Zetterberg Out of Olympics/Indefinitely

TheMoreYouKnow

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May 3, 2007
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How did Pavel, Hank and Kronwall become winners? They played with winners and learned from them. As of now, I don't see singular stars that could reach the level of Hank or Pavel in this next wave of talent...at worst, they'll be an assemble cast. There's time for one or more of them to emerge.

The talk of trading Pavel is about as bad as talking about tanking. You can't trade players of his caliber away and his work ethic should be kept around for the young players to learn from. I'd want Hank and Pavel to teach them to win but I'd also want them to learn how to work hard and play a complete game.

I think that whole "learn to win" stuff, I don't think that really holds water or else the Isles would have been great through the 80s and 90s and the Habs would have stayed great forever.

It's a convenient explanation for why a Zetterberg or Datsyuk turned out great - but then it's a retroactive argument where we know they are great and look for reasons for it. They might simply have been much more talented than other teams thought.

Jir Hudler played on a team with Yzerman, Hull, Shanahan. Hell, Jason Williams, Boyd Devereaux and Matt Dandenault won a Cup with those guys..did those young players turn into guys who could carry a Cup winner as a result? Of course not, because you're either a good hockey player or you aren't. What seasoned champions did Toews and Kane learn to win from? Robert Lang?
 

Yemack

Registered User
Oct 30, 2007
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I think that whole "learn to win" stuff, I don't think that really holds water or else the Isles would have been great through the 80s and 90s and the Habs would have stayed great forever.

It's a convenient explanation for why a Zetterberg or Datsyuk turned out great - but then it's a retroactive argument where we know they are great and look for reasons for it. They might simply have been much more talented than other teams thought.

Jir Hudler played on a team with Yzerman, Hull, Shanahan. Hell, Jason Williams, Boyd Devereaux and Matt Dandenault won a Cup with those guys..did those young players turn into guys who could carry a Cup winner as a result? Of course not, because you're either a good hockey player or you aren't. What seasoned champions did Toews and Kane learn to win from? Robert Lang?

actually I think this drive to win at any cost is very important to team morale at times. I also think this is kinda unique advantage Wings enjoy.

I just can't agree with trading any of our two pillars. Even if Wings do tank because Datsyuk comes back totally broken man, I dont think Wings will ever trade them. It is both pleasure and privillege as a Wings fan to watch both play in our uniform. I would never EVER support any idea of trading them. If Kenny were to do that, he should hand in his resignation as well.
 

jaster

Unregistered User
Jun 8, 2007
13,086
8,214
I think that whole "learn to win" stuff, I don't think that really holds water or else the Isles would have been great through the 80s and 90s and the Habs would have stayed great forever.

It's a convenient explanation for why a Zetterberg or Datsyuk turned out great - but then it's a retroactive argument where we know they are great and look for reasons for it. They might simply have been much more talented than other teams thought.

Jir Hudler played on a team with Yzerman, Hull, Shanahan. Hell, Jason Williams, Boyd Devereaux and Matt Dandenault won a Cup with those guys..did those young players turn into guys who could carry a Cup winner as a result? Of course not, because you're either a good hockey player or you aren't. What seasoned champions did Toews and Kane learn to win from? Robert Lang?

The idea we're talking about is a big factor in the whole process, it's not a law of physics that applies to every player and every situation equally.

Not every player will benefit the same amount, or at all. And some other players can rise to the top without having grown up in that environment. And no team can sustain such an environment forever. There are other factors that can enhance or detract from such trends.

However, there's no question it's a factor. Winning breeds winning. Coaches and GMs across the board have said as much over the years. We've seen it with the Wings over the past two decades, and we've seen it with other teams in the past.

I'm firmly with Shoalzie. Actively undermining a winning culture would be poison for these kids. Sure, maybe one or two soldier on and become winners anyway (I'd venture Nyquist), and maybe one or two are destined to be losers with poor attitudes, no matter how successful the team is. But as a whole, I'm certain the kids will be hurt by such a lousy change in organizational culture.
 

Shoalzie

Trust me!
May 16, 2003
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I think that whole "learn to win" stuff, I don't think that really holds water or else the Isles would have been great through the 80s and 90s and the Habs would have stayed great forever.

It's a convenient explanation for why a Zetterberg or Datsyuk turned out great - but then it's a retroactive argument where we know they are great and look for reasons for it. They might simply have been much more talented than other teams thought.

Jir Hudler played on a team with Yzerman, Hull, Shanahan. Hell, Jason Williams, Boyd Devereaux and Matt Dandenault won a Cup with those guys..did those young players turn into guys who could carry a Cup winner as a result? Of course not, because you're either a good hockey player or you aren't. What seasoned champions did Toews and Kane learn to win from? Robert Lang?


I'll ask you, did you think they'd be this good?

I think we can all agree Hank and Pavel are showing they're a special breed...there aren't many like them. But you can't tell me playing with the likes of Lidstrom and Yzerman doesn't take them to the next level. To say why can't less talented players reach that level is getting blood from a stone...some have it, some don't. Hank and Pavel definitely have "it". The big challenge for the Wings going forward is finding which of these kids have the "it factor".
 

Bench

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Aug 14, 2011
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I watch hockey for entertainment, not to count trophies from the team I have no actual involvement in.

So trading Datsyuk, one of the most entertaining players ever, would be devastating. I don't care if you get a bunch of 1st round picks that maybe, like magic beans, turn into good players one day. You're sacrificing the here and now and moving a generational talent that brings prestige to the organization and enjoyment to the fans.

Plus, winning teams are more fun to watch than not winning teams. I have fun most seasons with the Wings because they are at least competitive. I'm not a Stanley Cup or tank for 1st type of guy, so moving Datsyuk, holy hell, that would rip me away from watching the Wings so fast.
 

TheMoreYouKnow

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May 3, 2007
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I get the argument "Datsyuk is my favorite player, he's entertaining, keep him for the sake of it." on a personal level, but it's a dangerous path for the team to go down - especially given how rarely we see Datsyuk magic these days and how rarely it turns into wins for the Wings.

I'm a Wings fan, I'm attached to the shirt not the guys who wear it. I loved Shanny but I knew it was time for him to go. Zetterberg is my favorite player now but I'll be a Wings fan when he's gone too.
 

Bench

3 is a good start
Aug 14, 2011
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I get the argument "Datsyuk is my favorite player, he's entertaining, keep him for the sake of it." on a personal level, but it's a dangerous path for the team to go down - especially given how rarely we see Datsyuk magic these days and how rarely it turns into wins for the Wings.

I'm a Wings fan, I'm attached to the shirt not the guys who wear it. I loved Shanny but I knew it was time for him to go. Zetterberg is my favorite player now but I'll be a Wings fan when he's gone too.

But it's not just for the sake of it. It's better entertainment. Datsyuk's hockey IQ is a marvel to watch, at any age. I also think Selanne, Alfredsson, and Jagr are incredible to watch - and all are over 40. Which, as I said, entertainment is pretty much the entire motivating factor behind all my hockey watching. Serotonin levels dumping into my brain, ahhh.

The only danger is that we didn't trade Datsyuk for the next Patrick Kane. Okay, sure. But I doubt that's exactly how such a trade works out, given the Oilers have been picking the best guy ever year and didn't even get a Patrick Kane or Toews. And 5 years of being a basement team would be awful, even if it lead to a good 10 year run later. There's no promise trading Datsyuk leads to that, though. None whatsoever.

So I'll go ahead and hedge my bets that keeping Datsyuk is going to be more awesome than collecting a bunch of mid-level prospects and late round draft picks.
 

Amrcn Ftbll

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Jan 22, 2014
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I just genuinely don't understand how a wings fan could be okay with trading away datsyuk. We could get three and a half kanes and a crosby for him and I still wouldn't want to trade him. He's a part of what makes wings games so fun to watch, his talent and style are one of a kind and I can't think of much that would make giving him up worth it.
 

Bench

3 is a good start
Aug 14, 2011
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I just genuinely don't understand how a wings fan could be okay with trading away datsyuk. We could get three and a half kanes and a crosby for him and I still wouldn't want to trade him.

The problem is, we wouldn't even get that. What bottom basement team is going to trade for Datsyuk? Exactly. So instead you're looking at a bunch of Tatar/Nyquist level prospects and some late 1st round picks from a contender. Whoopity do.

Then we have the honor of watching the team struggle to stay in the bottom 5 of the NHL for the next few years while we try to Edmonton Oiler or Florida Panther our way to the playoffs. No thanks.
 

Yemack

Registered User
Oct 30, 2007
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I just genuinely don't understand how a wings fan could be okay with trading away datsyuk. We could get three and a half kanes and a crosby for him and I still wouldn't want to trade him. He's a part of what makes wings games so fun to watch, his talent and style are one of a kind and I can't think of much that would make giving him up worth it.

actually, I would consider that :sarcasm:

but realistically, no team has three and a half kane and crosby playing in same uniform so it won't happen.
 

jaster

Unregistered User
Jun 8, 2007
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actually, I would consider that :sarcasm:

What's the half-Kane? Kane from the waist up? Or Kane from the waist down? Or Kane cut through another axis altogether? Or just Kane with half a brain? Or a 12-year-old Kane, half in age? Or a Central Hockey League version of Kane, half in skill? INQUIRING MINDS WANT TO KNOW
 

Bench

3 is a good start
Aug 14, 2011
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What's the half-Kane? Kane from the waist up? Or Kane from the waist down? Or Kane cut through another axis altogether? Or just Kane with half a brain? Or a 12-year-old Kane, half in age? Or a Central Hockey League version of Kane, half in skill? INQUIRING MINDS WANT TO KNOW

It looks something like this.

Lpd3PQv.gif
 

bababooeyII

Registered User
May 28, 2013
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Dan Rosen @drosennhl
Sweden doctor Bjorn Waldeback says if Henrik Zetterberg's back stays the way it is now he will be out for the rest of the season.
Definitely not baseless speculation.

Can't you say that about any injury? I'm no doctor but I would also agree that if ANY injury does not improve then said player won't play.
 

Lord Stan 2020

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Jun 29, 2013
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Can't you say that about any injury? I'm no doctor but I would also agree that if ANY injury does not improve then said player won't play.

That is a great quote from the doc. Zetterberg hey doc I cant get out of bed this has never happened. How's the pain ahhh its like 20 times worse than ive ever felt.

Doc prognosis if this doesnt improve Henrik will not play the rest of the year. Geez I wish I went to medical school for that one:)

Next I think we can get something for datsyuk sure we can get a couple guys to equal his scoring but the intangibles? The defense? HELL TO THE NO. The leader ship? Providing the kids the right way to do things? HELL TO THE NO.

So he is not tradeable dont care if is on one friggin leg for his last season. H provides too many factors especially for a long line up.
 
Jul 30, 2005
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I mean, what is location, really
Can't you say that about any injury? I'm no doctor but I would also agree that if ANY injury does not improve then said player won't play.
I think the point is that back injuries don't progress as linearly as other injuries do. They're more like concussions, where it could be weeks and it could be months... and it could be years. Think about how tough it was for Helm. Even his doctors didn't know when he'd be ready to go.
 

silkyjohnson50

Registered User
Jan 10, 2007
11,301
1,178
We shouldn't be giving this guy the attention he's looking for. I mean, he's suggesting to trade Datsyuk for crying out loud. We should just be laughing it off.
 

Brandel*

Guest
lol what is going on here

why would datsyuk even waive his ntc... if he wasnt playing in detroit he'd be playing in russia
 

FlashyG

Registered User
Dec 15, 2011
4,624
38
Toronto
This is a pretty ridiculous idea.

What would we get for Datsyuk that would even slightly compare to what he brings to the team.

He'd return about the same value as Iginla did when he was traded. Datsyuk is the same age as Iggy was when he was dealt, their point totals are similar, both are or were the centerpieces to their teams offence. You'd be looking at getting a 1st round pick and 2 good but not great prospects.

The 1st round pick will be worse than our own pick as well considering we'd be a bottom feeder without him and anyone picking him up would have already been in playoff contention.

In what world would that be helpful for a team that's fighting for a playoff spot. Also they're not fighting for a spot because the east is terrible as you put it, they'd be in the same spot in the west too.
 

Nut Upstrom

You dirty dog!
Dec 18, 2010
3,206
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Florida
What's the half-Kane? Kane from the waist up? Or Kane from the waist down? Or Kane cut through another axis altogether? Or just Kane with half a brain? Or a 12-year-old Kane, half in age? Or a Central Hockey League version of Kane, half in skill? INQUIRING MINDS WANT TO KNOW

Half-Kane equals a dime if memory serves... 10 American cents.
 

Tomas W

Registered User
Oct 23, 2007
7,097
489
Sweden
I have to whine about this. Uuggh, it sounds like Zetta is going to be out for a long time. Not what we needed, exactly the opposite. Uughh! :shakehead:shakehead:shakehead
 

Henkka

Registered User
Jan 31, 2004
31,077
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Tampere, Finland
I'm absolutely against to trade some valuable future pieces for some rental to replace Zetterberg for one season.

I'd rather go with kids as far as we can go and let them eat some playoff experience. That's very very valuable force for future years.

If we fall out of the playoffs, then we draft high. I'll can live with that also. We are 4 points away from the 6th overall, and 6th overall has 6.2% percentage to be 1st overall.

http://proicehockey.about.com/od/prospects/a/Nhl-Draft-Lottery.htm

30th place: 25.0%
29th place: 18.8%
28th place: 14.2%
27th place: 10.7%
26th place: 8.1%
25th place: 6.2%
24th place: 4.7%
23th place: 3.6%
22th place: 2.7%
21th place: 2.1%
20th place: 1.5%
19th place: 1.1%
18th place: 0.8%
17th place: 0.5%

Pretty much for sure our 1st round pick is the last piece we should trade, if he has some chances to be the 1st overall. Or even at TOP6.
 
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