie Benn being a dick and scoring a great penalty shot. So let's say they can move Daley, Robidas, and Goligoski before next season. So they've got to bring in 2/3 new defenders and if they're a young guy plus a UFA like Fayne + Rundblad...does anyone think that's enough?

I know Nill is going to try and I expect a few new bodies in but I don't expect wholesale changes with 4 new guys back there so if next year is a different version of not very good because young guys and the FA/trades you bring in are 4-6 type defenders then selling Kari makes some sense.

Everything should be on the table if the right deal comes across including selling the goaltender because many teams have proven there are plenty of guys who can play for a transitioning team.

It's all a guess. Belfour had back troubles his whole career, but he was able to be amazing even close to 40. Kari could be that guy, but who knows. The probabilities say no.

 

[Famous Flames]

The defense needs 4 new players. Yeah 4, that's not easy and probably not even possible considering Gonchar's contract, if they're willing to buy out Rome, Jordie Benn being a dick and scoring a great penalty shot. So let's say they can move Daley, Robidas, and Goligoski before next season. So they've got to bring in 2/3 new defenders and if they're a young guy plus a UFA like Fayne + Rundblad...does anyone think that's enough?

If this team magically had a legit # 1 pairing overnight, I think you'd be astounded at how much better the D corp played overall. Daley is a perfectly serviceable #2 pairing guy. I think Goose is too, but I don't think I've ever seen him play when he wasn't pressing over his head. Throw in Dillon to add physicality and size on that unit, and you've got options.

Of course, I have no idea how you get there.

 

[ColeJ]

i love kari to death, and would love nothing more than for him to retire here...

but much like loui, he doesn't fit with the age of the team. if things go as planned, jack will be our goalie when jamie, tyler, and val are hitting their primes.

if we could find a way to ship kari out this year in a package for that defenseman we've needed for so long, then we have to do it.

in all fairness, would we be THAT much worse with a goalie from the scrap heap in the nets until jack is ready?

 

[BigG44]

There is some sense in trading Kari. I'm not going to say it's the wrong move, but the one thing that could cause the team to hesitate is Miller is already reportedly available, there are rumors Cam Ward could be in play, and the UFA market is pretty stacked.

If a team like the Isles though were in love with Kari, and they wanted some cost certainty because he's already signed, you might get a decent package.

That said, if you think Dallas is going to land a top pair D, you're better off not trading Kari. Goalies notoriously have lower values, and their returns are often underwhelming. Kari alone isn't going to get a top pairing D.