Post-Game Talk: “You’re My Favourite Mistake” Oilers tank game 81 to let AZ close this franchise with a W

[K1984]

You can't compare a team with one year of playoff wins to a community whose entire identity is at least in part based off of their team's dynasty from 40 years ago. Sorry. Arizona never filled the rink, because they never laid a foundation of success, so their community never had a reason to buy in and give it a chance. In Canada, that reason is hockey. In half of our Canadian markets, there is a tradition of winning (if you go back far enough, eh Tarana).

They weren't an average team. Look at how often they won a playoff round. Go ahead, count the number of years. Since they moved to Arizona, they had only one year that could be judged as successful. A couple of others that you could say they were average, as they overacheived and made the playoffs playing defense first, trap hockey. They missed the playoffs how many times?

You're trying to compare fans returning to support a struggling franchise, regardless of success due to loyalty, to a team that never gave its community a reason to be loyal to it. They never spent on star players. They never played exciting hockey. They won playoff rounds once. And in those playoffs, they filled the rink.

Sorry, but the only comparison between the Oilers and Coyotes from a business perspective that should be taken the least bit seriously, is that awful owners almost took down both franchises. The only reasons we survived Pocklington, is affinity from the community due to our dynasty, and being in Canada. Arizona never had those. They didn't put the people in place to be good enough to compete. You can't blame the fans for not showing up when the organization gave them a reason to in 1 year of their existence.

This isn't to mention that their actual NHL arena, in an Edmonton context, is located roughly at the northern edge of Sherwood Park. Not the most convenient trek to get to the rink on a weeknight. It also isn't like Edmonton where Oiler fans generally evenly distributed in every part of the city. I listened to an interview with their former CEO a few years ago, and he basically said their heat maps are telling them that their fan base is located primarily downtown and Scottsdale, which is not at all close to the rink in Glendale.

I think a team can work in AZ with the right owner and the right rink located in Scottsdale. Unfortunately for them, almost every business decision they made since inception has been terrible and this is the result.

 

[ManofSteel55]

Foegele has some skill but his hands are below average. He has a nice shot when he utilizes it and is strong on the forecheck when his head is in the game but it's an inconsistent effort level and he's only a 20 goal scorer because he played a bunch of games on the 2nd line.

I do like Foegele but the Oilers can't afford to pay a fairly inconsistent 12-15 goal scorer, which is what he generally is on a 3rd line, $3M+ with term especially when they have an NHL forward with upside and a much cheaper contract who plays a similar role.
I almost feel the same about Kulak but Broberg appears to be a lot less ready than Hollway is so it could be problematic depending on him to hold down a 3rd pairing.

Still... that $3m+ savings that they'd get for swapping out Foegele+Kulak for Holloway+Broberg could come in real handy in yet another offseason cap crunch before the big boy contracts kick in and really shrink the Cup contention window. This season and next, that's their real shot at a Cup IMO so they need to find savings where they can.

I agree. Foegele is a guy who scores goals because he works for them, he isn't a sniper or dangler. He's got an average shot, but he isn't a natural goal scorer. He's fast, and he works hard, and when he is on the ice with offense-based players, that gives him the opportunity to score. He won't score 20 if he doesn't get ice time with guys like Draisaitl.

I love his motor, but let's not forget that we got him because Carolina didn't have room for him at the salary he was going to make. They just didn't, and he's likely going to find the same here next year. Even if he could be a 15 - 20 goal guy for a few more years, he can't drive a line on his own, and he can't set himself up to score, so it has to be a deal that makes sense for the team. In reality, we're probably better off letting him go, plugging Holloway into the role Foegele had this year, and using the cap savings to help elsewhere, like upgrading on Ceci (who I also like, but not on the 2nd pair now that we are a contender).

 

[ManofSteel55]

The NHL pumped tons of money into this market and it failed every time. You just described the virtues of hockey markets and non hockey markets. The Arizona history of support hasn't shown one reason why one should think it should have an NHL team.

You also stated falsely that the most successful seaosn "filled the rink". It did nothing of the sort.

Now tell me if its such a great and fantastic hockey market why good owners didn't step in to save it.

Could just be that it was the worst attended market in the NHL, longstanding. The worst location for an NHL club, period. Last in attendance regularly.

The NHL pumped tons of money into a mismanaged franchise. Again, you can't blame the fans for not backing a team that didn't give them a reason to. You've also shown your lack of understanding on building a market. LA isn't a "hockey market", but they do okay, because they have a history of success. They had a hard time at the start too, with owners having to force Lakers season ticket holders to buy Kings tickets as part of a package to make it work in the early 80s, but after some success, they are a stable franchise, in a non-traditional hockey market. Non-traditional markets can be built to success, but the NHL and the various Coyotes owners bungled that from the start by trying to do it half-assed and only caring about the bottom line, rather than building a winner.

The most successful playoff run had fans going crazy. I stand by my statement that when they had playoff success, their community started to come out. Then they went back to being an boring franchise, winning by getting a one goal lead and trapping, not paying star players to play there.

As per the quality of the ownership, the blame there lays directly at the feet of the NHL. They let the team move to Phoenix without ensuring their ownership was going to run the team properly, and never had a chance to win, aside from the one miracle year where they made the Conference Final (and, again, sold tickets while doing so).

For your last statement, you are looking at the situation far too superficially. Any market that is large enough could be a hockey market if the team develops a history of winning. Florida was last in attendance for a long time too, right there with the Coyotes, back when they were an awful franchise who didn't give their fans a reason to attend and tried to be successful on the back of one superstar player (Bure). Now that they are a good team, with good management, they are competitive, and they are doing much better. They f'ed around for a couple of decades, floundering, but now they are seeing some success, and their attendance is greatly improved because of it. Don't underestimate the power of winning. Arizona, as the 5th largest market in the US, could be a viable hockey market. They just need to tear it down, and make sure the next guy that tries is willing to actually try to win.

 

[Drivesaitl]

For your last statement, you are looking at the situation far too superficially. Any market that is large enough could be a hockey market if the team develops a history of winning. Florida was last in attendance for a long time too, right there with the Coyotes, back when they were an awful franchise who didn't give their fans a reason to attend and tried to be successful on the back of one superstar player (Bure). Now that they are a good team, with good management, they are competitive, and they are doing much better. They f'ed around for a couple of decades, floundering, but now they are seeing some success, and their attendance is greatly improved because of it. Don't underestimate the power of winning. Arizona, as the 5th largest market in the US, could be a viable hockey market. They just need to tear it down, and make sure the next guy that tries is willing to actually try to win.

Curious about this.

What exactly are you basing that on?

LA can be seen as a success but California has too many teams.

In anycase your commentary on boring clubs is off as well. The Yotes were never more compelled to play 2-1 hockey than in the year they had their greatest playoff success. They were winning games on shutouts. They weren't a scoring team. It was not the style of play that was impacting and once again there was negligible if any attendance uptick from the 2012 season.

 

[KeithIsActuallyBad]

The NHL pumped tons of money into this market and it failed every time. You just described the virtues of hockey markets and non hockey markets. The Arizona history of support hasn't shown one reason why one should think it should have an NHL team.

You also stated falsely that the most successful seaosn "filled the rink". It did nothing of the sort.

Now tell me if its such a great and fantastic hockey market why good owners didn't step in to save it.

Could just be that it was the worst attended market in the NHL, longstanding. The worst location for an NHL club, period. Last in attendance regularly.

It's not about money. The Coyotes have been one of, if not the least successful franchises in the history of the league even going back to the Jets days. They've never really had any franchise players worth discussing, and as a result haven't had a history of sustained success with talk of relocation always over their shoulders. There's a metric ton of reasons why they're a failure as a franchise, and inconsistent and often incompetent if not downright apathetic ownership is just one reason.

I certainly agree that they should've been moved ages ago. The writing's been on the wall for more than a decade. But Arizona houses more major league teams than the likes of Utah, Nevada, and Seattle. I go back to the Chicago example I mentioned earlier. They were one of the most irrelevant franchises as the salary cap was being implemented. Funny what a few franchise players as well as... well, not Rocky Wirtz can do for a franchise.

 

[ManofSteel55]

Curious about this.

What exactly are you basing that on?

LA can be seen as a success but California has too many teams.

In anycase your commentary on boring clubs is off as well. The Yotes were never more compelled to play 2-1 hockey than in the year they had their greatest playoff success. They were winning games on shutouts. They weren't a scoring team. It was not the style of play that was impacting and once again there was negligible if any attendance uptick from the 2012 season.

To be fair, that's based on reading it from Arizona fans. It might not be 100% accurate, but even if it isn't, its a huge market and opportunity. If the league does an expansion team there the way they did with Vegas, it would work.

They sold out in the playoffs. That's the key. The fans need a reason to go. Seeing a team win is the reason to go. If the team isn't winning, playing exciting hockey could also help, but they weren't. They were, far too often, a poor team, playing trap hockey trying to win those 2-1 games with only one or two above average players. And when they didn't win, people didn't come. But we saw a glimpse of potential that one playoff year, because the fans were passionate.

All I'm really saying, is stop crapping on the Coyotes fans here. None of this is their fault. It's not their fault their garbage owner is bailing on the team because he doesn't have the skills to actually manage it.

 

[Drivesaitl]

To be fair, that's based on reading it from Arizona fans. It might not be 100% accurate, but even if it isn't, its a huge market and opportunity. If the league does an expansion team there the way they did with Vegas, it would work.

They sold out in the playoffs. That's the key. The fans need a reason to go. Seeing a team win is the reason to go. If the team isn't winning, playing exciting hockey could also help, but they weren't. They were, far too often, a poor team, playing trap hockey trying to win those 2-1 games with only one or two above average players. And when they didn't win, people didn't come. But we saw a glimpse of potential that one playoff year, because the fans were passionate.

All I'm really saying, is stop crapping on the Coyotes fans here. None of this is their fault. It's not their fault their garbage owner is bailing on the team because he doesn't have the skills to actually manage it.

I'm talking dispassionately about it on the Oilers board. Which I'm fully able and allowed to do. I am not stating this on the Yotes board, nor would I, not that anybody would see it, lol

Wow, a team that made it all the way to the Conference finals managed to sell out a few playoff games at low cost. Too bad they didn't any other time. They might still have a hockey club.

Stating matter of fact it isn't much of a hockey market isn't crapping on anything. 28years in the hockey desert has proved it doesn't belong.

In anycase yes, the 5th largest market thing is not close to being true. Not sure why you believed it.

 

[EchoesoftheEighties]

All I'm really saying, is stop crapping on the Coyotes fans here. None of this is their fault. It's not their fault their garbage owner is bailing on the team because he doesn't have the skills to actually manage it.

I don't think anyone is blaming the fans, it sucks their team is being taken away due to circumstances out of their control.

The business side of that organization has been a disaster for 15+ years though and eventually it hits a tipping point. They've had issues for ages, could never secure stable ownership, could never secure a stable arena situation etc. At some point you have to ask why?

And to Yotes fans that are lurking, if you don't like opinions that clash with yours....I'm not sure what you're expecting coming here

 

[KeithIsActuallyBad]

I'm talking dispassionately about it on the Oilers board. Which I'm fully able and allowed to do. I am not stating this on the Yotes board, nor would I, not that anybody would see it, lol

Wow, a team that made it all the way to the Conference finals managed to sell out a few playoff games at low cost. Too bad they didn't any other time. They might still have a hockey club.

Stating matter of fact it isn't much of a hockey market isn't crapping on anything. 28years in the hockey desert has proved it doesn't belong.

In anycase yes, the 5th largest market thing is not close to being true. Not sure why you believed it.

It's almost as if the Coyotes have been largely unsuccessful due to constant changes in ownership, management, and the things that come with it. Stable ownership and a Bedard or McDavid would do a lot for that franchise.

 

[Drivesaitl]

I don't think anyone is blaming the fans, it sucks their team is being taken away due to circumstances out of their control.

The business side of that organization has been a disaster for 15+ years though and eventually it hits a tipping point. They've had issues for ages, could never secure stable ownership, could never secure a stable arena situation etc. At some point you have to ask why?

And to Yotes fans that are lurking, if you don't like opinions that clash with yours....I'm not sure what you're expecting coming here

Yeah, there were POS Oilers franchise comments on the Yotes GDT yesterday. In a game in which our club was letting the yotes win their last game. The Oilers org had enough class to give them the game and we get that kind of comments.

The mere decision to go to Mullet arena and play seasons there was beyond tipping point. It was a pro sports joke. But then the Franchise being taken from Hockey Mad Winnipeg and put in the dead desert was always a joke. As others have said Now Winnipeg Jets can have all their history back.

 

[Drivesaitl]

It's almost as if the Coyotes have been largely unsuccessful due to constant changes in ownership, management, and the things that come with it. Stable ownership and a Bedard or McDavid would do a lot for that franchise.

Would be a waste of a good player. Its almost as if selling hockey in a desert is a not fantastic idea. I'm way past sympathy for this a dozen years ago. If a Conference final wasn't going to resurrect that dead franchise nothing would. They didn't sell any more seats in season after the Conference final. Not even that got them anywhere.

 

[KeithIsActuallyBad]

Would be a waste of a good player. Its almost as if selling hockey in a desert is a not fantastic idea. I'm way past sympathy for this a dozen years ago. If a Conference final wasn't going to resurrect that dead franchise nothing would. They didn't sell any more seats in season after the Conference final. Not even that got them anywhere.

One deep run doesn't erase decades of not even making it past the first round. Sustained success is the key. If the Knights dropped off the map after year one the Raiders would've already run them out of town.

 

[Drivesaitl]

This isn't to mention that their actual NHL arena, in an Edmonton context, is located roughly at the northern edge of Sherwood Park. Not the most convenient trek to get to the rink on a weeknight. It also isn't like Edmonton where Oiler fans generally evenly distributed in every part of the city. I listened to an interview with their former CEO a few years ago, and he basically said their heat maps are telling them that their fan base is located primarily downtown and Scottsdale, which is not at all close to the rink in Glendale.

I think a team can work in AZ with the right owner and the right rink located in Scottsdale. Unfortunately for them, almost every business decision they made since inception has been terrible and this is the result.

America West Arena is In DT Phoenix. Why didn't that work?

One deep run doesn't erase decades of not even making it past the first round. Sustained success is the key. If the Knights dropped off the map after year one the Raiders would've already run them out of town.

So being one of the most successful on ice teams in 2012 season had no effect at all? So in other words even inordinate success on ice did not translate to fans in stands. I knew that going in but thanks for confirming that.

 

[K1984]

America West Arena is In DT Phoenix. Why didn't that work?


So being one of the most successful on ice teams in 2012 season had no effect at all? So in other words even inordinate success on ice did not translate to fans in stands.

Their years at America West were their highest attended. Even in a rink with diminished capacity and obstructed views due to it being a basketball facility, 4 of their top 5 attendance seasons were in that rink, with the other being only the first year at Glendale before a severe drop off after that.

 

[Drivesaitl]

This is the funniest thing. For decades people didn't want the NHL in Arizona. Was always thought of as a disaster location and a joke ever since the relocation from Winnipeg. Ever since fans clamoring to shut down the inept Arizona team and just relocate it or fold it . The whole saga of putting a team there in the first place was a Bettman type travesty.

The NHL finally shuts down the circus and I see all this uproar and tears about it. This is what people wanted but not like this...lol

 

[TopShelfGloveSide]

It's almost as if the Coyotes have been largely unsuccessful due to constant changes in ownership, management, and the things that come with it. Stable ownership and a Bedard or McDavid would do a lot for that franchise.

Shouldn’t need a generational talent to keep you from playing in a 4500 capacity building.

What are the owners supposed to do? They make no money.

 

[KeithIsActuallyBad]

America West Arena is In DT Phoenix. Why didn't that work?


So being one of the most successful on ice teams in 2012 season had no effect at all? So in other words even inordinate success on ice did not translate to fans in stands. I knew that going in but thanks for confirming that.

The Canes went to the Finals in '02. Their average attendance was barely above the Florida Panthers in the following year. Naturally it was only when they won it all a few years later that they become a known product. The same goes for the Ducks the following year.

 

[Drivesaitl]

Their years at America West were their highest attended. Even in a rink with diminished capacity and obstructed views due to it being a basketball facility, 4 of their top 5 attendance seasons were in that rink, with the other being only the first year at Glendale before a severe drop off after that.

I know, I already listed the annual attendance stats. They were getting around 15K at America West. They were not getting capacity or sell outs even in their infancy when they were a novelty. Almost any pro sports org has at least initial success. Especially in the case of a relocation of what was a reasonable club.

In anycase in only 4-5 yrs the attendance at America West had plummeted. I'll say as well that 15K attendance seasons being the franchise high water mark is damning with faint praise. Its telling that even their top attendance is most orgs low point.

 

[KeithIsActuallyBad]

Shouldn’t need a generational talent to keep you from playing in a 4500 capacity building.

What are the owners supposed to do? They make no money.

The owners are charged with putting a good product on the ice. The Coyotes throughout numerous owners were not that.

And you're right, you shouldn't need that but it certainly helps. The greatest players in Coyotes franchise history besides Doan never skated a second with the team when it relocated.

 

[nally]

First round. But the real benefit to them losing tonight and Kings winning, would be that the Knights cross over to the central and have to battle it out with Dallas/Winnipeg/Colorado so we could focus on our old enemy the Kings first, and then the winner of Vancouver/Nashville. I don't expect we have to face Vegas at all if they cross over, I can't see them coming out of that foursome.

This would be ideal, but I believe it's like a 25% chance of happening. Far more likely that Vegas plays us in the first round. Vegas would have to lose to Anaheim and LA would have to beat Chicago. Hope it does, don't get me wrong. LA in the first, Nashville in the 2nd and Winnipeg in the third. : P

 

[Louis Cypher]

Gary’s favourite mistake indeed with how many times he has bailed out this useless franchise over the last 28 years (including having the league control it for a time) just to keep this fledgling team in the desert, trying to disprove what everyone said from day 1: hockey will not work in the desert.

Finishing it in true Gary fashion by having them play in a University arena for 5000 people, he finally pulled his head out of his ass and realized nobody really cares for hockey in Arizona and is putting the Coyotes out of their misery.

Finally.

Serves them right for moving the team from a loyal real fan base.

 

[K1984]

I know, I already listed the annual attendance stats. They were getting around 15K at America West. They were not getting capacity or sell outs even in their infancy when they were a novelty. Almost any pro sports org has at least initial success. Especially in the case of a relocation of what was a reasonable club.

That is the definition of splitting hairs, and again, completely ignoring relevant context to suit your entrenched position in the battle you decided to wage today. There were significant obstructed view issues, which is probably why they only slightly missed complete sellouts on an 82 game average. And by slightly they missed by under 1,000 seats per game.

I don't want to get into another exchange where you spend a significant amount of time shape shifting to explain away facts that don't align with your entrenched opinion, but facts are that it was their best attendance run by far, the arena had significant obstructed view issues (likely why capacity was slightly below 100% on average) and was located not at the opposite end of the city.

Frankly at no point did the Coyotes have an arena that is in any position to sustain long term success. America West was a basketball arena, Glendale was in Glendale, Mullet is Mullet. You can pretend that this isn't a problem all you want, but it is. Arena location is important to any team. Look at Ottawa, their rink is more than fine, but they are clamouring to build a new one because it's in the middle of nowhere and nobody wants to make the drive.

 

[KeithIsActuallyBad]

That is the definition of splitting hairs, and again, completely ignoring relevant context to suit your entrenched position in the battle you decided to wage today. There were significant obstructed view issues, which is probably why they only slightly missed complete sellouts on an 82 game average. And by slightly they missed by under 1,000 seats per game.

I don't want to get into another exchange where you spend a significant amount of time shape shifting to explain away facts that don't align with your entrenched opinion, but facts are that it was their best attendance run by far, the arena had significant obstructed view issues (likely why capacity was slightly below 100% on average) and was located not at the opposite end of the city.

Frankly at no point did the Coyotes have an arena that is in any position to sustain long term success. America West was a basketball arena, Glendale was in Glendale, Mullet is Mullet. You can pretend that this isn't a problem all you want, but it is. Arena location is important to any team. Look at Ottawa, their rink is more than fine, but they are clamouring to build a new one because it's in the middle of nowhere and nobody wants to make the drive.

Florida has the same issue.

 

[Ol' Jase]

This is the funniest thing. For decades people didn't want the NHL in Arizona. Was always thought of as a disaster location and a joke ever since the relocation from Winnipeg. Ever since fans clamoring to shut down the inept Arizona team and just relocate it or fold it . The whole saga of putting a team there in the first place was a Bettman type travesty.

The NHL finally shuts down the circus and I see all this uproar and tears about it. This is what people wanted but not like this...lol

How does "fans clamoring" for something equate to legitimacy?

Phoenix is a top 10 metropolitan market in the US, whether you acknowledge it or not. Under the right circumstances, the NHL could have easily worked, as every single other professional sports franchise has in the region.

The "tears' you're seeing are from legitimate fans of the team, the "uproar" is over the recent ownership's strategic incompetence coupled with political flip flopping surrounding a suitable arena district.

It is beyond shocking to me that any Oiler fan would look upon this situation with any sense of arrogance. The club was literally hours, minutes even, of being lost from the city forever. If any fanbase should feel fortunate for how our situation didn't turn out as this has, it's us.

But, no, instead, we're automatically experts on the nuances of Arizona's situation, equate the hockey team and fans with the disfunction of ownership, and, least surprisingly, go completely smug prick on a fan discussion site where the only vested party that would see the commentary would be Coyote fans themselves.

You may have thought of the Coyote teams as a "joke" since they relocated, but there are a significant amount of people that didn't. An entire fanbase, subset of employees, the club itself.

All these kicking the Coyote fanbase while they're down does is reinforce a predominant belief that our fanbase is generally a bunch of arrogant assholes. It's getting harder and harder to point to examples where this isn't the case.

 

[Drivesaitl]

That is the definition of splitting hairs, and again, completely ignoring relevant context to suit your entrenched position in the battle you decided to wage today. There were significant obstructed view issues, which is probably why they only slightly missed complete sellouts on an 82 game average. And by slightly they missed by under 1,000 seats per game.

I don't want to get into another exchange where you spend a significant amount of time shape shifting to explain away facts that don't align with your entrenched opinion, but facts are that it was their best attendance run by far, the arena had significant obstructed view issues (likely why capacity was slightly below 100% on average) and was located not at the opposite end of the city.

Frankly at no point did the Coyotes have an arena that is in any position to sustain long term success. America West was a basketball arena, Glendale was in Glendale, Mullet is Mullet. You can pretend that this isn't a problem all you want, but it is. Arena location is important to any team. Look at Ottawa, their rink is more than fine, but they are clamouring to build a new one because it's in the middle of nowhere and nobody wants to make the drive.

Nah. A plurality of fans wanted this Arizona team gone decades ago and I'm glad its finally taken place. Nor is this a today argument. i was always against the moving of Quebec and Winnipeg teams to non established markets. Was one of the worst looks for the NHL ever. I think most people my age that have experienced the whole saga from Winnipeg- Phoenix were never in favor of the relocation. It sucked then, it doesn't suck as much now.

"Nobody wants to make the drive" If you live in an urban sprawl area like Greater Phoenix with deplorable public transit you're used to the drive. Seems like the passtime there. All you hear from Phoenix residents is "we're a drive away from Grand Canyon, Vegas, LA, Mexico etc. As if driving away from the place is the state pastime.