1974 Canada/Soviet Summit

[VMBM]

Just to point out again to AMD about the disallowed Soviet goal in Game 2; I remember watching the replay and only after extreme slow motion, it was apparent that there was a goal.

The commentator saw that it was a goal right away without the replay. The goal judge had the light on for many seconds. So there were certainly people who didn't need any replays to acknowledge it.

It may have not been a 'clear case', but neither was the one that happened in the end of the 7th game (I think you'd need to watch a few replays to acknowledge that one too; i.e. that Canada scored before the game ended).

 

[Den]

And then the following year they came over and won 5 out of 8 against NHL teams.

Craig

Which does not matter since according to Red Fisher "the Soviets' failed to beat the National Hockey League's best 3 teams. Their best was unable to beat our best, which makes the over-all results considerably less than important."

 

[Den]

Overall in 1974 Canada > USSR

That's theoretical, since no practical confirmation happened, this is just what it is - a guess

 

[cam0426]

Which does not matter since according to Red Fisher "the Soviets' failed to beat the National Hockey League's best 3 teams. Their best was unable to beat our best, which makes the over-all results considerably less than important."

That is certainly the perspective of the NHL and they are welcome to it. Overall though they lost - and some of their top teams (Boston, Islanders,) got beaten.

One thing I'll raise here though. Buffalo beat the Soviet Wings "fair and square." They in fact beat the hell out of them. Montreal should have except for a stellar game by Tretiak. The Flyer game though was a total disgrace. Lloyd Gilmour allowed the Flyers to get away with some of the most despicable behavor ever seen. Punches, elbow smashes, cross checks, slashes, etc. We then know what happened -the Soviets left the ice. Bobby Hull was at that game and he publicly stated he was sickened by the Flyers. Tretiak has written that in the dressing room the CKSA coaches told them to basically "tank the game." They had won the series and they had the Olympics coming up - which was far more important that this game. They just wanted to get out of Philly physically intact.

Let's face it. We as Canadians are quick to accuse the Soviets of cheating - both on and off the ice. And I do so in my book on the 1974 Summit - especially with Dombrowski's work in Game 6. But we pulled the same stunt in this game. Gilmour was an official who was known for letting things go. (Dave Schultz has written that before the game he was worried as he knew that the Flyers could not skate, pass, shoot, etc with CKSA. In other words play within the rules of the game. Then he found out Gilmour was the ref and he knew they - the Flyers - would be fine.) The NHL insured that Gilmour would work this game as the Flyers could not be successful against CKSA with either a European official or a NHL ref like Bruce Hood who would actually enforce the rules. And Gilmour "turned the dogs of war loose" and basically allowed the Flyers to go for heads. I am convinced that if the Soviets had not tanked the game and continued to try then the Flyers would have then sent several Soviets off the ice on stretchers while Eagleson and Campbell would have beamed the Philly crowd would have roared with joy, and people who actually love skilled hockey would have vomited.

Craig

 

[Dark Shadows]

That is certainly the perspective of the NHL and they are welcome to it. Overall though they lost - and some of their top teams (Boston, Islanders,) got beaten.

One thing I'll raise here though. Buffalo beat the Soviet Wings "fair and square." They in fact beat the hell out of them. Montreal should have except for a stellar game by Tretiak. The Flyer game though was a total disgrace. Lloyd Gilmour allowed the Flyers to get away with some of the most despicable behavor ever seen. Punches, elbow smashes, cross checks, slashes, etc. We then know what happened -the Soviets left the ice. Bobby Hull was at that game and he publicly stated he was sickened by the Flyers. Tretiak has written that in the dressing room the CKSA coaches told them to basically "tank the game." They had won the series and they had the Olympics coming up - which was far more important that this game. They just wanted to get out of Philly physically intact.

Let's face it. We as Canadians are quick to accuse the Soviets of cheating - both on and off the ice. And I do so in my book on the 1974 Summit - especially with Dombrowski's work in Game 6. But we pulled the same stunt in this game. Gilmour was an official who was known for letting things go. (Dave Schultz has written that before the game he was worried as he knew that the Flyers could not skate, pass, shoot, etc with CKSA. In other words play within the rules of the game. Then he found out Gilmour was the ref and he knew they - the Flyers - would be fine.) The NHL insured that Gilmour would work this game as the Flyers could not be successful against CKSA with either a European official or a NHL ref like Bruce Hood who would actually enforce the rules. And Gilmour "turned the dogs of war loose" and basically allowed the Flyers to go for heads. I am convinced that if the Soviets had not tanked the game and continued to try then the Flyers would have then sent several Soviets off the ice on stretchers while Eagleson and Campbell would have beamed the Philly crowd would have roared with joy, and people who actually love skilled hockey would have vomited.

Craig

I also quickly pulled out a clip of just how rough the Flyers were getting with Kharlamov and why they walked off the ice in 76.

The first hit on Gustov was clean. Then, Vasiliev gets hit right on the numbers, driving his head into the boards(Fortunately he is a tough guy and was fine), Then barber cold ***** Kharlamov in the face(No call), then Van Imp as he is coming out of the penalty box throws a vicious elbow into Kharlamov's head. On the slow motion replay, you can see just how hard the elbow was. Kharlamov was one of Russia's toughest players, but he was getting murdered and the refs were letting it go. Maybe ill get the slow motion replay of that hit and upload it.

Right after Kharlamov was laying prone for a minute or so, the Russians were given a delay of game penalty when The coach calls the ref over to ask why nothing was called.

 

[Hockeynomad]

Has anyone downloaded the book?

At only $10 it could be a good bet and maybe I could print a copy. Wonder how many pages? Hate reading on the screen for sure.

I remember that in exhibition games the Western Canada Juniors beat TC one game and the juniors defenceman Pat Price was a standout. Price tanked in the WHA.

That Red Army/Philly game was a disaster. As I also mentioned, the Russians just wanted to finish the series to ensure they got their money and they had the Olympics coming up.

I remember in 76 that hit on Kharlamov thinking it was legit but that video does show some elbow. Kharlamov was definitely not hurt but sure lay on the ice "soccer" style hurt.

I hated those Flyers and especially Bobby Clarke.

I think Bobby Clarke was the replacement for Derek Sanderson in 72 series.

 

[VMBM]

Flyers vs Red Army game. Sure Flyers were getting away with murder a couple of times, but they were also the better TEAM in every aspect of the game. Don't forget that CSKA had a lot of power play opportunities, and they couldn't mostly even enter their offensive zone. And Flyers showed the weaknesses (inability to change tactic, mediocre defensive play blah blah blah) that Soviet hockey still had. I can't imagine anyone watching the match and saying that Red Army were the better team - not in that game. As a Soviet hockey fan, I have to disagree on the game being a 'total farce' or something like that. CSKA should have played better, whatever the circumstanses.

Obviously, play that game in Moscow, and with Euro refs a la Kompalla or Dombrovski and a fully motivated CSKA, and it might have been a very different game. But that's another story...

 

[Den]

That is certainly the perspective of the NHL and they are welcome to it

Well, Fisher is factually wrong as well, "their best" were not: Spartak > CSKA, Dynamo>Krylya that season

 

[cam0426]

Has anyone downloaded the book?

At only $10 it could be a good bet and maybe I could print a copy. Wonder how many pages? Hate reading on the screen for sure.

I remember that in exhibition games the Western Canada Juniors beat TC one game and the juniors defenceman Pat Price was a standout. Price tanked in the WHA.

The print edition of the book is 210 pages. If you check my page on lulu you will see a nice review from someone on this board who did download the book.

The Juniors won the 3rd game 3-2 and Canada looked really bad. They then turned on the jets and blew out the juniors in the final 2 games. I can tell you my book is the only place where you will get the box scores for not only the Canada/Soviet games but all 5 games against the juniors and the games against the Swedes, Finns, and Czechs.

Craig

Craig

 

[cam0426]

As an update I am really pleased so far with the sales of the book. It shows there is an interest in this long forgotten series.

Just a question for everyone though. People remember very clearly the NHL's debacles at the 1979 Challenge Cup and 1981 Canada Cup but the 1974 Summit seemed to "fade away." Any thoughts as to why?

Craig

 

[VMBM]

As an update I am really pleased so far with the sales of the book. It shows there is an interest in this long forgotten series.

Just a question for everyone though. People remember very clearly the NHL's debacles at the 1979 Challenge Cup and 1981 Canada Cup but the 1974 Summit seemed to "fade away." Any thoughts as to why?

Craig

You a millionare yet? I would write a book on Soviet hockey history right away, if I could find a publisher (sure I would )

As far as your question goes, I guess the reasons are: it wasn't the best possible Team Canada and, like with NHL and Canada in '79 and '81, respectively, (WHA's Team) Canada lost the series. I'm not so sure, though, that the 1979 Challenge Cup gets much recognition nowadays either (IMO partly justifiably, partly not quite so). Also, it was only 2 years after THE Summit series, and maybe people just couldn't get into it nearly the same way as in '72.

I have to admit that I'm not so high on the '74 series either. I think that both Soviet hockey and Canadian hockey improved greatly from the '72 and '74 series. The hockey just wasn't as good or enjoyable as later on.

Then again, the '74 series had guys like Hull, Howe, Cheevers... Kharlamov, Tretiak, Maltsev, Mikhailov, Petrov... (not all in their primes or at their best) playing and the series had some unforgettable moments. For example, I don't think that even much better Canadian teams (on paper) ever played a better game than WHA's Team Canada did in the 2nd game of the series (if it wasn't for Tretiak's great play and Canada's less-than-great shooting, they would've scored something like 20 goals).

All in all, the '74 Summit series maybe deserves some more recognition, but how much? I don't know. Where would you place it?

 

[cam0426]

You a millionare yet? I would write a book on Soviet hockey history right away, if I could find a publisher (sure I would )

As far as your question goes, I guess the reasons are: it wasn't the best possible Team Canada and, like with NHL and Canada in '79 and '81, respectively, (WHA's Team) Canada lost the series. I'm not so sure, though, that the 1979 Challenge Cup gets much recognition nowadays either (IMO partly justifiably, partly not quite so). Also, it was only 2 years after THE Summit series, and maybe people just couldn't get into it nearly the same way as in '72.

I have to admit that I'm not so high on the '74 series either. I think that both Soviet hockey and Canadian hockey improved greatly from the '72 and '74 series. The hockey just wasn't as good or enjoyable as later on.

Then again, the '74 series had guys like Hull, Howe, Cheevers... Kharlamov, Tretiak, Maltsev, Mikhailov, Petrov... (not all in their primes or at their best) playing and the series had some unforgettable moments. For example, I don't think that even much better Canadian teams (on paper) ever played a better game than WHA's Team Canada did in the 2nd game of the series (if it wasn't for Tretiak's great play and Canada's less-than-great shooting, they would've scored something like 20 goals).

All in all, the '74 Summit series maybe deserves some more recognition, but how much? I don't know. Where would you place it?

No, I am not rich yet, lol....

I think 1974 was really important. After 1972 the NHL was making excuses like we were out of shape (dah,, you chose to play in September) the WHA guys were not there (again due to a stupid decision on your part) and we didn't know what we were getting into. That last one burns me. All Harry Sinden had to do was pick up the phone and he could have had a detailed scouting report from either Billy Harris (who had coached Sweden in the 1971 WC's and 1972 Olympics and/or Murray Williamson who had coached the US team in Sapparo. Did he? Of course not. Father David Bauer could have given him excellent advise and guidance. Did Father Dave get a call? No he didn't.

What 1974 showed was the Soviets were really good and the NHL was blowing hot air. Team Canada 74 while not as good as the 72 squad was in great shape, superbly coached and prepared (far better so than the 72 squad) and were a really good pro team. And they lost. They were far better than the end result would indicate but they lost. 1974 showed the Soviets were for real.

Craig

 

[VMBM]

No, I am not rich yet, lol....

I think 1974 was really important. After 1972 the NHL was making excuses like we were out of shape (dah,, you chose to play in September) the WHA guys were not there (again due to a stupid decision on your part) and we didn't know what we were getting into. That last one burns me. All Harry Sinden had to do was pick up the phone and he could have had a detailed scouting report from either Billy Harris (who had coached Sweden in the 1971 WC's and 1972 Olympics and/or Murray Williamson who had coached the US team in Sapparo. Did he? Of course not. Father David Bauer could have given him excellent advise and guidance. Did Father Dave get a call? No he didn't.

What 1974 showed was the Soviets were really good and the NHL was blowing hot air. Team Canada 74 while not as good as the 72 squad was in great shape, superbly coached and prepared (far better so than the 72 squad) and were a really good pro team. And they lost. They were far better than the end result would indicate but they lost. 1974 showed the Soviets were for real.

Craig

Yes, the Canadian overconfidence, or should I say cockiness, in '72 is (with the benefit of hindsight of course) rather strange. I believe Ken Dryden also had some first-hand experience of the Soviets, but if he warned the others, I guess they didn't take him too seriously. Still, Canada did come back quite quickly, and there might be at least a little truth in the claim that with the two Bobbys and with better preparation, they would have scored a clear(er) victory. Then again, counter-claims can be made (Tarasov-Chernyshev, Firsov blah blah). Anyway, to put the blame solely on the poor preparation, conditioning and whatnot, is obviously rubbish. The Soviets showed their skills numerous times throughout the years.

Yep, the Soviets were really good already in '74, even though (as I've often voiced the opinion here) I think they got better later on, learning a few tricks from the Canadians too (to put it simply, they got tougher and stronger IMO). There was still a little too much of sloppiness in the Soviet game around '74. Of course, it might be argued that it was WHA's Team Canada that made them look sloppy occasionally, but I don't think that's completely true.

And yes, the series was closer than the numbers indicate.

 

[Dark Shadows]

I uploaded game 4 of this series in my thread by request for those who want to relive it

 

[Hockeynomad]

I uploaded game 4 of this series in my thread by request for those who want to relive it

The first period of that game was awesome. TC scored 5 gems by Mahovlich (37 years), Howe (52 years) including three beautiful gems by Hull (36 years).

 

[cam0426]

Yes, the Canadian overconfidence, or should I say cockiness, in '72 is (with the benefit of hindsight of course) rather strange. I believe Ken Dryden also had some first-hand experience of the Soviets, but if he warned the others, I guess they didn't take him too seriously. Still, Canada did come back quite quickly, and there might be at least a little truth in the claim that with the two Bobbys and with better preparation, they would have scored a clear(er) victory. Then again, counter-claims can be made (Tarasov-Chernyshev, Firsov blah blah). Anyway, to put the blame solely on the poor preparation, conditioning and whatnot, is obviously rubbish. The Soviets showed their skills numerous times throughout the years.

Yep, the Soviets were really good already in '74, even though (as I've often voiced the opinion here) I think they got better later on, learning a few tricks from the Canadians too (to put it simply, they got tougher and stronger IMO). There was still a little too much of sloppiness in the Soviet game around '74. Of course, it might be argued that it was WHA's Team Canada that made them look sloppy occasionally, but I don't think that's completely true.

And yes, the series was closer than the numbers indicate.

The 2 Bobby's sure would have helped the 72 team but one must asusme they would have shown up like the rest of the team - over confident and out of shape. And even an out of shape Bobby Orr would not have kept up with the Soviets when the series started.

Certainly in the first 2 games of 74 Team Canada's game plan worked. Billy Harris wanted a forward back at all times to avoid any 3 on 2 or 2 on 1 rushes and it worked. And in reality if you watch the series, through the entire series (with the exceptions of Games 3 and 5) Canada's defense was outstanding. The problem that occurred in Moscow was outside of the Backstrom/Howe line the rest of the forwards couldn't produce any points. And the defense while giving Gerry Cheevers super defensive support produced very few points. The offense died in Moscow which was a surprise to many who felt before the series that Cheevers was going to be bombarded.

Craig

 

[VMBM]

The first period of that game was awesome. TC scored 5 gems by Mahovlich (37 years), Howe (52 years) including three beautiful gems by Hull (36 years).

I'd say he was ONLY D) 46!

 

[cam0426]

I'd say he was ONLY D) 46!

Gordie had an amazing series especially when you consider he was 46. Three goals, 4 assists in 7 games. He worked the power play, killed penalties, and played a regular shift. Many Canadian stars who were 20 years younger couldn't play as well as he did against Soviet competition.

Craig

 

[cam0426]

1974 Canada Soviet Summit Series

Just as an FYI my book on the 1974 Canada/Soviet Summit series is now available at Amazon.com.

Craig

http://www.amazon.com/Forgotten-Sum...=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1302398589&sr=8-1

 

[jeff m]

Just ordered the book through Amazon last night.

 

[VMBM]

Who is that tiresome dumb*** poster? Ooops, it's me!

Sometimes one should just... shut up.

 

[cam0426]

1974 Canada Soviet Summit Series

Just ordered the book through Amazon last night.

Thank you Jeff. I really hope you enjoy the book.

Craig Wallace

 

[cam0426]

1974 Canada Soviet Summit Series

Part of my research indicates that Team Canada 74 tried very hard to get Bobby Orr to play with them. Sounds like Orr was willing as he missed the 1972 Summit but the Bruins and NHL said no.

Any thoughts as to what impact Orr would have had on the 1974 Summit if he had played for Team Canada?

Craig

 

[jeff m]

Craig,

I just finished the book and really enjoyed it.One mistake was the Czech goalie was Crha not Orha.

The 70's in my opinion was the greatest time for not just Hockey but all sports.I'm probably a little biased because I was 5-15 years old in that time frame.

Jeff

 

[cam0426]

1974 Canada Soviet Summit Series

Craig,

I just finished the book and really enjoyed it.One mistake was the Czech goalie was Crha not Orha.

The 70's in my opinion was the greatest time for not just Hockey but all sports.I'm probably a little biased because I was 5-15 years old in that time frame.

Jeff

Jeff,

Thank you for that. I based that name off of Czech newspaper reports - maybe that is how is name was spelled there?

I am so glad you enjoyed the book!

Craig