GDT: #12: FLYERS at Devils, Friday, Nov. 1, 2019, 7:00 pm ET

[Appleyard]

Ghost was not that good last year after Hak was fired:
CF 50.56%, xGF 49.41, SCF/CA 307/301, HDCF/CA 115/112
Not bad, but certainly nothing that suggests top defenseman.
Part of his problem was being paired with Myers, but if he can't elevate the game of a talented rookie, again, he's nothing special.

It's a matter of perspective, Ghost is still a solid defenseman, Sanheim is a promising young defenseman, but enough with excuses, at some point either a player steps up or they are what they are.

The team from that point onwards was at:

46.87% Corsi
46.9% ExGF

He had the best Corsi and ExGF on the D.

 

[Tripod]

He hasn't been awful, he just hasn't been a top 4 caliber D-man either? And certainly not a core player.

.

It's a matter of perspective, Ghost is still a solid defenseman

So you are saying Ghost is a solid Dman, but not a top 4 Dman. That's what you want your stance to be...he is a solid bottom pairing Dman. Correct?

 

[Tripod]

The team from that point onwards was at:

46.87% Corsi
46.9% ExGF

He had the best Corsi and ExGF on the D.

Proof that context matters. Well done as always!

 

[FlyerNutter]

You're wrong, the Hextall rebuild is starting to bear fruit, people are just impatient, fortunately, that hasn't affected AV or Fletcher yet.
Remember when the Flyers gave up on Bob? How did that work out?
Or Justin Williams and Patrick Sharp to win now?

Look at the roster four years ago, now project the roster four months from now. Doesn't that make you feel better?
It's a work in progress this year, we've seen flashes, we've also seen setbacks.
But it's not like Frost is 19 in the CHL anymore, Rubtsov is actually healthy, and so on.
Players that were 3-4 years away are 1-2 months (Frost, Rubtsov, Myers) or 1-2 years at most (Brink, York, Zamula) away.

Hopefully you are right.

Just me, but I don’t see it. I see a lot of complimentary pieces. I don’t think you win that way.

My faith in this franchise wasn’t high to begin with, I’ve essentially got none at this point. Not a fan of what I see, Hextall’s asinine idea of “competing while rebuilding” is coming home to roost imo.

 

[Striiker]

The clear bias against Ghost and Sanheim by some on this board is disgraceful.

Always making up fake reasons to bash them and ignoring all context. While also making a massive deal about any single mistake they make.

Ive never understood why people will just randomly decide to hate top players on the team. I get people constantly going on about bottom 6/pair guys because they actually give you a reason to.. but our best D or our best forwards? Makes no sense.

 

[FlyerNutter]

The clear bias against Ghost and Sanheim by some on this board is disgraceful.

Always making up fake reasons to bash them and ignoring all context. While also making a massive deal about any single mistake they make.

Ive never understood why people will just randomly decide to hate top players on the team. I get people constantly going on about bottom 6/pair guys because they actually give you a reason to.. but our best D or our best forwards? Makes no sense.

5 years out of a rebuild, and the best this organization has found with a couple of injuries to fill out its bottom 6 is Pitlick and Stewart. Whether that’s talent evaluation, development or acquisition. Continuing to trot out trash like Hagg.

Nothing but pathetic. There is no logical excuse for that in my eyes. None.

 

[Philly Fanatik]

I hope the notion of trading Giroux doesn't enter anyone's mind?
He has to stay in Philadelphia!

 

[FlyerNutter]

I also won’t pretend to understand some of the hate toward the Flyers best players. That’s not a place I’m going to explore.

I’ll only say that my frustration doesn’t lie with them but more so with the notion that the Flyers supposed “best players” aren’t IMHO anywhere near the best players in their position when looking at the whole NHL, outside of arguably Couturier. Your best, have to be able to beat the other team’s best - and this whole win by committee horseshit. I don’t buy for one second.

I’ve jumped off the ledge haha.

 

[Striiker]

5 years out of a rebuild, and the best this organization has found with a couple of injuries to fill out its bottom 6 is Pitlick and Stewart. Whether that’s talent evaluation, development or acquisition. Continuing to trot out trash like Hagg.

Nothing but pathetic. There is no logical excuse for that in my eyes. None.

That has nothing to do with the rebuild. That rebuild gave us the players to form a great team and a lot of our best players, but some of those tools aren’t being used and are instead being blocked by bad players that were both just added and ones that should have been removed long ago.

this teams problem isn’t lacking skill or the capability to put together a great team. It’s that the coaches and GM are preventing it.

Giorux-Couts-TK
Lindblom-Hayes-Voracek
JVR-Frost-Farabee
Raffl-Rubtsov/Vorobyev-Laughton
Plus Patrick eventually

Provorov-Ghost
Sanheim-Niskanen
?????-Myers

That would be a great roster, especially as the young guys continue to improve.

If anyone deserves blame right now it’s the coaching and GM because they’re allowing guys like Pitlick, Hagg, Braun, and Stewart to continue playing like trash and do their damage... on top of the other player usage stupidity.

 

[FlyerNutter]

I hope the notion of trading Giroux doesn't enter anyone's mind?
He has to stay in Philadelphia!

I’m done believing that there will be enough talent here to compete with this mirage of a window that’s apparently aligned with G and Jake. That’s not a slight against them, I love those guys.

I have zero issue with this team moving those 2, as much as that will hurt, and JVR. Funny thing is, even if you had a good deal that helped you for the future you aren’t moving those guys with the contracts they have for anything worthwhile in my eyes. The contention window lies in the future. That’s where my mind is now.

f***ing Christ. This team so desperately wanted to compete now.

 

[landsbergfan]

I hope the notion of trading Giroux doesn't enter anyone's mind?
He has to stay in Philadelphia!

They can't trade the "C", mostly because there is an "NM" in front of it

 

[FlyerNutter]

That has nothing to do with the rebuild. That rebuild gave us the players to form a great team and a lot of our best players, but some of those tools aren’t being used and are instead being blocked by bad players that were both just added and ones that should have been removed long ago.

this teams problem isn’t lacking skill or the capability to put together a great team. It’s that the coaches and GM are preventing it.

Giorux-Couts-TK
Lindblom-Hayes-Voracek
JVR-Frost-Farabee
Raffl-Rubtsov/Vorobyev-Laughton
Plus Patrick eventually

Provorov-Ghost
Sanheim-Niskanen
?????-Myers

That would be a great roster, especially as the young guys continue to improve.

If anyone deserves blame right now it’s the coaching and GM because they’re allowing guys like Pitlick, Hagg, Braun, and Stewart to continue playing like trash and do their damage... on top of the other player usage stupidity.

Man, I love you and you are doing a stand up job trying to keep me even keel - but I’ve jumped a bit. I don’t buy that some of this youth is as great as once thought. I hope you are right. I’ll send you flowers or something.

This blows.

 

[Appleyard]

I also won’t pretend to understand some of the hate toward the Flyers best players. That’s not a place I’m going to explore.

I’ll only say that my frustration doesn’t lie with them but more so with the notion that the Flyers supposed “best players” aren’t IMHO anywhere near the best players in their position when looking at the whole NHL, outside of arguably Couturier. Your best, have to be able to beat the other team’s best - and this whole win by committee horse****. I don’t buy for one second.

I’ve jumped off the ledge haha.

I mean, Giroux is a top 5 LW since he moved there.

Marchand, Ovechkin, Gaudreau, Giroux, Hall, Panarin

are pretty much unarguably the top 6 I feel. And Giroux produces at a similar level to Gaudreau and Panarin with better defense.

And Voracek is top 10 in RW production both by points and PPG over that same period. Is he top 10 amongst RW's? Maybe. Maybe not. But he has a claim.

 

[SuchySays]

That has nothing to do with the rebuild. That rebuild gave us the players to form a great team and a lot of our best players, but some of those tools aren’t being used and are instead being blocked by bad players that were both just added and ones that should have been removed long ago.

this teams problem isn’t lacking skill or the capability to put together a great team. It’s that the coaches and GM are preventing it.

Giorux-Couts-TK
Lindblom-Hayes-Voracek
JVR-Frost-Farabee
Raffl-Rubtsov/Vorobyev-Laughton
Plus Patrick eventually

Provorov-Ghost
Sanheim-Niskanen
?????-Myers

That would be a great roster, especially as the young guys continue to improve.

If anyone deserves blame right now it’s the coaching and GM because they’re allowing guys like Pitlick, Hagg, Braun, and Stewart to continue playing like trash and do their damage... on top of the other player usage stupidity.

Dude, you're so smart!

 

[FlyerNutter]

I mean, Giroux is a top 5 LW since he moved there.

Marchand, Ovechkin, Gaudreau, Giroux, Hall, Panarin

are pretty much unarguably the top 6 I feel. And Giroux produces at a similar level to Gaudreau and Panarin with better defense.

And Voracek is top 10 in RW production both by points and PPG over that same period. Is he top 10 amongst RW's? Maybe. Maybe not. But he has a claim.

I’m going to argue that at this stage of their careers, G and V are going to fall out of those spots.

I don’t see the replacements. I see a bunch of complimentary.

Enjoy your rationality. I have none at this point haha.

 

[macleish1974]

Existential crisis and Aesthetic mess =

 

[Appleyard]

I’m going to argue that at this stage of their careers, G and V are going to fall out of those spots.

I don’t see the replacements. I see a bunch of complimentary.

Enjoy your rationality. I have none at this point haha.

I mean, if talking about age then Marchand and Ovechkin are Giroux's age or older and arguably the best 2 LW's in the game.

We have had 11 games where by every underlying stat Giroux has played at the same level or better as the last two seasons, over which span he has probably been the ~3rd best LW in the NHL.

Considering his ability level and playing style vs historical players the odds are Giroux will still be first line level for 2-3 more years after this.

 

[Philly Fanatik]

They can't trade the "C", mostly because there is an "NM" in front of it

If the management team went to Giroux to discuss the teams’ future...the captain might want to win a cup before he finishes his career!
His NMC is up to Giroux and he sees where the team is...don’t be surprised!!!
BLOCKBUSTER!

 

[FlyerNutter]

It’s funny how things work.

For me perhaps the biggest issue the last few years, has been the inability or what’s maybe a perceived inability of Nolan Patrick to continuously develop.

When this organization lucked into the 2nd overall, I was giddy. It was what they needed most, a true top talent to truly help bridge the gap between what would or will eventually be a declining G and V.

What’s happened to him so far, has been crippling for this franchise imo.

 

[Striiker]

Man, I love you and you are doing a stand up job trying to keep me even keel - but I’ve jumped a bit. I don’t buy that some of this youth is as great as once thought. I hope you are right. I’ll send you flowers or something.

This blows.

Which youth are you starting to doubt?

The only one I ever had any hope for who I’ve kinda given up on would be Morin, but outside of him I think the rest are either really good or still getting better.

 

[FlyerNutter]

Which youth are you starting to doubt?

The only one I ever had any hope for who I’ve kinda given up on would be Morin, but outside of him I think the rest are either really good or still getting better.

Patrick. For me he was the most important of all.

When I say I doubt the youth, it’s not really a knock on them. Nor is it when I question how much longer G and V have left at elite levels. It’s a question of is there enough talent throughout the organization. That’s what I’m doubting.

There is also a piece that comes with properly developing or actually playing said youth. That’s a problem too.

 

[Striiker]

Patrick. For me he was the most important of all.

Personally, I'm not the least bit worried about Patrick, so long as they get this headache stuff under control. As far as his on-ice play goes, he's shown enough of what he can do to hold me over until he can do it more consistently. I believe in his potential and his chances of becoming a top 6 C, so I can be patient while he finds his rhythm.

He's played two years where the first half of each was pretty bad and the second half of each was far improved, but when you look at why he struggled, I think there's enough to give him the benefit of the doubt. First year he was coming off an injury that hurt his offseason training (plus he was a rookie) and the next year it was that absolute disaster before Hak got fired where the whole team was a mess. Now if he's able to rejoin the team in the next few weeks I think people have to give him a while to get back into it before judging him too harshly.

I've also said this before, but this situation reminds me a lot of Brayden Schenn. By which I mean he came to the team with hype and a ton of expectations but didn't quite live up to them immediately, despite showing flashes. A lot of the fanbase got discouraged quickly and maybe didn't quite label him a bust yet, but were on the verge of it. Both times I've had to kind of defend him and say I thought people needed to be more patient because I believe in both players (got called a Schenn fanboy quite a bit too, which seems to be the pattern any time I defend a player )... and look where Schenn is now... 70 point year, then was a big part of a cup winning team, and now he's over PPG so far this year. Sometimes it just takes a little time.

 

[FlyerNutter]

Personally, I'm not the least bit worried about Patrick, so long as they get this headache stuff under control. As far as his on-ice play goes, he's shown enough of what he can do to hold me over until he can do it more consistently. I believe in his potential and his ability, so I can be patient while he finds his rhythm.

He's played two years where the first half of each was pretty bad and the second half of each was far improved, but when you look at why he struggled, I think there's enough to give him the benefit of the doubt. First year he was coming off an injury that hurt his offseason training (plus he was a rookie) and the next year it was that absolute disaster before Hak got fired where the whole team was a mess. Now if he's able to rejoin the team in the next few weeks I think people have to give him a while to get back into it before judging him too harshly.

I've also said this before, but this situation reminds me a lot of Brayden Schenn. By which I mean he came to the team with hype and a ton of expectations but didn't quite live up to them immediately, despite showing flashes. A lot of the fanbase got discouraged quickly and maybe didn't quite label him a bust yet, but were on the verge of it. Both times I've had to kind of defend him and say I thought people needed to be more patient because I believe in both players (got called a Schenn fanboy quite a bit too, which seems to be the pattern any time I defend a player )... and look where Schenn is now... 70 point year, then was a big part of a cup winning team, and now he's over PPG so far this year. Sometimes it just takes a little time.

My concern with Patrick, lies purely with the injuries. How that will allow him to develop, and if the team can trust him to be a consistent piece in the lineup.

 

[Blackjack]

Gusev a healthy scratch. Leading scorer on a team that can’t score. I don’t get it.

I think his possession stats are some of the worst in the entire league. The team has to be embarrassed to do this 9 games into the season, but his play really gave them no choice. NJ fans would probably really be riding him if we weren't distracted by Hall, Subban, Hischier, Bratt, Severson, and Palmieri also playing like utter dog shit. Fun times.

 

[MacDonald4MVP]

Will Stewie play? How about Brauny?