1990 All star break players choice poll

[Dark Shadows]

In 1990 a players choice poll was conducted by the Pittsburgh press. 123 players responded. It was published January 21st 1990.

The article gives no information other than the questions or the votes. It does not mention if players were required to vote based only on the current season or not, nor does it mention if they were supposed to vote only for players not on their team.

It only shows the votes for the top 5 in each category.

It does not include criteria. For instance, when it asks for players to vote on who is the best all around player, Wayne Gretzky came in second with 19 votes. Clearly quite a few players were confused as to what "All around player" meant.

When it asks players to vote on best defensive defensemen, it does not specify if they mean strictly defensive defensemen, or if they can include two way defensemen.

You can assume in a few places. For instance, when the players were asked to vote for the 5 players they would choose if they were starting a franchise, since 4 centers were chosen, you can assume they were not required to pick each position.

In some parts of the articles, they mention who voted certain ways. For instance, Fetisov received 20 votes for "Most overrated". The article claims 12 of those votes came from Penguins players. it mentions that Calgary and Buffalo players combined for 17 of 39 of Rob Brown's votes.

Mention is made of a Jets player voting "Russians. All of them" as his answer to the most overrated question.

Some players obviously thought the poll was a joke, as Dave Brown and John Tucker got a vote for best playmaker

Here is the list.

Who would you want to be on a breakaway for your team with 30 seconds left and the score tied in the 7th game in the Stanley cup final?
1. Mario Lemieux (59)
2. Wayne Gretzky (12)
3. Steve Yzerman (10)
4. Pierre Turgeon (4)
5. Thomas Steen (3)

Who would you want as your goalie to stop an opponent's breakaway with 30 seconds left and the score tied in the 7th game of the Stanley cup final?
1. Grant Fuhr (40)
2. Patrick Roy (17)
3. Daren Puppa (14)
4. Mike Vernon (11)
5. Mike Liut (8)
John Vanbiesbrouck (8)

Which 5 players would you choose if you were starting a franchise?
1. Wayne Gretzky (83)
2. Mario Lemieux (74)
3. Mark Messier (63)
4. Raymond Bourque (61)
5. Steve Yzerman (37)

Best all-round player
1. Mark Messier (64)
2. Wayne Gretzky (19)
3. Raymond Bourque (13)
4. Mario Lemieux (4)
Jari Kurri (4)
Steve Yzerman (4)

Toughest to defend against
1. Wayne Gretzky (30)
2. Mark Messier (25)
3. Mario Lemieux (24)
4. Steve Yzerman (7)
5. Raymond Bourque (6)

Five most underrated players
1. Thomas Steen (25)
2. Adam Oates (22)
3. Steve Larmer (18)
Joey Mullen (18)
5. Gerard Gallant (14)

Five most overrated players
1. Rob Brown (39)
2. Jimmy Carson (23)
3. Viacheslav Fetisov (20)
Rod Langway (20)
5. Luc Robitaille (18)

Best Puckhandler
1. Mario Lemieux (37)
2. Wayne Gretzky (32)
3. Denis Savard (17)
4. Steve Yzerman (7)
5. Sergei Makarov (5)

Best Skater
1. Paul Coffey (53)
2. Mark Messier (25)
3. Denis Savard (8)
4. Mike Gartner (6)
5. Pat LaFontaine (4)

Hardest Slapshot
1. Al Macinnis (68)
2. Doug Wilson (22)
3. Stephane Richter (11)
4. Brett Hull (5)
5. David Ellett (3)

Best Defensive defenseman
1. Mike Ramsay (34)
2. Brad McCrimmon (17)
3. Kevin Lowe (14)
4. Craig Ludwig (13)
5. Raymond Bourque (8)

Best offensive defenseman
1. Paul Coffey (68)
2. Raymond Bourque (21)
3. Phil Housley (9)
4. Brian Leetch (8)
Gary Suter (8)

Best playmaker
1. Wayne Gretzky (102)
2. Mario Lemieux (6)
3. Adam Oates (2)
4. Steve Yzerman (1)
Denis Savard (1)
Dave Brown (1)
Joe Nieuwendyk (1)
John Tucker (1)

Best Coach
1. Pat Burns (13)
2. Rick Dudley (11)
3. Mike Keenan (8)
4. Al Arbour (4)
Pierre Page (4)

Click to read more...

 

[VanIslander]

The duh factor applies to much of it, but I found the bolded below interesting:

Who would you want as your goalie to stop an opponent's breakaway with 30 seconds left and the score tied in the 7th game of the Stanley cup final?
1. Grant Fuhr (40)
2. Patrick Roy (17)
3. Daren Puppa (14)
4. Mike Vernon (11)

Best all-round player
1. Mark Messier (64)
2. Wayne Gretzky (19)
3. Raymond Bourque (13)
4. Mario Lemieux (4)
Jari Kurri (4)
Steve Yzerman (4)

Five most underrated players
1. Thomas Steen (25)
2. Adam Oates (22)
3. Steve Larmer (18)
Joey Mullen (18)
5. Gerard Gallant (14)

Five most overrated players
1. Rob Brown (39)
2. Jimmy Carson (23)
3. Viacheslav Fetisov (20)

Hardest Slapshot
1. Al Macinnis (68)
2. Doug Wilson (22)
3. Stephane Richter (11)
4. Brett Hull (5)
5. David Ellett (3)

Best playmaker
1. Wayne Gretzky (102)
2. Mario Lemieux (6)
3. Adam Oates (2)
4. Steve Yzerman (1)
Denis Savard (1)
Dave Brown (1)
Joe Nieuwendyk (1)
John Tucker (1)

Best Coach
1. Pat Burns (13)
2. Rick Dudley (11)
3. Mike Keenan (8)

 

[Rhiessan71]

The duh factor applies to much of it, but I found the bolded below interesting:

The only choice that really surprised me was Dudley. I never thought he was that good of a coach.
Gallant was another that doesn't look right. Underrated a few years previous maybe but not by 1990 IMO.

The rest are close to what I remember it being.

Puppa was at his peak and playing some top notch hockey at the time.
Messier was Messier and very close to the height of his career at that point.
Thomas Steen was vastly underrated for years tolling with the Jets.
Fetisov doesn't surprise me, he was touted as one of, if not the best D-man in the world by the Russians/International peeps for close to a decade. Then he finally gets to the NHL and is clearly not on the same level as Bourque, Chelios ect ect.
Wilson had a cannon, this shouldn't surprise anyone.

 

[Evincar]

Some players obviously thought the poll was a joke, as Dave Brown and John Tucker got a vote for best playmaker

Nieuwendyk getting a vote is pretty funny.

 

[Dark Shadows]

Nieuwendyk getting a vote is pretty funny.

Dave Brown. 52 assists in 729 NHL games

 

[Dark Shadows]

The only choice that really surprised me was Dudley. I never thought he was that good of a coach.
Gallant was another that doesn't look right. Underrated a few years previous maybe but not by 1990 IMO.

A lot of fringe fans seemed to think he was a product of Yzerman. Most of the people who saw him play on a regular basis respected the things he brought to the game. He was a very good player.

Fetisov doesn't surprise me, he was touted as one of, if not the best D-man in the world by the Russians/International peeps for close to a decade. Then he finally gets to the NHL and is clearly not on the same level as Bourque, Chelios ect ect.
Wilson had a cannon, this shouldn't surprise anyone.

I would say the change in lifestyle, system of play, and the difficulty communicating with coaches and teammates played a factor. Amazing that they put him with Kasatonov. those two hated each other with a passion by the time they got to the NHL and would not even talk.

He was also 31 by this time, and a lot of players started to burn out by then in this era. Let alone having to relearn everything because they play completely different across the sea and nobody speaks your language.

 

[Evincar]

Dave Brown. 52 assists in 729 NHL games

When you exclude the 2 joke votes (Brown and Tucker), the vote for Nieuwendyk is a joke itself.

 

[Rhiessan71]

I would say the change in lifestyle, system of play, and the difficulty communicating with coaches and teammates played a factor. Amazing that they put him with Kasatonov. those two hated each other with a passion by the time they got to the NHL and would not even talk.

He was also 31 by this time, and a lot of players started to burn out by then in this era. Let alone having to relearn everything because they play completely different across the sea and nobody speaks your language.

Still, you can make whatever excuses you want to but the reality is that Bourque was only 2 years his junior and completely outclassed him whether Fetisov was new to the League playing with someone he hated or later when he was playing for a stacked Wings team in a much more comforting environment.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Fetisov

Fetisov was never the same after the June 1985 car accident that claimed the life of his younger brother.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viacheslav_Fetisov

 

[Loto68]

To me, the most interesting thing I find in this is that Langway was rated one of the most overrated players and didn't even make the top 5 for best defensive defenseman despite the fact he had won 2 Norris trophies for his defensive play while Mike Ramsey, one of the most underrated players in history, was deemed to be the best defensive defenseman in the game.

 

[pdd]

To me, the most interesting thing I find in this is that Langway was rated one of the most overrated players and didn't even make the top 5 for best defensive defenseman despite the fact he had won 2 Norris trophies for his defensive play while Mike Ramsey, one of the most underrated players in history, was deemed to be the best defensive defenseman in the game.

Langway had a fairly sharp decline in the 80s, and is also four years older than Ramsey. Langway had also just returned from a knee injury, so he likely wasn't playing that well in the few games he had played before the break (probably about 20).

 

[seventieslord]

Nice work digging this up.

The results in "best all round player" and "who would you start a franchise with" help a lot with the debates that have dominated this section in recent months.

 

[Pominville Knows]

So playmaking goes to Gretzky by a landslide, Breakaway to Lemieux by a landslide. Nothing new under the sun there.

Gerard Gallant was a good player who unfortunately had his career cut short. Perhaps there was a lot of talk back then as it has been on this forum lately, that it was all Yzerman on that line. Gerard Gallant was a good winger.

Fetisov was not as good as Bourque, at least not after that accident but his later time on the Red Wings showed what he could do on NHL ice when not playing with garbage as in New Jersey in 1989-90. He was used to play with the KLM-line for a decade almost, i believe that change and loss in talent was hard to adjust to.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Nice work digging this up.

The results in "best all round player" and "who would you start a franchise with" help a lot with the debates that have dominated this section in recent months.

This article has been cited in the ATD for a few years now.

I know I used it for Coffey, Ramsay, and Fuhr in the bios I made of them the past couple years.

Particularly with Fuhr it sort of validates what contemporary opinions were of him against the revisionism due to Oilers regular season stats afterwards..

 

[tony d]

Very interesting to see Thomas Steen's name there on the breakaway list. The guy was always a solid player but I didn't think he was that great a player.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

i'd hate for this to get buried so ima spell it out.

Nice work digging this up.

The results in "best all round player" and "who would you start a franchise with" help a lot with the debates that have dominated this section in recent months.

In 1990 a players choice poll was conducted by the Pittsburgh press. 123 players responded. It was published January 21st 1990.

Which 5 players would you choose if you were starting a franchise?
1. Wayne Gretzky (83)
2. Mario Lemieux (74)
3. Mark Messier (63)
4. Raymond Bourque (61)
5. Steve Yzerman (37)

Best all-round player
1. Mark Messier (64)
2. Wayne Gretzky (19)
3. Raymond Bourque (13)
4. Mario Lemieux (4)
Jari Kurri (4)
Steve Yzerman (4)

 

[Rhiessan71]

To me, the most interesting thing I find in this is that Langway was rated one of the most overrated players and didn't even make the top 5 for best defensive defenseman despite the fact he had won 2 Norris trophies for his defensive play while Mike Ramsey, one of the most underrated players in history, was deemed to be the best defensive defenseman in the game.

This was 6 years after winning his last Norris and at this point he was having trouble playing even 3/4's of a season.

 

[BraveCanadian]

i'd hate for this to get buried so ima spell it out.

I think you may need to spell it out some more?

The fact that a guy coming off a 155 point season was valued as a centerpiece of a franchise but wasn't that well thought of defensively yet isn't a shock..

 

[Plural]

Nice work digging this up.

The results in "best all round player" and "who would you start a franchise with" help a lot with the debates that have dominated this section in recent months.

It probably won't stop the debate but definitely gives more insight on the matter how players felt about Messier vs. Yzerman.

It just cements the idea that Messier > Yzerman which is already a popular opinion on this section.

 

[Wrath]

I think you may need to spell it out some more?

The fact that a guy coming off a 155 point season was valued as a centerpiece of a franchise but wasn't that well thought of defensively yet isn't a shock..

I think he's trying to highlight that for one particular poster around here who's adamant that yzerman>>>messier

 

[Filatov2Kovalev2Bonk]

(...)
Fetisov doesn't surprise me, he was touted as one of, if not the best D-man in the world by the Russians/International peeps for close to a decade. Then he finally gets to the NHL and is clearly not on the same level as Bourque, Chelios ect ect.

Was a running joke around the hockey crew that if you could give out an award for stickwork that Fetisov would have it named after him. He had excellent defensive skills but never hesitated to throw in that extra slash, hook or jab on anyone coming near him, getting away with a fair bit because of reputation, no doubt. Still, the lack of talent on those blooming NJ teams couldn't have helped.

I think he's trying to highlight that for one particular poster around here who's adamant that yzerman>>>messier

Well we all have our favouries (I'll always have a soft spot for the Habs) but Messier in his early prime was an absolute, salivating, amoral and bloodthirsty animal. Oddly enough I'm going to praise him for the same things I've panned Fetisov for but he could put the hurt on you on the scoreboard or away from the puck. I'd probably have to take Yzerman these days in the bubble-wrapped NHL but in the mid-80s to early 90s Mess would have been at the top of my list. Those eyes...

 

[BraveCanadian]

It probably won't stop the debate but definitely gives more insight on the matter how players felt about Messier vs. Yzerman.

It just cements the idea that Messier > Yzerman which is already a popular opinion on this section.

I think he's trying to highlight that for one particular poster around here who's adamant that yzerman>>>messier

This poll was taken in the midst of a Hart winning season for Messier so I don't think that it should surprise anyone.

Messier was much more established at the time than Yzerman (who had only one shortened season and the one massive season of his prime on record when the poll was taken...)

By my recollection, Yzerman was in the discussion after Gretzky and Lemieux for the 3rd best hockey player on the planet at the time. (Along with the Messiers Bourques etc)

 

[Plural]

This poll was taking in the midst of a Hart winning season for Messier so I don't think that it should surprise anyone.

Messier was much more established at the time than Yzerman (who had only one shortened season and the one massive season of his prime on record when the poll was taken...)

By my recollection, Yzerman was in the discussion after Gretzky and Lemieux for the 3rd best hockey player on the planet at the time. (Along with the Messiers Bourques etc)

Definitely true. Yzerman was one of the players who were right behind Gretzky and Lemieux. As was Messier too. Timing for that poll was perfect for Messier, but it wasn't really unfair to Yzerman either. If Yzerman was considered about as complete player as Jari Kurri at that time is not a big knock on him. But he is clearly behind Messier.

If we are to think about this this way. Which of these two players establishes their legacy more after that poll was taken? I mean, which one of these two will add more value to their careers from that point onwards?

If at that time the difference is clearly in favor of Messier, might it turn around how soon? I know it will, but at which point?

 

[pdd]

i'd hate for this to get buried so ima spell it out.

Messier would be voted the Pearson winner what, maybe two months later?

I think Yzerman's finish in "all-around" should back up what I have said about his game rather than follow the implication you are making.

It probably won't stop the debate but definitely gives more insight on the matter how players felt about Messier vs. Yzerman.

It just cements the idea that Messier > Yzerman which is already a popular opinion on this section.

In that season, yes. This poll was taken during the All-Star break of Messier's peak season. Bernie Nicholls was also traded to New York (after having been told by Bruce McNall that he was secure in LA) during that break, FWIW.

Definitely true. Yzerman was one of the players who were right behind Gretzky and Lemieux. As was Messier too. Timing for that poll was perfect for Messier, but it wasn't really unfair to Yzerman either. If Yzerman was considered about as complete player as Jari Kurri at that time is not a big knock on him. But he is clearly behind Messier.

If we are to think about this this way. Which of these two players establishes their legacy more after that poll was taken? I mean, which one of these two will add more value to their careers from that point onwards?

From 90-91 to career end:

Messier: Cupx1, Hartx1, Pearsonx1, 1ASx1,
RS: 958GP, 314g-603a-917pts
PO: 88GP, 33g-62a-95pts

Yzerman: Cupx3, Smythex1, Selkex1, 1ASx1,
RS: 1000GP, 401g-662a-1063pts
PO: 164GP, 54g-90a-144pts

If you want to find the exact date of the AS game and separate out those numbers and add them in, feel free. But I think it's clear that Yzerman had the better career after this poll was taken. You could completely eliminate Yzerman's career before the 90-91 season and he's still a HHOFer. That's a much harder argument with Messier.

 

[brianscot]

Great to see Thomas Steen selected as the most underrated player.

Steen seemed to be the classic didn't do anything great, but always did everything well type of player --- somewhat a European Butch Goring.

It's interesting that the Jets were willing to move their two biggest offensive names (Hawerchuck and Maclean) but always kept Steen around for their annual identity search.

It must have been great to watch Farejstads in the SEL the year when Hakan Loob and Steen were flying around together.