Discussion in 'Polls - (hockey-related only)' started by Boreal01, Jun 10, 2021.
Assuming all players are at their peaks, which line would you take?
Why is Big Bert with these guys? He was a solid power forward but never had the consistency.
for me it comes down to the center, as Zetterberg is better than Elias and Alfredsson is better that Bert so IMO Modano is better than Sundin
Sundin is better than modano.
It’s pretty close.
Bertuzzi had a pretty short peak which sort of skews things compared with the extremely consistent careers of the other five.
Because it’s about peaks?
Ignoring straight up player comparisons, I like the two-way ability and smarts of the 2nd line, and while Bertuzzi peaked extremely high for a season and a half, he was also the type of guy to be goaded off his game and into taking bad penalties. He's also the worst playoff performer on the list.
Looking player for player, I like Zetterberg's peak the best, but Alfredsson wasn't far behind, and I prefer Modano to Sundin. Then when you consider the above comments on Bertuzzi compared to Elias, who's really underrated and a great playoff performer, and efficient scorer at his best, I think the 2nd line takes it.
Bertuzzi at his best is still clearly way behind everyone else on the list, save for maybe Elias but Patrik Elias was a big game guy who showed up when his team needed him.
Depends on how small a sample we want to frame someone's "best". Bertuzzi in the second half of the '02 season was the best player in the league, but that was half a season and not in the playoffs.
It was pretty incredible though. Starting from January that year until the end of the season, Bertuzzi had 26 goals and 60 points in 40 games, and led the league in goals, points, ESP, was 2nd in PP points, and was 1 back of the leader in +/- and 2 back of the leader in assists. He had a 7 point lead over 2nd place Naslund and a 9 point lead over 3rd place Kovalev. He also had 49 primary points, so he would have finished tied for 3rd in scoring on primary points alone. Even over the full season, he led the league in points per game, which none of the others did, and finished 3rd in league scoring, which only Elias matched. He was also probably the most physically dominating forward we've seen since then. He hit like peak Ovechkin, but was also impossible to move in front of and behind the net.
He was really good the following season, but more dependent on the PP, and then his game started to fall apart the following season even before the Moore incident. He obviously doesn't belong with these players over any length of time, but for that brief period he was amazing, and as good as any of these guys in the regular season, and probably better.
This is a good question.
It's a bit dependent on whether we're talking about a one-night-only showdown, or building a team for a long stretch of games. Modano's career went in stages, so you're not getting his best offense and defense at the same time. Zetterberg and Elias get a big value boost from their versatility and position-switching, which wouldn't be evident in a single game.
One night only:
Going into a full season with playoffs:
So maybe a slight edge to Zetterberg-Sundin-Bertuzzi in a one-off matchup, but basically a tie across the course of a season?
I'd say you are. His best point finishes are in the Hitchcock years. 50 goals isn't the same in '94 as 2000 and he only had 93 points anyway
Henrik Zetterberg-Mats Sundin-Todd Bertuzzi
This for me. Zetterberg's peak was the highest of the bunch in my opinion. Sundin was a better player than Modano and Alfredsson.
Modano > Zetterberg > Sundin > Alfredson > Bertuzzi > Elias
It's realllly close.
It's not a definitive prime, but I have the 10 best season averages for all 6 players sorted by era-adjusted PPG.
EA*PPG is the only adjusted stat, all of the others are an average of their raw scoring data.
Bertuzzi only had 2 great years, so if any sort of longevity is considered beyond 2 years, then he'll drag his side down singlehandedly.
I guess it depends on how one defines peak but like Regal said Big Bert was an absolute monster for his albeit short peak.
Zetts tips the scales for me here and Sundin was awesome in best on best tournaments as well but while I would take the first group there is no wrong answer here.
Just want to point out that Berts best season was 97 pts, Elias' best season was 96 pts (and no he doesn't have a bunch of low 90's or high 80's to make him better). Alfredsson had one 107 pt season, no seasons in the 90's, 2 in the 80's and 1 right at 80 pts. Zetterbergs best season was at 92 pts, one season at 85 and one at 80.
So at least looking at the wingers, Bert is amongst peers with similar stats.
Also Bert was a beast that had some slick skills and great chemistry with Naslund. If it wasn't for the incident, he would probably get a lot more respect.
Bertuzzi sticks out like a sore thumb because he only had 2 great seasons followed by a huge drop off. He really doesn't belong in a comparison with these other players.
Raw Career PPG stats
* Sundin and Modano's stats are inflated slightly by starting a half dozen years during the tail-end of the video game stat era.
Yeah...but does Berts decline coincide with the incident? If so, it's really hard to hold that against him. When they were together, the Naslund, Bertuzzi, Morrison line was the best in the league and it wasn't because of Morrison and Naslund didn't do it alone.
His 3rd and 4th best seasons were '04 and '06. The issue is that he didn't have much of a track record before or after the incident, just 2 seasons of elite play.
He was playing like crap before the incident. He got a big new contract and after the league started calling him for everything, including his push-off move in the paint on the PP that was unstoppable, he seemed to think he was a pure skill player and stopped doing what made him so successful the previous two years. He wasn't driving to the net, or laying guys out on the forecheck to take the puck. Instead he was trying to stick handle around everyone, or make ridiculous drop passes to no one. He was a lazy, turnover machine in 03-04, who was being carried by Naslund before the hit by Moore. Up to that point, Naslund led the league in scoring with 30 goals and 68 points in 59 games, while Bertuzzi was only 19th in league scoring with 16 goals and 51 points in 60 games, which were flattering numbers for him.
Regardless...in the corners and in front of the net, who would you rather have? Bert and Zetterberg or Alfie and Elias? The speed of the second two might be a factor, but it's not like Bert and Zetterberg didn't play with and against fast players. But essentially I think it all comes down to a factor that the stats can't tell us and that is chemistry. I think the second line seems to mesh better than the first, but if I am wrong, then the first line would be more successful.
Regardless...his line is winning this poll and I highly doubt it's because people think that Zetterberg and Sundin and just way better than Modano, Alfie and Elias.
Close ass poll.
There was a very short time where Bertuzzi played like an all time power forward. If his peak is distilled into this very short period, you have a guy that might actually be better than anyone else on both trios.
I also love Zetterberg's two way peak, so that's why I picked them.
Could go either way.
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