zeke's Official Top-20 Center Rankings

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VoluntaryDom

Formerly DominicBoltsFan / Ⓐ / ✞
Oct 31, 2016
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Nah, I didn’t. Where I put Kadri was pretty much right when giving it more thought. Kadri’s primary assist production isn’t very spectacular. He outperformed his individual xGF by some and shot a relatively high percentage so a bit of unsustainability there. His rel xGF% is -2.4 which is not good. QoC is very high tho so that accounts for a lot of it but I think low end 1c is rather fair.
 

Bounces R Way

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Nov 18, 2013
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I think it's an interesting study at the very least, especially the emphasis on quality of competition. Not a huge fan of p/60 stats but I do recognize they can be useful when observed in combination with other stats. I don't really agree with excluding PP production though. Special teams are such a huge part of not only individual games but success over a season. Having a good PP can be the difference between making the postseason and not for a lot of teams, and having good PP players can be the difference between having a good PP and a bad one.

Generally it seems like EV production is regarded as more impressive or more important than PP production and I can understand the reasons for that, I just wouldn't totally disregard it.
 
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Little Psycho

I solemnly swear I'm up to no good
Feb 4, 2007
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Again, here are the top-20 Center Point Getters over the last 2 seasons (and I mean guys who have been centers the whole time, not just half the time):

1.McDavid 208
2.Crosby 178
3.Malkin 170
4.Backstrom 157
5.Tavares 150
7.MacKinnon 150
8.Seguin 150
9.Kopitar 144
10.Scheifele 142
11.Kuznetsov 142
12.Staal 141
13.Getzlaf 134
14.Matthews 132
15.Barkov 130
16.Trocheck 129
17.Zetterberg 124
18.Monahan 122
19.Eichel 121
20.Kadri 116
20.Bergeron 116
20.O'Reilly 116

So three leafs in the top 20 based on pure, unadjusted "primary stats".

now we know that some of these centers played more games, some less.

some played more minutes, some less.

some played tougher minutes, some easier.

some had better all-around non-scoring stats, some worse.

we even have ways to measure all of these factors.

we can ignore them all, and the leafs will still have 3 top-20 centers based on the last 2 seasons.

we can factor all of them in, and the leafs will still have 3 top-20 centers based on the last 2 seasons.
That's crazy that Kopitar is in the top ten considering he has his worst season in his career in 2017
 

Frank Drebin

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That's the thing, there is no way to know, but we do have predictors. It's pretty crazy to say a top player getting more TOI isn't helpful. It is also crazy to say putting a top player against weaker competition isn't beneficial. It seems your issue here is Matthews, which is crazy to me, he is praised across the league for his skill.
Its not only against Matthews. It's just an obvious hypothetical to test at least the offensive part of the rankings.

If matthews got the same "cushy" minutes as Malkin, does anybody besides Zeke think he'd pace for 45g and 100pts or more during his rookie and sophomore years?

Its not just leaf players though. Couturier at 6? Over guys like bergeron and kopitar?

As for the ice time, do the numbers really tell a story? Does the coach use said player to protect a lead? That would add minutes with limited offensive potential. Does the player benefit from playing on a team with great depth that the coach doesn't have to use them as much as other top line players?

Op complains about ranking players solely by scoring stats, then proceeds to rank players on secondary stats.

Hockey will never be science. Sometimes it's just scouting instinct backed by experience.

Who would be a better fit for Montreal who desperately need a number 1 center: Nazim Kadri (who by all accounts is one of the best 2cs in the league) or Tyler Seguin, who has proven to be a top ten center for the past 5 or so years?

When the results are not only surprising but shocking, the methodology has to be questioned.

In my opinion, to much weight was given to the soft stats, especially corsi. Tough to have good corsi with brutal linemates.
 

leaffaninvancouver

formerly in Victoria
Jan 11, 2012
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I think i've been working my butt off here trying to remove team factors from the equation.

but sometimes it's healthy to take a step back and look at the big picture.

The Leafs have done much better the past couple of years than most "objective" observers predicted. This was their opinion based on their assessment of the quality of the players on the roster.

Yet here we are, after 2yrs of this, and still all these "objective" observers refuse to move the needle for any leafs player, and admit they may be better than they thought. Neither team success nor individual stats seem to have any impact on people's perception of the leafs players. No matter what happens, Matthews is not a franchise player, marner and nylander are good but not great one dimensional wingers, kadri is a 2/3 center, and morgan rielly is not even a top pair dman. it's weird, no?

I mean, why are we even talking about the leafs here, really? this thread isn't about the leafs.

You’ve ran pretty much every calculation people have asked and Kadri still winds up in the top 20.

At some point people really should stop acting like you’re manipulating data.
 
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BoredBrandonPridham

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But you can register a corsi event without scoring a goal.

See where I'm going here?

One is directly related to scoring goals and winning games. One is not.

Don’t worry, I know exactly what you’re saying. But your view on hockey is so simplistic and pointless then that there is no need for further discussion. Tbh not sure why you come into a thread premised on analytics, just go press the sort by points table header on nhl.com and delete your hfboards account.
 

WTFMAN99

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Good piece, I would probably drop Toews and put Tavares up a touch but solid work
 

Frank Drebin

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Don’t worry, I know exactly what you’re saying. But your view on hockey is so simplistic and pointless then that there is no need for further discussion. Tbh not sure why you come into a thread premised on analytics, just go press the sort by points table header on nhl.com and delete your hfboards account.

How about:
There is a forum here for number crunching, it's called "by the numbers"

Go be really smart over there
 
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Heritage

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Jan 17, 2016
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Ton of work put in by Zeke for this list.

I have seen far worse lists put out by supposedly more "professional" sources.

Nice work!
 

ER89

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Jul 25, 2018
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-Arizona hired one of these types. John Chayka, 29 years old, youngest GM in NHL history who ran a company called stathletes, an NHL player analysis website prior to becoming GM. Arizona is still arguably the worst team in the league in the worst division in the league and has gotten worse with his "stat" metrics.
And we hired dubas. Pretty happy with that result. Picking and choosing is all fun and games until someone can come in and shit all over your point. Like this.
 

SpinningEdge

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Feb 12, 2015
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Awful list. Just awful.

Malkin 15 is laughable - and Kuzy not even top 20 is laughable.

Anyone can create a list to look how they want if they include just what they want and don’t include other parts of the game.
 
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