Confirmed with Link: Zibanejad+2018 2nd for Brassard+2018 7th | Part II

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YouGotAStuGoing

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Mar 26, 2010
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Last decade... What top 10 player has not had a contender built around them?

Crosby, Malkin, Toews, Kane, Ovechkin, Kopitar, Thornton, Lidstrom, etc

Give me some names since 2005

What, exactly, is your definition of 'contender'? Because Ovechkin still hasn't made a Cup finals, Thornton waited more than a decade in San Jose before making it, Crosby/Malkin and Toews/Kane are two great players on single teams which is a much different animal and, while Kopitar is good, calling him top-10 is disingenuous.
 

Sens

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What, exactly, is your definition of 'contender'? Because Ovechkin still hasn't made a Cup finals, Thornton waited more than a decade in San Jose before making it, Crosby/Malkin and Toews/Kane are two great players on single teams which is a much different animal and, while Kopitar is good, calling him top-10 is disingenuous.

100+ point teams I consider a contender.
Is expecting Ottawa to put up 100+ points a season with prime EK really to much to ask?
 

BonkTastic

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Nov 9, 2010
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Last decade... What top 10 player has not had a contender built around them?

Crosby, Malkin, Toews, Kane, Ovechkin, Kopitar, Thornton, Lidstrom, etc

Give me some names since 2005

Are we talking about guys who were at one point considered a top-10 player in the league at a given time?

Off the top of my head:

- Kovalchuk
- Nash
- Subban
- Weber
- Gaborik (the team in LA wasn't built around him, he was an accessory on that team after he started declining)
 

MaxTheLimit

Hockey ruins all my personal relationships
Jul 21, 2016
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Give me some names since 2005
Ilya Kovalchuck
Mats Sundin
John Tavares - arguable
Phil Kessel - until the Pens...and it wasn't really built around him when he got there
Taylor Hall
Shea Weber
Oliver Ekman-Larsson

If you think goalies:
Ryan Miller
Carey Price
Corey Schneider

Not saying I disagree or agree with the sentiment, but there are some top quality names there who never had their true shot at a cup.
 

topshelf15

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May 5, 2009
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100+ point teams I consider a contender.
Is expecting Ottawa to put up 100+ points a season with prime EK really to much to ask?
We had 99 two years ago ,Tavares is one ,OEL is another ,Suter,Weber.

As far as us becoming better ,it was on our kids .Guys like Cowen ,Wiercioch,Rundblad was supposed to have us one of the best dcores in the league.Zibby was supposed to be much more than a 45 to low 50 top 6 center.Things happen,rebuilds and going young doesnt always worked out as planned
 

Sens

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Off the top of my head:

- Kovalchuk
- Nash
- Subban
- Weber
- Gaborik (the team in LA wasn't built around him, he was an accessory on that team after he started declining)

Gabby - 06/07 104Pts 07/08 98Pts

Subban - 100 and 110 point clubs before last season

Weber - Played on a team that averaged 101Pts 09/10-11/12

I'll give you Nash and Kovalchuk tho (even tho both went to cup finals after they left the team that drafted them)
 

YouGotAStuGoing

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Gabby - 06/07 104Pts 07/08 98Pts

Subban - 100 and 110 point clubs before last season

Weber - Played on a team that averaged 101Pts 09/10-11/12

I'll give you Nash and Kovalchuk tho (even tho both went to cup finals after they left the team that drafted them)

If you're giving Gaborik credit for 07/08 but not giving Karlsson credit for 14/15, your argument is inconsistent.
 

Sens

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If you're giving Gaborik credit for 07/08 but not giving Karlsson credit for 14/15, your argument is inconsistent.

I'm asking for consistency... One and done does nothing for me... I want multiple years in a row

If Ottawa puts up 100ish points the next three years and EK walks that's ok by me.. We gave it a go
But something like 88-100-91 does nothing for me... That be a waste of the best player in hockey
 

Do Make Say Think

& Yet & Yet
Jun 26, 2007
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I'd much rather make the playoffs and go deep when not expecting much than be labelled a contender and not win a Cup.

A lot of us were around for those 2000's Senators teams that were contenders, a whole lot of good being one did.
 

BonkTastic

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I'm asking for consistency... One and done does nothing for me... I want multiple years in a row

If Ottawa puts up 100ish points the next three years and EK walks that's ok by me.. We gave it a go
But something like 88-100-91 does nothing for me... That be a waste of the best player in hockey

And if both my kids end up dropping out of high school, I'll be disapointed, but I'm not going to raise a stink about future failure when they're currently in 2nd and 4th grade, respectively.

Give it time. You're chastizing a hypothetical future team that doesn't exist yet.
 

Sens

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I'd much rather make the playoffs and go deep when not expecting much than be labelled a contender and not win a Cup.

A lot of us were around for those 2000's Senators teams that were contenders, a whole lot of good being one did.

It was awesome... Dominating through the regular season and watching the growing pains that eventually seen the team challenge for the cup.

Doing it being out spent by 15-20 million dollars too... It was spectacular
 

Sens

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And if both my kids end up dropping out of high school, I'll be disapointed, but I'm not going to raise a stink about future failure when they're currently in 2nd and 4th grade, respectively.

Give it time. You're chastizing a hypothetical future team that doesn't exist yet.

I'm not complaining... A point was brought up and I was just saying if the Sens can't build a contender around EK it would be a failure

I'm hopeful the team can be good
 

MaxTheLimit

Hockey ruins all my personal relationships
Jul 21, 2016
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100+ point teams I consider a contender.
Is expecting Ottawa to put up 100+ points a season with prime EK really to much to ask?

Sorry, I didn't see your qualifications for 'contender' when I was writing up my post. I was going under the assumption that a contender is a team that made it to the finals, at least once. But your definition eliminates a lot of teams. I mean...100 points. I wonder how many teams haven't reached 100 points at least once in the past decade.
 

Do Make Say Think

& Yet & Yet
Jun 26, 2007
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It was awesome... Dominating through the regular season and watching the growing pains that eventually seen the team challenge for the cup.

Doing it being out spent by 15-20 million dollars too... It was spectacular

I remember far more playoff disappointments than I do regular season wins honestly.

Not that I don't think fondly of those days but I think I enjoy cheering for a team that isn't a contender more because all I've known in that sense is the bitterness of coming up short again, and again, and again.

Believing the team is good enough to go the distance (and I'm positive this team, at least on paper, has the roster to go far and even win a Cup if everything goes right, which is required even for "contenders") but not having the expectations that are more likely to get dashed than fulfilled is easier on me.
 

Samsquanch

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Nov 28, 2008
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I'd much rather make the playoffs and go deep when not expecting much than be labelled a contender and not win a Cup.

A lot of us were around for those 2000's Senators teams that were contenders, a whole lot of good being one did.

Not sure how you can say this. You want to be a playoff bubble team that goes on a Cinderella run?

Being a Senators fan from 2000-2008 was incredible fun, even though we didn't win it all.. would you prefer it if we had no success at all?

I'd rather be a consistent contender and potentially failing versus being a pretender and potentially winning.
 

Knave

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Mar 6, 2007
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I feel like we were more of a strong playoff team pre-lockout but not an actual contender.

Post lockout we were a contender for ~2 (maybe 3) years but we were slowly bleeding players while the league was also adjusting to the post-lockout reality. As soon as people started figuring things out (Anaheim accidentally happened upon it, Detroit & Babcock adapted quickly too)... we started getting left behind.

I think right now we're on the cusp of another good core. We just need 1 of our young centermen to pan out and become a legit #1 guy. If that can happen - we can be a yearly playoff contender for a while.
 

Xspyrit

DJ Dorion
Jun 29, 2008
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Problem with Zibanejad is that he is too "pedestrian". If this guy was more dynamic and more of a leader, watch out. But I think he is what he is, a complimentary player who will be good if others are good. It's not in his nature to take over control
 

HavlatMach9

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Mar 17, 2011
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he does take over some games, but obviously he's not consistent at that. Someone mentioned that while he's young, he's played 300 games and at that point, you are approaching your potential
 

ReginKarlssonLehner

Let's Win It All
May 3, 2010
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What, exactly, is your definition of 'contender'? Because Ovechkin still hasn't made a Cup finals, Thornton waited more than a decade in San Jose before making it, Crosby/Malkin and Toews/Kane are two great players on single teams which is a much different animal and, while Kopitar is good, calling him top-10 is disingenuous.

Kopitar is absolutely top 10, imo.

benn
kane
malkin
crosby
ovechkin
karlsson

are the only ones I take over him. He lies in the next tier with the Seguin/Kopitar/Doughty/Tavares/Toews/Giroux/Tarasenko/Price fold.

Though since he is a C and always clutch and consistent in all 3 zones he def cracks the top 10. He's better than Doughty, imo. In fact, when all the stars are firing, he even rivals the likes of Kane and Benn too.
 

Xspyrit

DJ Dorion
Jun 29, 2008
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I think performance was also a big part of it.

Bryan Murray was this team's GM for years.
- Young players were given a very wide berth to establish themselves, basically to the point of waiting until the next young player came and took his job.
- If vets were acquired, it was typically short term (deadline deals, 1-2 year deals).
- Everything was very safe and steady. I would also go so far as to say that asset management was a primary focus over on-ice performance.

Obvious that it was. I don't think people really understand what asset management means. In two of the "worst Murray trades" according to the mass, the Sens actually did really well with asset management.

- Andrej Meszaros was a 23th OA pick
- Meszaros produced 110 pts in 246 games with the Sens and 9 pts in 34 playoffs games
- Turned Meszaros into Kuba, Picard and a 1st
- Kuba (paid less than Meszaros) produced 116 pts in 261 games with the Sens and 2 pts in 7 playoffs games
- Picard produced 29 pts in 92 games with the Sens
- The 1st (+Dean McAmmond) turned into Chris Campoli and Mike Comrie
- Campoli produced 45 pts in 150 games with the Sens and 2 pts in 6 playoffs games
- Comrie produced 7 pts in 22 games with the Sens
- Turned into a 2nd and Ryan Potulny
- Drafted Matt Puempel with the 2nd (as well as an another one)
- Potulny produced 8 pts in 13 regular season games with Bingo and then 26 pts in 23 games in the playoffs for a Calder Cup. He was KEY

ALL THAT with a 23rd OA pick

- Turned a 2nd round pick (64th OA) in 2013 into Ben Bishop
- Ben Bishop won 11 games with the Sens (helping them qualify for the playoffs 2 years in a row when Anderson was injured), 10 with the B-Sens
- Ben Bishop turned into Cory Conacher and a 4th round pick (Tobias Lindberg)
- Cory Conacher produced 25 pts in 72 games with the Sens and 3 pts in 8 playoffs games (big goals)
- Tobias Lindberg turned into a portion of Dion Phaneuf

ALL THAT with a 64th OA pick

Now that the system has been fully replenished in terms of young assets (young players and prospects), the team will focus in turning into a real contender... even if they have to move younger assets (Silfverberg, 1st, Noesen, Lindberg, 2nd, Zibanejad, 2nd)

It's hard to argue with his production. 43 points in his first 49 games, literally from the 1st game of the season all the way to the last game in January.

He was the 16th (tied) leading scorer in the entire league after he played his last game in January. Ahead of Crosby, Kopitar, Ovechkin, Duchene, Kucherov, Thornton, O'Reilly, Sharp, Hoffman, Spezza, Eriksson, Giroux, Stamkos, H. Sedin, etc, etc...

In a season in which we only had five total players score over a PPG during the year, can you tell me why that 4-month stretch wasn't elite?

PyAed6e.png

I always loved facts

I don't see how this is any different than the middle of last season, or the end of last season. Or the offseason.


Or how it's specific to Bobby Ryan, for that matter.

:laugh:

Lots of posters are obsessed with paying cheap for prime years, then getting rid of them in that window where they are still very good (ie selling high). Taking asset management to the extreme. It's like they think anyone over 30 is completely useless. I don't see anything wrong with holding onto good players.

HF mentality = good asset management apparently... but as usual, a bit far from reality

Zibanejad already played 4 seasons for the Sens on low salaries. Now they will get 3 years of Brassard for BARGAIN salary as well. So that's already 7 seasons of return on the investment. God knows what will happen after that.

Maybe Zibanejad is a player they identified as someone they didn't want to pay too much based on points production so they traded him before it happens.

I'm not saying that we are contenders yet. I don't belive that we are.

What I do believe is that with the players that we have signed long term, making an eventual push 3 or 4 years from now will be too late. Now is the time.

We can't afford to waste another 3 years of Karlsson's prime hoping things will just work out on their own, and that all of the help that we need to take the next step will come from within.

Do they really want to win, or not? Moves like this tell me that they are serious about becoming a contender, and I'm much happier with that then the indecisiveness we've seen these last 5 or so years.

Very good post. But disagree with the last part when you say "indecisiveness we've seen these last 5 or so years"

They were not indecisive, the team just was not at the stage of development fans would have liked them to be. They started a rebuild in 2011 by starting to ship out the older players until they finally were one of the youngest teams in the league and certainly the least experienced. Then players like Ryan, Phaneuf and now Brassard and Kelly joined. And other have gained experience. They are now entering the phase of maturity. Results in the next 5 years will determine if the rebuild under Murray was a success or not.

The parts of success the team had in the last 5years (3 playoffs, one round win, one 99 pts season) created a hasty hope that the team was a stage that they were still not in reality. We all got caught.
 

Samsquanch

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Nov 28, 2008
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Very good post. But disagree with the last part when you say "indecisiveness we've seen these last 5 or so years"

They were not indecisive, the team just was not at the stage of development fans would have liked them to be. They started a rebuild in 2011 by starting to ship out the older players until they finally were one of the youngest teams in the league and certainly the least experienced. Then players like Ryan, Phaneuf and now Brassard and Kelly joined. And other have gained experience. They are now entering the phase of maturity. Results in the next 5 years will determine if the rebuild under Murray was a success or not.

The parts of success the team had in the last 5years (3 playoffs, one round win, one 99 pts season) created a hasty hope that the team was a stage that they were still not in reality. We all got caught.

By indecisiveness I meant that the team (management) only had one foot in the pool during this rebuild.

I think that we were all duped into thinking it would be quick rebuild (management included).

The teams success during that period of time may or may not have helped us in the long run. We might have been much better served by bottoming out a few mores times than just 2011 (6th overall), and tanked harder for a top pick.

Winning breeds success, but only if that winning is consistent. Despite winning a playoff series recently, as of right now, it feels like this entire group of guys needs a reboot and to be taught how win, and how to play sound defensive hockey again. We learned nothing from those runs, and didn't get the high draft pick that some of those rosters deserved.

Anyways Im still hopeful that we can do some damage with this group, even if we don't win it all. I feel much more confident in the Sens ability to win in the playoffs with Brassard in over Zibby, so this trade really is a no-brainer for me.
 

Do Make Say Think

& Yet & Yet
Jun 26, 2007
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Bingo winning the Calder Cup also likely played a considerable role in getting management to think we had something good going
 

Caeldan

Whippet Whisperer
Jun 21, 2008
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This thread has sort of diverged away from any Zibby/Brassard specific topic... so going to close it down as it's essentially just a megathread for 'contender' issues at this point.
 
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