Post-Game Talk: “You’re My Favourite Mistake” Oilers tank game 81 to let AZ close this franchise with a W

[Ol' Jase]

Sorry, but the only comparison between the Oilers and Coyotes from a business perspective that should be taken the least bit seriously, is that awful owners almost took down both franchises. The only reasons we survived Pocklington, is affinity from the community due to our dynasty, and being in Canada. Arizona never had those. They didn't put the people in place to be good enough to compete. You can't blame the fans for not showing up when the organization gave them a reason to in 1 year of their existence.

Sorry, but the ONLY reason we survived Pocklington was a last minute intervention from Gary Bettman to buy the team enough time to meet a mandated season ticket number to get the EIG purchase approval. Even that took the last 1000 season tickets being purchased buy the local Superstore ownership group.

Again, we were hours away from the Oilers being gone forever.

 

[Drivesaitl]

How does "fans clamoring" for something equate to legitimacy?

Phoenix is a top 10 metropolitan market in the US, whether you acknowledge it or not. Under the right circumstances, the NHL could have easily worked, as every single other professional sports franchise has in the region.

The "tears' you're seeing are from legitimate fans of the team, the "uproar" is over the recent ownership's strategic incompetence coupled with political flip flopping surrounding a suitable arena district.

It is beyond shocking to me that any Oiler fan would look upon this situation with any sense of arrogance. The club was literally hours, minutes even, of being lost from the city forever. If any fanbase should feel fortunate for how our situation didn't turn out as this has, it's us.

But, no, instead, we're automatically experts on the nuances of Arizona's situation, equate the hockey team and fans with the disfunction of ownership, and, least surprisingly, go completely smug prick on a fan discussion site where the only vested party that would see the commentary would be Coyote fans themselves.

You may have thought of the Coyote teams as a "joke" since they relocated, but there are a significant amount of people that didn't. An entire fanbase, subset of employees, the club itself.

All these kicking the Coyote fanbase while they're down does is reinforce a predominant belief that our fanbase is generally a bunch of arrogant assholes. It's getting harder and harder to point to examples where this isn't the case.

Did you have these same thoughts when the NHL ripped the teams out of Winnipeg and Quebec?

Phoenix is only recently a top 11 market based on population only, and based on a population level there that is unsustainable economically, ecologically, etc. The notion of a major city in the desert is like an experiment in "If you could sell real estate in a desert I wonder how much people would pay for non arable desert land.

In anycase could be the "smug prick" is the one calling others that but you do you.

 

[K1984]

Nah. A plurality of fans wanted this Arizona team gone decades ago and I'm glad its finally taken place. Nor is this a today argument. i was always against the moving of Quebec and Winnipeg teams to non established markets. Was one of the worst looks for the NHL ever. I think most people my age that have experienced the whole saga from Winnipeg- Phoenix were never in favor of the relocation. It sucked then, it doesn't suck as much now.

"Nobody wants to make the drive" If you live in an urban sprawl area like Greater Phoenix with deplorable public transit you're used to the drive. Seems like the passtime there. All you hear from Phoenix residents is "we're a drive away from Grand Canyon, Vegas, LA, Mexico etc. As if driving away from the place is the state pastime.

It's not about preference, it's about simple time constraints. If you live 45 minutes to an hour away from the arena it becomes logistically impossible to get home from work then to the rink in time for puck drop.

 

[Ol' Jase]

Did you have these same thoughts when the NHL ripped the teams out of Winnipeg and Quebec?

Phoenix is only recently a top 11 market based on population only, and based on a population level there that is unsustainable economically, ecologically, etc. The notion of a major city in the desert is like an experiment in "If you could sell real estate in a desert I wonder how much people would pay for non arable desert land.

In anycase could be the "smug prick" is the one calling others that but you do you.

If you don't understand the only reasons that Winnipeg and Quebec lost their teams, than you have less of a grasp of this situation than I originally thought.

The second point of Metro Phoenix being an "experiment" is just nonsensical.

 

[Drivesaitl]

It's not about preference, it's about simple time constraints. If you live 45 minutes to an hour away from the arena it becomes logistically impossible to get home from work then to the rink in time for puck drop.

In most urban environments going to a game from work forgoes going home from work. It means grabbignga bite on the way and going to the game. A typical drive home for instance in Vancouver is around 60-90mins. Sometimes worse commute. Just as example. Many metro areas involve copious drive times. So does the Phoenix area except that the driving there is deplorable and not getting better.

Could even be that a Metropolitan region with some of the worst public transit infrastructure is pretty poor at people moving anywhere and yet another reason not to have a team there

 

[Ol' Jase]

.

 

[Drivesaitl]

If you don't understand the only reasons that Winnipeg and Quebec lost their teams, than you have less of a grasp of this situation than I originally thought.

The second point of Metro Phoenix being an "experiment" is just nonsensical.

Its more like a real estate sham and always has been. Much like Vegas. If you don't get that you don't grasp how selling unusable land in a desert is simply a cashgrab. In the case of Vegas much of it Mafia and Organized crime oriented sham. In the Case of Phoenix and Arizona more the case of developer legal sham.

60yrs ago hardly anybody lived in the region. Pop was about 200K. The whole "live in the land of the sun" thing is hype camouflage for come live in this shitty desert where if you go outside in summer its like being in a frying pan.

 

[Ol' Jase]

Its more like a real estate sham and always has been. Much like Vegas. If you don't get that you don't grasp how selling unusable land in a desert is simply a cashgrab. In the case of Vegas much of it Mafia and Organized crime oriented sham. In the Case of Phoenix and Arizona more the case of developer legal sham.

60yrs ago hardly anybody lived in the region. Pop was about 200K. The whole "live in the land of the sun" thing is hype camouflage for come live in this shitty desert where if you go outside in summer its like being in a frying pan.

Population of Phoenix, Arizona - 1960 - 439,170. It was the 29th largest city in the US and the fastest growing by far with an annual average growth rate of 15.2%.

You're just making stuff up at this point.

But, yes, these kind of posts don't sound the slightest bit smug and arrogant...

 

[K1984]

In most urban environments going to a game from work forgoes going home from work. It means grabbignga bite on the way and going to the game. A typical drive home for instance in Vancouver is around 60-90mins. Sometimes worse commute. Just as example. Many metro areas involve copious drive times. So does the Phoenix area except that the driving there is deplorable and not getting better.

Could even be that a Metropolitan region with some of the worst public transit infrastructure is pretty poor at people moving anywhere and yet another reason not to have a team there

Vancouver's arena is in the middle of a densely populated downtown (like most arenas). Not close to the same thing. You're making the argument for me.

 

[Drivesaitl]

Population of Phoenix, Arizona - 1960 - 439,170

You're just making stuff up at this point.

But, yes, these kind of posts don't sound the slightest bit smug and arrogant...

100K in 1950. Vastly increased since only due to the widespread marketing of air conditioning itself which creates island urban heat sinks and an unsustainable effect. Phoenix was marketed heavily postwar as were other "sun" locations. In the words of Hunter S Thompson among terrible places that shouldn't exist.

I wouldn't live in a desert in the middle of one of the hottest places on the continent that get to 120F but anybody can make their choice I guess.

So far you've called me smug, prick, and arrogant. Anything else or are you done?

I'd be a prick if I was posting this on the Arizona board. I'm not.

All You're doing is applying your selective standards about what is proper decorum to others.

Carry on I guess.

 

[Drivesaitl]

Vancouver's arena is in the middle of a densely populated downtown (like most arenas). Not close to the same thing. You're making the argument for me.

Vancouver is the very basis of a Suburban metropolis where the vast majority of the population live outside the city proper. But the Lower mainland having realized this developed excellent public transit infrastructure to make commutes from outlying areas more tenable and to reduce reliance on logjammed bridges.

That said Vancouver has increased their Vancouver City population over last couple decades. But the outlying region is still representing most of the metro population.

 

[harpoon]

He's right though. The owner is awful.

He’s not right though, is he. He made a blanket statement that ‘the NHL continues to find the absolute worst owners for their teams’. Later, as if to backstop his feeble claim, he came up with the names Wirtz, Pocklington and Melnyk. Two of those guys are deceased and the other one is in his eighties. They owned their teams in a different era. Melnyk saved the Sens from bankruptcy and possibly losing their team. But I guess he was ‘too cheap’ for the likes of Keith. What a terrible man. Wirtz and Pocklington (for all their failings) delivered winning products for many years until economic factors beyond his control (Pocklington) and senility (Wirtz) caught up with them. By your own words ‘hiring the right people for the job’ is an important factor in judging an owner. Pocklington cannot be faulted on that score. It’s not his fault the Rangers could always afford to pay more. Anyway, a list of three guys does not support the big statement made by Keith. He simply likes to rage against wealthy people. He also completely ignored other recent expansion franchises which seem to be doing well.

Second, the Coyotes have had at least six or seven owners/ownership groups (including being owned by the league itself). It stands to reason that they couldn’t all have been ‘the worst’. There might have even been other factors like an uncooperative local government (oops I shouldn’t say that or someone will start raging about ‘handouts to billionaires’), inferior on ice product, and poor support from fans.

@Drivesaitl seems to be nailing it. You should read his posts again more carefully. Hockey is a winter sport best supported in cities where they have winter. Your idea that any city with a large population will support an NHL team seems suspect to me. How about the Mexico City Banditos? Think that would fly? Warm weather cities seem to gravitate to soccer, football and baseball. Even just having winter isn’t good enough. I live in Japan which has winter and no shortage of big cities. The Asia League is a total joke. They play out of rinks that make Mullet Arena look like a palace. People just don’t care. They’d rather go watch baseball or soccer. This is why I laugh at all the fans who want to keep ‘growing the game’. Growth is not forever. Smart businessmen know when market saturation has been achieved. Sending the NHL to play preseason games in places like Australia or PRC is just a gimmick and a total waste of time.

Finally, yes, it’s on the fans. Build it and they will come sounds good in the movies but the fans in Arizona didn’t support their team. Simple as. Even being propped up by thousands of visiting Canadians wasn’t enough to keep their attendance at the required level. @Drivesaitl has posted the facts for you to see. You can feel sorry for the fans in Arizona if you like. That’s very kind. I won’t shed a single tear for them and I won’t be told otherwise on my own home team board.

 

[Ol' Jase]

100K in 1950. Vastly increased since only due to the widespread marketing of air conditioning itself which creates island urban heat sinks and an unsustainable effect. Phoenix was marketed heavily postwar as were other "sun" locations. In the words of Hunter S Thompson among terrible places that shouldn't exist.

I wouldn't live in a desert in the middle of one of the hottest places on the continent that get to 120F but anybody can make their choice I guess.

So far you've called me smug, prick, and arrogant. Anything else or are you done?

I'd be a prick if I was posting this on the Arizona board. I'm not.

All You're doing is applying your selective standards about what is proper decorum to others.

Carry on I guess.

Not you. The posts. Surely you can differentiate the two.

And it’s these types of posts that only further the reputation of our fanbase.

Again, as an Edmontonian, I am more than a little shocked at anyone claiming gullibility and susceptibility to real estate shams as the primary motivation to live in a place like Phoenix and Arizona in general. You know, the place where 100,000’s of Canadians live annually for half the year to escape our little paradise on earth.

 

[Ritchie Valens]

The NHL pumped tons of money into this market and it failed every time. You just described the virtues of hockey markets and non hockey markets. The Arizona history of support hasn't shown one reason why one should think it should have an NHL team.

You also stated falsely that the most successful seaosn "filled the rink". It did nothing of the sort.

Now tell me if its such a great and fantastic hockey market why good owners didn't step in to save it.

Could just be that it was the worst attended market in the NHL, longstanding. The worst location for an NHL club, period. Last in attendance regularly.

I threw some attendance numbers a few pages back. They were also a playoff team the first 5 of 6 years when they first arrived so it’s not like they were a fresh expansion team that was crap. As I said in that post, their first season there, they were 20th out of 26 teams in average attendance. First year in the city, competitive team and not even near the middle of the pack for average attendance. Meanwhile, their NBA counterpart they shared the building with was pulling in over 18K people on average.

You’ll never be able to convince me either Arizona is a marketable state for pro hockey as the attendance numbers prove that alone.

 

[Ol' Jase]

Vancouver is the very basis of a Suburban metropolis where the vast majority of the population live outside the city proper. But the Lower mainland having realized this developed excellent public transit infrastructure to make commutes from outlying areas more tenable and to reduce reliance on logjammed bridges.

That said Vancouver has increased their Vancouver City population over last couple decades. But the outlying region is still representing most of the metro population.

Dude, I lived in the Lower Mainland up until 3 months ago. Their public transit services only those able to have quick access to the SkyTrain. If you’re in Burnaby or the Tri-Cities, you’re good. If you’re close to a SkyTrain in Surrey, you’re ok. If you’re anywhere else, you’re driving.

It is among the worst traffic conditions in North America.

Metro Van 2nd worst metro traffic in North America | CityNews Vancouver

Metro Vancouver is making a name for itself again. The area has been named the second worst metro area for traffic in North America.

vancouver.citynews.ca

 

[KeithIsActuallyBad]

He’s not right though, is he. He made a blanket statement that ‘the NHL continues to find the absolute worst owners for their teams’. Later, as if to backstop his feeble claim, he came up with the names Wirtz, Pocklington and Melnyk. Two of those guys are deceased and the other one is in his eighties. They owned their teams in a different era. Melnyk saved the Sens from bankruptcy and possibly losing their team. But I guess he was ‘too cheap’ for the likes of Keith. What a terrible man. Wirtz and Pocklington (for all their failings) delivered winning products for many years until economic factors beyond his control (Pocklington) and senility (Wirtz) caught up with them. By your own words ‘hiring the right people for the job’ is an important factor in judging an owner. Pocklington cannot be faulted on that score. It’s not his fault the Rangers could always afford to pay more. Anyway, a list of three guys does not support the big statement made by Keith. He simply likes to rage against wealthy people. He also completely ignored other recent expansion franchises which seem to be doing well.

Second, the Coyotes have had at least six or seven owners/ownership groups (including being owned by the league itself). It stands to reason that they couldn’t all have been ‘the worst’. There might have even been other factors like an uncooperative local government (oops I shouldn’t say that or someone will start raging about ‘handouts to billionaires’), inferior on ice product, and poor support from fans.

@Drivesaitl seems to be nailing it. You should read his posts again more carefully. Hockey is a winter sport best supported in cities where they have winter. Your idea that any city with a large population will support an NHL team seems suspect to me. How about the Mexico City Banditos? Think that would fly? Warm weather cities seem to gravitate to soccer, football and baseball. Even just having winter isn’t good enough. I live in Japan which has winter and no shortage of big cities. The Asia League is a total joke. They play out of rinks that make Mullet Arena look like a palace. People just don’t care. They’d rather go watch baseball or soccer. This is why I laugh at all the fans who want to keep ‘growing the game’. Growth is not forever. Smart businessmen know when market saturation has been achieved. Sending the NHL to play preseason games in places like Australia or PRC is just a gimmick and a total waste of time.

Finally, yes, it’s on the fans. Build it and they will come sounds good in the movies but the fans in Arizona didn’t support their team. Simple as. Even being propped up by thousands of visiting Canadians wasn’t enough to keep their attendance at the required level. @Drivesaitl has posted the facts for you to see. You can feel sorry for the fans in Arizona if you like. That’s very kind. I won’t shed a single tear for them and I won’t be told otherwise on my own home team board.

Imagine if you will that Katz decided not to spend to the cap and prevented Oiler fans from watching home games from the comfort of their own couch. That Senators team could've been something special until Melnyk basically sold off every valuable player to the franchise. Hate Mark Stone? You can thank Melnyk for not wanting to pay him.

Nobody would argue that money isn't important in regards to owning a team. Of course it is, but simply being rich doesn't encompass everything an owner does. Go over to the Flames board and see how Flames fans feel about ownership blocking a Markstrom trade because of the outside chance they had at a playoff spot when they basically sold off every other available UFA. I'll save you the trip: They weren't happy. The owners decided that a tiny bit of playoff revenue (which they aren't getting now) was more important than doing what was best for the team. Murray Edwards is quickly losing fans here in Calgary.

Hell, ask Canuck fans how they've felt about their ownership the last decade or so. I don't think Montreal fans love their ownership either.

Finally, I didn't mention Pocklington. Try lying better. And Wirtz didn't deliver a winning product until after he was dead and gone and his son undid a lot of the nonsense his father put forth. Hawks fans cheered when it was announced he was dead.

Hockey doesn't work everywhere but a winning product attracts fans. Pittsburgh was in dire straits until Sidney Crosby came along.

Man, I actually forgot that Katz was exploring relocation when the new arena stuff was happening. What an awesome guy.

 

[TopShelfGloveSide]

The owners are charged with putting a good product on the ice. The Coyotes throughout numerous owners were not that.

And you're right, you shouldn't need that but it certainly helps. The greatest players in Coyotes franchise history besides Doan never skated a second with the team when it relocated.

Spend 80 million+ to ice a decent team and get rewarded with a half full arena tops?

Owners are partly to blame for sure but so are the fans who never showed up.

 

[KeithIsActuallyBad]

Spend 80 million+ to ice a decent team and get rewarded with a half full arena tops?

Owners are partly to blame for sure but so are the fans who never showed up.

The Coyotes have 3 series wins and 9 playoff appearances in 27 years, with one of those being the play-in series. And that's the only time since 2012 that they've made the playoffs. That's nowhere near "decent". They had one magical year and then the Kings stomped them hard. Basically every other year they missed the playoffs or were a free pass to round two.

Phoenix Coyotes bankruptcy and sale - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Their troubles speak for themselves. Their current owner is being harangued by the NHL for not paying hotel bills. How pathetic do you have to be to not pay hotel bills?

 

[Drivesaitl]

Not you. The posts. Surely you can differentiate the two.

And it’s these types of posts that only further the reputation of our fanbase.

Again, as an Edmontonian, I am more than a little shocked at anyone claiming gullibility and susceptibility to real estate shams as the primary motivation to live in a place like Phoenix and Arizona in general. You know, the place where 100,000’s of Canadians live annually for half the year to escape our little paradise on earth.

Any "reputation" of a fanbase is simply subject to generalization, contriving, etc. Youre the only one on the board today deploring the fanbase here, which I find interesting.

I do flippantly engage in the Vancouver fans are this or Calgary fans are that but its mostly shits and giggles.

Myself I find theres good and not so great people everywhere and I don't categorize myself or fanbases in that way. I'm independent of ego or false virtue gathering.

You really comparing Edmonton, with some of the best arable land in the world, with Glacier fresh water supplied direct by river, with access to everything required here, vsa desert city that has to tap the Colorado river basin just to survive, that is reliant on unsustainable resources and has no similar water supply?

The Great Canadian west was settled as a land of plenty. Rich in resources and anything that can be had. Comparing it to a desert location that isn't even arable is ridiculous.

That said I love winter, love the seasons, and despise heat. I would melt in Arizona.

When they said "go west young man" they didn't mean the desert the easiest place for people to perish, die of thirst, hunger, etc.

 

[Drivesaitl]

I threw some attendance numbers a few pages back. They were also a playoff team the first 5 of 6 years when they first arrived so it’s not like they were a fresh expansion team that was crap. As I said in that post, their first season there, they were 20th out of 26 teams in average attendance. First year in the city, competitive team and not even near the middle of the pack for average attendance. Meanwhile, their NBA counterpart they shared the building with was pulling in over 18K people on average.

You’ll never be able to convince me either Arizona is a marketable state for pro hockey as the attendance numbers prove that alone.

Yeah we're not supposed to look at actual proof or reality. Its the arena location was wrong, it was the wrong type of arena, it was the NHL, it was global warming, it was....

The NHL is finally vacating this invalid hockey market location and it should have happened decades ago. Really the moment it didn't work out in America West Arena was the telltale sign it wasn't going to work there anywhere. I mean that was right DT. So its inane for people to say later it didn't work because of location. Well in a sense they're right. Arizona isn't the right location for NHL hockey and never was.

 

[TopShelfGloveSide]

The Coyotes have 3 series wins and 9 playoff appearances in 27 years, with one of those being the play-in series. And that's the only time since 2012 that they've made the playoffs. That's nowhere near "decent". They had one magical year and then the Kings stomped them hard. Basically every other year they missed the playoffs or were a free pass to round two.

Phoenix Coyotes bankruptcy and sale - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Their troubles speak for themselves. Their current owner is being harangued by the NHL for not paying hotel bills. How pathetic do you have to be to not pay hotel bills?

My point is the owners wouldn’t get a return on their investment. So why do it?

I don’t see what your point is with the hotels? It’s embarrassing yes but it’s probably because the team was literally making no money.

Pretty clear both the owners and fans who didn’t put ANY money into the team are both to blame.

 

[Ritchie Valens]

Yeah we're not supposed to look at actual proof or reality. Its the arena location was wrong, it was the wrong type of arena, it was the NHL, it was global warming, it was....

The NHL is finally vacating this invalid hockey market location and it should have happened decades ago. Really the moment it didn't work out in America West Arena was the telltale sign it wasn't going to work there anywhere. I mean that was right DT. So its inane for people to say later it didn't work because of location. Well in a sense they're right. Arizona isn't the right location for NHL hockey and never was.

There’s a reason why a NHL franchise has failed twice in Atlanta. Yet Gary somehow thinks it’ll work a third time. That’s why I don’t get the “Arizona will be back” mantra. For the few thousand dedicated fans, yeah it sucks for them to lose their team but it never should have been there in the first place. Had to have been hard for the players to play in Guila and look at rows and rows and rows of empty seats and when a Canadian team came to town, the fans in the stands doubled but were cheering against the home team.

My satisfaction in seeing them leave has nothing to do with ill-will towards the fans but is 100% towards Gary and his desperation to keep that team there.

 

[Drivesaitl]

Further to a view that not just a hockey team should not exist in an uninhabitable region. I don't think its logical to live or buy in a place that meteorologists, Scientists, etc feel will be unihabitable soon, and only habitable now with AC.

City becomes world's first area to be 'uninhabitable without air con' - expert

A meteorologist warned that an American city has become "uninhabitable without aircon" due to a severe heatwave and record-breaking temperatures, posing serious health risks to residents

www.mirror.co.uk

122Fahrenheit? Forget it.

 

[Behind Enemy Lines]

He’s not right though, is he. He made a blanket statement that ‘the NHL continues to find the absolute worst owners for their teams’. Later, as if to backstop his feeble claim, he came up with the names Wirtz, Pocklington and Melnyk. Two of those guys are deceased and the other one is in his eighties. They owned their teams in a different era. Melnyk saved the Sens from bankruptcy and possibly losing their team. But I guess he was ‘too cheap’ for the likes of Keith. What a terrible man. Wirtz and Pocklington (for all their failings) delivered winning products for many years until economic factors beyond his control (Pocklington) and senility (Wirtz) caught up with them. By your own words ‘hiring the right people for the job’ is an important factor in judging an owner. Pocklington cannot be faulted on that score. It’s not his fault the Rangers could always afford to pay more. Anyway, a list of three guys does not support the big statement made by Keith. He simply likes to rage against wealthy people. He also completely ignored other recent expansion franchises which seem to be doing well.

Second, the Coyotes have had at least six or seven owners/ownership groups (including being owned by the league itself). It stands to reason that they couldn’t all have been ‘the worst’. There might have even been other factors like an uncooperative local government (oops I shouldn’t say that or someone will start raging about ‘handouts to billionaires’), inferior on ice product, and poor support from fans.

@Drivesaitl seems to be nailing it. You should read his posts again more carefully. Hockey is a winter sport best supported in cities where they have winter. Your idea that any city with a large population will support an NHL team seems suspect to me. How about the Mexico City Banditos? Think that would fly? Warm weather cities seem to gravitate to soccer, football and baseball. Even just having winter isn’t good enough. I live in Japan which has winter and no shortage of big cities. The Asia League is a total joke. They play out of rinks that make Mullet Arena look like a palace. People just don’t care. They’d rather go watch baseball or soccer. This is why I laugh at all the fans who want to keep ‘growing the game’. Growth is not forever. Smart businessmen know when market saturation has been achieved. Sending the NHL to play preseason games in places like Australia or PRC is just a gimmick and a total waste of time.

Finally, yes, it’s on the fans. Build it and they will come sounds good in the movies but the fans in Arizona didn’t support their team. Simple as. Even being propped up by thousands of visiting Canadians wasn’t enough to keep their attendance at the required level. @Drivesaitl has posted the facts for you to see. You can feel sorry for the fans in Arizona if you like. That’s very kind. I won’t shed a single tear for them and I won’t be told otherwise on my own home team board.

The NHL is following the NFL, NBA, MLB, and Premiership League business model to foster a global brand through games in non-traditional markets whether Europe, Asia, or America in the latter case. The NHL is most reliant on gate admission of major North American sports trying to follow the big growth area of diversifying into national revenue. Gate admission will always have a ceiling on it though the NHL reported 97% capacity on 22.5 million fans through the turnstiles with a record $6.2 billion estimated revenue. The real money is in franchising, diversifying revenue through national broadcasting and sponsorships, etc. Decent breakdown here: How Sports Teams, Leagues and Owners Make Money

I don't see any relevance to your false comparison with the Asia league. It's a far inferior league and product so of course it will have sparse interest and attendance. Hockey is growing in participation in the States and we're seeing talent now coming out of non-traditional aka no winter markets as the game's exposure grows and in many cases inspiring youth in fringe NHL markets to pick up the sport.

You also make a good point about the success of the NHL's most recent expansion. Incredible what can happen when you don't knee cap the newbies like old school expansion teams like the Washington Capitals who were brutal forever. But the other salient point is those two franchises built and paid for their own rinks without the public dole. Absorb record expansion franchise fees and still have the financial resources and will to pay for their buildings. As did Vancouver, Toronto, and Montreal. Bettman's a good Simpson-esque monorail salesman to help bad cop drive the threat of relocation for owners (guys like Katz who tried the nuclear option publicly threatening to move to Seattle away from the cozy monopoly environment of a fanbase that filled its building (above league average ticket pricing) feasting on league historic level of sustained incompetence).

Arizona was an abject failure for a lot of reasons. One positive is the NHL actually learned a lesson and returned a franchise to cozy monopolistic conditions in Winnipeg. That helped drive league gate revenue at higher price points (thanks Canada!) and delivered another Canadian market to feed into securing a record Canadian television contract. Both important as the Canadian franchises have traditionally been backbone revenue drivers for the NHL. The league also finally learned hard lessons in the past with mobile home franchise relocations or merger like Colorado 1; Kansas City; Cleveland; Minnesota 1; Atlanta 1 and 2. Instability effects revenue and franchise value.

The team has moved on from Arizona. But it's also clear the League business partners haven't moved on from the Uber-size Arizona market. Less about the actual bums in seats but rather a big market to include in growing the national revenue pie for cartel owners. I'll keep a little empathy for its fans who lost their team. I still hold hard feelings for the Montreal Expos relocation. It's the emotional connect that's the secret sauce to the success of big business sports entertainment.

 

[Drivesaitl]

There’s a reason why a NHL franchise has failed twice in Atlanta. Yet Gary somehow thinks it’ll work a third time. For the few thousand dedicated fans, yeah it sucks for them to lose their team but it never should have been there in the first place. Had to have been hard for the players to play in Guila and look at rows and rows and rows of empty seats and when a Canadian team came to town, the fans in the stands doubled but were cheering against the home team.

My satisfaction in seeing them leave has nothing to do with ill-will towards the fans but is 100% towards Gary and his desperation to keep that team there.

Yeah I'm sure theres decent enough people going there as there is everywhere. I enjoyed the Principe interview with the longstanding fan talking about her families experiences with the team. But I think always in the Phoenix time frame there could have been a look from the fanbase about how tenuous having a franchise can be. Indeed Phoenix was possibly extended longer timeframe of failure than any other NHL club on record. I mean 28yrs. Teams used to get axed quickly if they were failing. Winnipeg got a limited time frame and with a rabid fanbase and not anywhere worse than Mullet lol arena.