McKenzie: “…the #2 pick is very much up for grabs…”/The 2OA Thread

[bernmeister]

I haven't read through the thread lol what is it?
edit: okay I see it, hmm

Zibanejad, Chytil, Skjei, 9th Overall, 26th Overall, 30th Overall for 2nd Overall

Zibanejad, Shestyorkin, Buchnevich, Chytil, 9th Overall, 26th Overall, 30th Overall for 2nd Overall

Those are not best pieces for NY.
I think the deal I suggested some pages back w/Zib+++ was closest of such packages so far

 

[Dan Kelly]

^way too much....ain't happening !

 

[GoldiFox]

^way too much....ain't happening !

"But I've told everybody, it's gonna have to be a package that I'm gonna have to look at and say "WOW, they would do THIS?!?" Otherwise, we are comfortable taking this pick" - Canes GM

 

[Kshahdoo]

"But I've told everybody, it's gonna have to be a package that I'm gonna have to look at and say "WOW, they would do THIS?!?" Otherwise, we are comfortable taking this pick" - Canes GM

What about the whole Rangers franchise with all fans and entire New York City to Carolina for 2nd overall?

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

What about the whole Rangers franchise with all fans and entire New York City to Carolina for 2nd overall?

Hell with that. My taxes are bad enough without adding NYC to it. You'd have to have some MAJOR retention on that.

 

[Chan790]

He says that as if it wasn't enough! Most scouting reports have those 2 neck and neck. Close as that, should be want there to keep the 2 Czech stars together.

Dudley going there. Dudley was our long time pro-scouting, the last year he switched over to amateur scouting. He has been known for subjective decisions.

Combined with Ron Francis taking out of there like that. Francis and company they are good people. For them to leave in a huff...must be major malcontent there. They are not going to run over small stuff.

If Svechnikov is there at 3?? I hope the Habs trade down. As his trade value is high and Habs need help at center and on left side of blueline. I imagine Carolina(Rangers could be an option also as they have depth at young centers and the 9th overall) would like to have our 3rd to keep the Necas/Zadina together and have Svechnikov also. But Canes don't have enough to offer to give up the 3rd? Hanifin alone won't get it done, he went 5th overall and is 3 years older than Svechnikov. Going to take more than him.

I never said Price for the 2nd. You never want to lie or twist the truth like that. People try to believe falseness because that is what they want to hear is how people are lead to mistakes in life and bad judgements. I said Price to Nashville for Rinne and a player, then those players going to Carolina for Hanifin.

Don't like that? Another deal could be we trade the 3rd, to a team like Carolina and Price to Nashville. Re-unites Price and Subban. Rinne ends up in Montreal(as I doubt Carolina wants his contract), with Hanifin and one of Turris or Johnsen. Canes give Nashville a player to even out the trade. If Rinne goes to Carolina that is. For Carolina be getting the 3rd pick in draft and stud goalie going to take more than Hanifin. Montreal gets its L-defenseman and a #2 center. Nashville gets a Vezina goalie and a player from Canes?

Habs could include Pacioretty if get another asset. But would rather deal Pacioretty separate as he will fetch a Nash type return. Which was a first, second and bottom 6 winger like a Spooner. Either now or at the trade deadline. Rather we trade Pacioretty at the trade deadline as that way we get extra 60-65 games out of him. He is in contract year, strong chance he bounces back to 35-40 goal scorer.

I know its your pet theory and you'll refuse to let it go, but only based on what Dundon's said about how his FO will run...there's no way the Canes take *anybody* on the basis of "chemistry" or subjective feelings as Dundon does not believe in them. The Canes organization under his ownership will be run as close to analytical and data-driven consensus as possible. He agreed to hire Dudley as a condition of Waddell taking the GM job; he said nothing about not firing Dudley if he didn't fit how Dundon wants his team and FO run. There is no space for Dudley's subjective feelings unless the data backs them up or he can convince his FO cohort (or Dundon) that the data is wrong.

Ron Francis left/was fired because he was not willing to do the GM role as Dundon envisioned it...essentially as the office manager of a team of specialist employees where decisions are ultimately made either on consensus or on Dundon's desk. There is no final say or decision power for a GM in DundonCanes. RF did not want to give up that power to enact his vision as the architect and "highest boss" on player personal decisions.

The Canes aren't making a trade and are 97%-certain taking Svechnikov.

 

[Dan Kelly]

"But I've told everybody, it's gonna have to be a package that I'm gonna have to look at and say "WOW, they would do THIS?!?" Otherwise, we are comfortable taking this pick" - Canes GM

I don't believe that Svechnikov is going to be THAT good so I guess he'll be making his pick because no one is going to give him a package that's going to knock his socks off.

 

[spockBokk]

I don't believe that Svechnikov is going to be THAT good so I guess he'll be making his pick because no one is going to give him a package that's going to knock his socks off.

Which is exactly why CAR will keep the pick and more than likely just draft Svechnikov. 2OA was completely lucked into by the franchise and the potential “star” there is immeasurably worth more to CAR, a team starving for scoring and someone to put butts in seats, than 3 or 4 good pieces but not “stars”. To consider moving it, any equivalent, likely proven “star” would need to be coming back to CAR. As good as Svechnikov projects to be, no team is going to gamble a sure thing on Svechnikov reaching or not reaching that potential.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

I don't believe that Svechnikov is going to be THAT good so I guess he'll be making his pick because no one is going to give him a package that's going to knock his socks off.

It doesn't have anything to do with how good someone thinks Svechnikov or Zadina or whoever will be. The way to get elite talent is through the draft and the Canes are in a position to pick who they think is the best forward in the entire draft and he'll be at a low cost for 3 years and under the team's control for many years to come as well as being a position of need for them. Sure, he could be a Sam Reinhart (who is currently a 25G, 50P player at 22 years old so not bad), but he could be an elite 30+G, 70+ point player also. If a team wants to trade for the #2OA, they would have to overpay significantly because of those reasons and they would be trading for what the #2OA could become.

I agree with you that nobody is going to give him a package to knock his socks off, which is what it would take. It's his way of saying: "We want to make the pick, but if you want to do something foolish, we'll listen." It's the same every draft which is why no team has knowingly traded out of the top 3 in the NHL draft since 2002. Those picks are very valuable and nobody is willing to give up the ridiculous price it would take.

I mentioned this before, but in 2013 the Canes wanted to move from #5OA to #3OA. The word was that TB requested the #5OA + Jeff Skinner to move up 2 spots. That's what teams ask for that own top 3 picks.

 

[Chainshot]

Hell with that. My taxes are bad enough without adding NYC to it. You'd have to have some MAJOR retention on that.

I was thinking about just how bad traffic would be on the 40-85 corridor.

 

[Mick Riddleton]

Boob Mack is just not relevant anymore, sensational headlines grasping at straws

 

[Yasuo]

Paciorrety+3rd overall for 2nd overall? Could look bad for Mtl if Zadina end up better than Svech

 

[GoldiFox]

I don't believe that Svechnikov is going to be THAT good so I guess he'll be making his pick because no one is going to give him a package that's going to knock his socks off.

Hence why no top-2 pick have been moved in well over a decade.

Waddell was laughing through the interview at the notion that some team would pay what it would require to move the pick. They are more than happy to roll the dice on a Superstar.

If you look at the data it is pretty clear.
- 4 out of 5 of the top goal scorers last year were top-2 picks
- 8 of top 10
- 11 of top 15

Canes need one of those type of guys. They know where to find one.

 

[Howboutthempanthers]

I know its your pet theory and you'll refuse to let it go, but only based on what Dundon's said about how his FO will run...there's no way the Canes take *anybody* on the basis of "chemistry" or subjective feelings as Dundon does not believe in them. The Canes organization under his ownership will be run as close to analytical and data-driven consensus as possible. He agreed to hire Dudley as a condition of Waddell taking the GM job; he said nothing about not firing Dudley if he didn't fit how Dundon wants his team and FO run. There is no space for Dudley's subjective feelings unless the data backs them up or he can convince his FO cohort (or Dundon) that the data is wrong.

Ron Francis left/was fired because he was not willing to do the GM role as Dundon envisioned it...essentially as the office manager of a team of specialist employees where decisions are ultimately made either on consensus or on Dundon's desk. There is no final say or decision power for a GM in DundonCanes. RF did not want to give up that power to enact his vision as the architect and "highest boss" on player personal decisions.

It will be interesting to see how that goes. The Panthers tried just about an identical set up in 2016-2017. It did not go good, at all.
I agree the Canes should take Svechnikov at #2 though.

 

[Hulkacaniac]

All these proposals

 

[Smartguy]

As an oilers fan I’d be tempeted to Puljuarvi the 10th, the canes would be interested in linking him with Aho again, I’m a big Pulju fan but Svechnikov seems more like a pure goal scorer to me which might be a better fit. It might be a tad overpayment so maybe an add back from the canes?

 

[Hulkacaniac]

As an oilers fan I’d be tempeted to Puljuarvi the 10th, the canes would be interested in linking him with Aho again, I’m a big Pulju fan but Svechnikov seems more like a pure goal scorer to me which might be a better fit. It might be a tad overpayment so maybe an add back from the canes?

 

[Brodeur]

How many years in a row same rumors? Haha.

When was the last time trade was made with top-3 pick?

The funny thing is that the top pick was moved in 1999, 2002, and 2003. Each time it involved Rick Dudley who was just hired by Carolina.

That said, in all three cases, he traded down AND still ended up with the guy he intended to pick at #1 (slight caveat in 1999 since he subsequently traded out of the Pavel Brendl pick).

 

[Scintillating10]

I know its your pet theory and you'll refuse to let it go, but only based on what Dundon's said about how his FO will run...there's no way the Canes take *anybody* on the basis of "chemistry" or subjective feelings as Dundon does not believe in them. The Canes organization under his ownership will be run as close to analytical and data-driven consensus as possible. He agreed to hire Dudley as a condition of Waddell taking the GM job; he said nothing about not firing Dudley if he didn't fit how Dundon wants his team and FO run. There is no space for Dudley's subjective feelings unless the data backs them up or he can convince his FO cohort (or Dundon) that the data is wrong.

Ron Francis left/was fired because he was not willing to do the GM role as Dundon envisioned it...essentially as the office manager of a team of specialist employees where decisions are ultimately made either on consensus or on Dundon's desk. There is no final say or decision power for a GM in DundonCanes. RF did not want to give up that power to enact his vision as the architect and "highest boss" on player personal decisions.

The Canes aren't making a trade and are 97%-certain taking Svechnikov.

What did you say something like that for? If you don't know the game why respond at all. You don't have to like my trade offer for 3rd overall but no need to go on nonsense.

If Canadiens can't deal the pick for a top center like Johnasen, hope their plan B is deal the pick to move down to draft a center. Fills the organization need as they been desperate for a center for 20 years. Might as well trade down a couple of slots to 5-7th or so and get an extra 2nd round pick(or its equal in return), than pick him at 3. Then they get the center they want, Kotkaniemi. Plus add another asset. I wouldn't trade no further down than 7th. As chance another team may grab him. If Rangers would give up 9 plus 26 and 30 be interesting though.

Either way if Svechnikov is there at 3?? I see them making one of the above 2 moves. Don't want to build on Russians. They are more temperamental which leads to trouble down the road. High chance he's another Yakupov, Radulov or Galchenyuk.

If the Rangers would give us 2 late first to move down to 9?? Adds first round depth to our farm. I would take Dellandrea at 30. First noticed him in TPG. He is a electric player. He is underrated as playing on bad team. But once with offensive linemates he was different player. Another be Alexeyev, at 26. He played well this year but played hurt a lot, plus in despair as mother was dying. For an 18 year old that is a lot to deal with. He could really come on in next few years.

Another sleeper I like is Iskhakov. His size makes him a shot in the dark. Had a good U18. Has sweet hands, certainly worth the risk. Was thinking about him in 3rd round but extra picks allows us to secure him at 60. Among the younger draftees also, tore up league in scoring last season, and this year averaged almost a point per game in the M. There is something there!

 

[Bryanbryoil]

Would Carolina consider Staal + 2OA for Draisaitl?

 

[2020 Cup Champions]

Would Carolina consider Staal + 2OA for Draisaitl?

Would Edmonton?

 

[Bryanbryoil]

Would Edmonton?

I'm not sure, it would depend on how high we are on the players available at #2. If we think that we could get a franchise winger or defenseman there I think that they may consider it. Staal would be a solid 2C for us even though we downgrade heavily in that position.

 

[Cardiac Jerks]

Would Carolina consider Staal + 2OA for Draisaitl?

No, we wouldn’t need to consider it. The answer would be an easy no.

 

[tradenashnow]

Buchnevich, Skjei, Namestnikov and the 9th overall for the second.

 

[garnetpalmetto]

I was thinking about just how bad traffic would be on the 40-85 corridor.

40-85 would be nothing compared to the nightmares that would be I-440 and I/NC-540.

Would Carolina consider Staal + 2OA for Draisaitl?

No, we wouldn’t need to consider it. The answer would be an easy no.

Yeah, I'd have to agree with Cardiac_Canes here, @Bryanbryoil. I think the problem here is that by closing one hole (Top line C) you're opening another gaping one by trading our best (only?) defensive center. It'd be the epitome of robbing Peter to pay Paul.