Zuccarello sounds off on the Rangers handling of Lundqvist and Himself

[SA16]

Agreed.

He was a nice player. And a great find. But the lore that surrounds his tenure is a tad overinflated.

His best season was 2015-16 when he went 26+35 = 61. And that is more or less the same as what Ryan Strome has done this season. And there are some who are ready to jettison him without a second thought.

That also led the team in scoring and he didn't play with one of the best players in the league.

 

[Irishguy42]

Oh this is rich. Comparing Zuccarello's scoring here to what Strome did this season.

 

[Barnaby]

Agreed.

He was a nice player. And a great find. But the lore that surrounds his tenure is a tad overinflated.

His best season was 2015-16 when he went 26+35 = 61. And that is more or less the same as what Ryan Strome has done this season. And there are some who are ready to jettison him without a second thought.

Good comparison to Strome’s numbers.

It’s also a little tough to criticize your previous team for not investing in you long term when you’re coming off a down year in the first year of what looked like a very questionable contract before the ink dried.

How much of Zuccs contract would Minnesota have to retain in order for for the Rangers to consider a reunion? 40%, 50%? I doubt there’s a team in the league that would willingly take Zucc for 4 years at 32-36 years old for 6 million AAV unless you’re sending another anchor contract.

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

Oh this is rich. Comparing Zuccarello's scoring here to what Strome did this season.

Agreed. Strome's numbers are more impressive

 

[Barnaby]

Oh this is rich. Comparing Zuccarello's scoring here to what Strome did this season.

59 points in 70 NHL games is impressive no matter who you’re playing with.

Last year was his inflated shooting % that was the excuse. This year Panarin is banking the puck off of Strome. Maybe he’s just a good player?

Is Strome a 70 point player? No, but he’s not a 30 point player either and he was going to easily eclipse Zuccs best year.

This just goes to my point earlier about Zucc being overrated. He was a really nice top 6 player, but he wasn’t a star. You can say Zucc was better than Strome, but you can’t laugh it off and say they aren’t in the same class when Strome is coming off a year better than Zucc ever had and still had prime years in front of him.

 

[SingnBluesOnBroadway]

Oh this is rich. Comparing Zuccarello's scoring here to what Strome did this season.

What am I comparing? I'm just using numbers to question who good the best season really is.

 

[SingnBluesOnBroadway]

That also led the team in scoring and he didn't play with one of the best players in the league.

So? It's easy to say that playing with one of the best players in the league tells a full story. Neither Drury, not Gomez, could replicate the production with Jagr that Nylander did. Strome has meshed with Panarin. Is that easier than meshing with a lesser player? Probably. But it's not a given. Panarin is having his best goal-scoring season. Strome having a career-high in assists.

 

[SingnBluesOnBroadway]

Good comparison to Strome’s numbers.

It’s also a little tough to criticize your previous team for not investing in you long term when you’re coming off a down year in the first year of what looked like a very questionable contract before the ink dried.

How much of Zuccs contract would Minnesota have to retain in order for for the Rangers to consider a reunion? 40%, 50%? I doubt there’s a team in the league that would willingly take Zucc for 4 years at 32-36 years old for 6 million AAV unless you’re sending another anchor contract.

Aside for nostalgia, I don't see why they would want him back at this point. Where does he slot in? Ideally, and assuming they retain Fast, you would want to move fast down to the bottom six. In that case do you want Zucc taking minutes away from Buch or Kakko (with Kravtsov and Gauthier also in-house)?

 

[SA16]

59 points in 70 NHL games is impressive no matter who you’re playing with.

Last year was his inflated shooting % that was the excuse. This year Panarin is banking the puck off of Strome. Maybe he’s just a good player?

Is Strome a 70 point player? No, but he’s not a 30 point player either and he was going to easily eclipse Zuccs best year.

This just goes to my point earlier about Zucc being overrated. He was a really nice top 6 player, but he wasn’t a star. You can say Zucc was better than Strome, but you can’t laugh it off and say they aren’t in the same class when Strome is coming off a year better than Zucc ever had and still had prime years in front of him.

I don't know I mean is Conor Sheary a 70 point player or 30 point player? Because he was nearly one with Crosby (53 in 61) and ever since he left there he has 57 points in 141 games. What about Pascal Dupuis who routinely scored in the mid 30s before playing with Crosby and putting up 59 (with almost no PP time)? What about Bryan Rust who was a mid 30s player the last 3 years until he started playing with Malkin a ton this year and suddenly is a point per game player? What about Colby Armstrong who scored 40 points in 47 games as a rookie with Crosby and then never again scored above a 40 point pace?

It's not like this is something we've never seen before. I think Strome likely is a 30 point player when on his own and not played in such a role.

So? It's easy to say that playing with one of the best players in the league tells a full story. Neither Drury, not Gomez, could replicate the production with Jagr that Nylander did. Strome has meshed with Panarin. Is that easier than meshing with a lesser player? Probably. But it's not a given. Panarin is having his best goal-scoring season. Strome having a career-high in assists.

Already looked at this last week. Nylander Y2 didn't replicate Nylander Y1 success with Jagr either. Jagr was getting older and his 5v5 production dropped by the same amount from Nylander1 to Nylander2 as it did from Nylander2 to Gomez. Not to mention Nylander/Jagr Y1 benefited from an outrageous first year after the lockout where league scoring was at a level it has not touched since then.

 

[SingnBluesOnBroadway]

Already looked at this last week. Nylander Y2 didn't replicate Nylander Y1 success with Jagr either. Jagr was getting older and his 5v5 production dropped by the same amount from Nylander1 to Nylander2 as it did from Nylander2 to Gomez. Not to mention Nylander/Jagr Y1 benefited from an outrageous first year after the lockout where league scoring was at a level it has not touched since then.

Ok....

 

[SA16]

Ok....

So I'm saying the Nylander meshing with Jagr thing is a mirage. They had one tremendous year in an insane season with tons of powerplays which also opened up the ice at 5v5. Then Jagr scored 16 less 5v5 points the next year. The year after he scored another 13 less points. Maybe he was just getting older and declining? Why would we attribute the decline to Gomez when the exact same thing happened the year prior with Nylander? Additionally league scoring went from 3.08, to 2.95 to 2.78 and PPs went from 5.85 to 4.85 to 4.28 so Jagr's fall off from Nylander1 to Nylander2 is even worse than it was from Nylander2 to Gomez when you consider that.

Straka-Nylander-Jagr couldn't repeat their production as a line. Why should we believe Panarin-Strome-X will?

 

[Barnaby]

Aside for nostalgia, I don't see why they would want him back at this point. Where does he slot in? Ideally, and assuming they retain Fast, you would want to move fast down to the bottom six. In that case do you want Zucc taking minutes away from Buch or Kakko (with Kravtsov and Gauthier also in-house)?

Yea, I’m not saying I’d be looking for a reunion. My point was just how much Minnesota would have to eat having signed the contract under a year ago for it even to be realistically entertained. I’m speaking more to Zuccs decline in value than a realistic Sean Avery scenario.

 

[Barnaby]

I don’t want to get too far off topic, but I think it’s interesting that Strome has probably played the best hockey of his career since being here. Why do we talk about inflated numbers rather than excellent chemistry? Panarin has a career year. Strome has a career year. Shouldn’t we be celebrating the fact that the 2 guys were looking at putting up 200 points together?

It was mentioned that Dupius put up 59 points with Crosby... so is the smart play to dump Dupuis saying his numbers are inflated or do we say, “Hey, this is a great combination. This works.”

 

[Barnaby]

So I'm saying the Nylander meshing with Jagr thing is a mirage. They had one tremendous year in an insane season with tons of powerplays which also opened up the ice at 5v5. Then Jagr scored 16 less 5v5 points the next year. The year after he scored another 13 less points. Maybe he was just getting older and declining? Why would we attribute the decline to Gomez when the exact same thing happened the year prior with Nylander? Additionally league scoring went from 3.08, to 2.95 to 2.78 and PPs went from 5.85 to 4.85 to 4.28 so Jagr's fall off from Nylander1 to Nylander2 is even worse than it was from Nylander2 to Gomez when you consider that.

Straka-Nylander-Jagr couldn't repeat their production as a line. Why should we believe Panarin-Strome-X will?

I would think you’d rather stick with what’s working rather than re-shuffle the deck. Is Strome a lock for 70+ points a year? No. But I think it’s more likely than not that the chemistry continues.

... and I think you answered your own question. Jagr was getting older and declining. If Jagr was still in his 20’s like Panarin and putting up career years then things probably look a bit different.

 

[SA16]

I don’t want to get too far off topic, but I think it’s interesting that Strome has probably played the best hockey of his career since being here. Why do we talk about inflated numbers rather than excellent chemistry? Panarin has a career year. Strome has a career year. Shouldn’t we be celebrating the fact that the 2 guys were looking at putting up 200 points together?

It was mentioned that Dupius put up 59 points with Crosby... so is the smart play to dump Dupuis saying his numbers are inflated or do we say, “Hey, this is a great combination. This works.”

Well Dupuis put up 59 in 82. Then 38 in 48 (lockout year). Then in 13-14 he got hurt mid year and was replaced by a bunch of guys here and there so I can't get data. In 14-15 he had the blood clot issues come up, was basically replaced by Hornqvist, and he scored 51 poinits in 64 games. So it's not seeming like they needed to keep this working connection when it also worked with the next guy (and many others) too.

I would think you’d rather stick with what’s working rather than re-shuffle the deck. Is Strome a lock for 70+ points a year? No. But I think it’s more likely than not that the chemistry continues.

... and I think you answered your own question. Jagr was getting older and declining. If Jagr was still in his 20’s like Panarin and putting up career years then things probably look a bit different.

I think it's different when in one case the player is already under contract and in the other case you have a player who needs a new contract. I am saying the statement that Jagr could not perform with Gomez is fallacy. Jagr's production declined by just as much between his two Nylander years than it did in his Gomez year yet you never hear talk about that.

 

[Tawnos]

Let's not forget that numbers don't tell you everything. Strome this year might put up equal or better numbers than Zuccarello, but he doesn't drive the play the same way when on the ice. And Jagr might have been declining anyway, but it was also clear that he didn't share the same chemistry with Gomez that he did with Nylander, mostly because their styles didn't really mesh. Don't forget that Jagr played his most effective hockey in 07-08 with rookie Brandon Dubinsky as his center. And, in fact, Jagr played more ES minutes with Dubinsky than with Gomez that year. Renney split Jagr/Gomez because it didn't work very well.

 

[NYRangers16]

The Zucc/Strome comps also need to take into account league wide scoring. The NHL was a very different league when Zucc put up 61 points than it is now. Zucc was an excellent player for us, especially during his prime. The point totals would likely be a lot higher now. But obviously the Rangers made the right call not paying him 6m a year for his mid 30s decline.

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

The Zucc/Strome comps also need to take into account league wide scoring. The NHL was a very different league when Zucc put up 61 points than it is now. Zucc was an excellent player for us, especially during his prime. The point totals would likely be a lot higher now. But obviously the Rangers made the right call not paying him 6m a year for his mid 30s decline.

Dodged a bullet there. I am still shocked that Zuccarello gets the Messier-treatment from some fans. Seriously, the way they talk about him, you'd think he scored a hattrick in game 7 of the cup final for us

 

[NYRangers16]

Dodged a bullet there. I am still shocked that Zuccarello gets the Messier-treatment from some fans. Seriously, the way they talk about him, you'd think he scored a hattrick in game 7 of the cup final for us

I'm a huge Zucc fan and def. felt it when they traded him. I also made it a point to see him in MN in my Zucc jersey after the trade. But I can separate that from whether to give him that kind of contract.

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

I'm a huge Zucc fan and def. felt it when they traded him. I also made it a point to see him in MN in my Zucc jersey after the trade. But I can separate that from whether to give him that kind of contract.

And that's the right way to go about it. I didn't really mind when they traded Brassard or Stepan despite them being my favourite players. It happens. Players are traded all the time. I've survived Karpovtsev, Nedved, Anisimov, Brassard and Stepan leaving the Rangers. I'm sure I can survive whoever they trade next

 

[Machinehead]

Zuccarello and Strome are completely different stories. Strome couldn't find his own zone if you taped it to his forehead and takes like six penalties a game. I'm not sure is offense offsets that. While he wasn't a Selke winner, the same doesn't apply to Zuccarello.

 

[pld459666]

Zuccarello and Strome are completely different stories. Strome couldn't find his own zone if you taped it to his forehead and takes like six penalties a game. I'm not sure is offense offsets that. While he wasn't a Selke winner, the same doesn't apply to Zuccarello.

I know it's a bit of hyperbole 6 penalties a game.

Especially when its more like 1 minor ever three games

 

[Machinehead]

I know it's a bit of hyperbole 6 penalties a game.

Especially when its more like 1 minor ever three games

That was the point, yes.

That's how hyperbole works.

 

[aufheben]

Zuccarello and Strome are completely different stories. Strome couldn't find his own zone if you taped it to his forehead and takes like six penalties a game. I'm not sure is offense offsets that. While he wasn't a Selke winner, the same doesn't apply to Zuccarello.

 

[Barnaby]

Well Dupuis put up 59 in 82. Then 38 in 48 (lockout year). Then in 13-14 he got hurt mid year and was replaced by a bunch of guys here and there so I can't get data. In 14-15 he had the blood clot issues come up, was basically replaced by Hornqvist, and he scored 51 poinits in 64 games. So it's not seeming like they needed to keep this working connection when it also worked with the next guy (and many others) too.



I think it's different when in one case the player is already under contract and in the other case you have a player who needs a new contract. I am saying the statement that Jagr could not perform with Gomez is fallacy. Jagr's production declined by just as much between his two Nylander years than it did in his Gomez year yet you never hear talk about that.

Well it does come down to contract. I’m not saying the Rangers should give Strome 7 mil per, but if you can retain him at a number that a 50 point player is then it’s a home run if he puts up 70. Maybe he takes a bit less thinking he has some stability/security and putting up big numbers with Panarin might lend him that last big deal at 29-30. I don’t think anyone is advocating a 7x7 contract, but I do think there’s room for a beneficial deal - and if he takes it then there’s a very good chance he has 2-4 years better than Zuccs best.