Dipsy Doodle
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Not only does that ignore the time he spent with Kessel - a P/G player in his own right - it's still more time than his play warranted.
ZAR
- Thread starter BronzeSpruce
- Start date
Not only does that ignore the time he spent with Kessel - a P/G player in his own right - it's still more time than his play warranted.
Dipsy Doodle
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I didn't forget anything. Blueger should have been in the line-up over ZAR each and every playoff game.
AJ's speed was contributing something, which is more than anyone can say for ZAR's playoff track record.
Gladly. Bennett's career was derailed by injuries.
Before they took their toll, he was more productive than ZAR as a freshman/sophomore in college (psst...that's why Bennett was signed to an NHL contract after just over 1 full college season while ZAR went for the full 4-year ride) and more productive in the NHL despite being far younger.
ZeroPucksGiven
Registered User
- Feb 28, 2017
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Weird that a person who only has a limited number of posts has used them all regarding 1 particular player
Let’s cut to the chase here. What is your hockey resume? What knowledge do you carry of the sport that vaults your player assessment above that of the entire Penguins organization?
Tell me Blueger and Johnson were more skilled and better than ZAR at the college and then the AHL level...
Was hoping you’d have done a better job with it...your gift of understatement is grossly overstated...
What makes you think that ZAR wasn’t offered prior to his Junior or Senior year but opted, instead, to stay in college?
Why is that weird? It was the top thread of the forum with the most recent posts...
On the other hand, I need to keep in mind that no matter where you go on the Internet, paranoia and CTs will follow...
Dipsy Doodle
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Believe it or not, the Pens are not infallible despite a wealth of professional experience. They signed Jack Johnson to a 5 year deal.
What qualified amateur fans who panned the move to vault their player assessment over that of the entire Pens organization? Watching the game with a critical eye? Understanding that signing a vet who's stunk by every metric for the last half-decade to a 5 year deal is ripe for regret?
Fans aren't always right, but executives aren't immune from getting married to certain types of players. ZAR fits that mold.
I can tell you that they're better suited to helping the Pens right now than ZAR, because they play with speed and aren't routinely promoted out of their depth.
So much for getting the last word.
Bennett had pedigree, and both outproduced and outplayed ZAR at every level prior to injuries taking their toll. The results are there for anyone to see. I'll leave the hypotheticals about what ZAR might have been offered to you.
The process of signing an NHL UFA and a NCCA UFA are in no ways similar and cannot be compared.
JJ had a body of work and was presumably scouted or observed over the course of NHL seasons by the NHL level scouting staff. It was at that level that a determination was made that he could fit into the Pens’ system.
From what I saw of his play, he may not have been a great signing but he wasn’t as bad of a signing as you iconoclastic yinzers made him out to be. His salary ($3.25MM AAV) is less than what he made in Columbus and in line with what his experience merited. The only point you might have is the length of the contract which isn’t guaranteed anyway.
An NCAA player undergoes a different process of evaluation in which Hockley Ops/Player Development play a much greater role. A determination is made based upon developmental potential and not a body of work.
That said, I wish that all of my years of playing, coaching, being a USHL scout and USAHockey evaluator in my District enabled me to take three players and determine that one with 6 games, 5min TOI, 2 assists and routinely ragdolled would be a better contributor than a player with 43 games, 5th in hits on the team and with nearly .5 point a game. We won’t even consider the fact that they had half of one season and a third of another on the same team and one clearly outplayed the other.
I also wish that my eye were such that I could trick my brain into believing that one player, e.g. Blueger, was even a better skater - let alone faster skater; you do know that there is a difference? - than another e.g. ZAR when the evidence clearly points the other way.
Go watch the OT game winning goal in Game 1 v Islanders. Who is that coming off the bench, catching up to the play and breaking up the 2 on 1 that most certainly was about to result in a goal because the Defenseman played the shooter and not the pass. Who is that that wearing #46 who caught up to two of the fastest Islanders and managed to take Eberle out of the play? He did this despite coming back from a hip injury that had kept him from skating.
And, as I said, you should have done a better job with that last word. You are using one determinant and one determinant alone in re Bennett and Aston-Reese and that is points. Yet you ignore that same determinant when comparing ZAR to Johnson or Blueger.
As for hypotheticals. There was a lot of buzz around ZAR after he led Northeastern to the HockeyEast Championship his Junior year. You should read SB Nation. They evaluate NCAA free agents every year. There are also similar articles on USCHO.
Dipsy Doodle
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I didn't compare them. You asked what qualified me to break ranks with the professionals in the Pens org - ironically while at the same time casting doubt on their prospect ranking in another thread - and I showed you precisely why professionals can and should be questioned.
Johnson was every bit as bad as advertised. The eye test and underlying numbers bear this out.
The Pens brass thought they knew better and risked plenty to do it. That was a critical unforced error, and very poor risk management.
Yes, and Blueger is both better and faster. This is not a minority opinion, nor is it refuted by your anecdotal evidence. ZAR moves like a dump truck, which is why he can't pressure anyone on the forecheck.
Frankly, if you think JJ wasn't a godawful signing and ZAR is a better or faster skater than Blueger, I'm not giving much credence to your evaluation skills no matter what credentials you want to post on a message board. Hell, you said Sprong was given several opportunities in our top 6 and failed miserably, and that is objectively false.
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Fordy
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- May 28, 2008
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looks like the same patterns are occurring again
the pens go through an upswing. moves are panning out, the coach is pressing the right buttons and playing the right players in the right positions
that stops happening because every coach has an expiration date
we keep them longer than is wise
they start playing favorites, pushing line combos that don’t make sense, and playing certain players over others in defiance of all results
but some posters refuse to see it. and insist there must be some higher logic we simply can’t see. after all we just won a cup X years ago
this goes on for probably 3 years until ownership has enough and refreshes the staff
in my limited observation, the wisdom of the hf crowd is about as right as any given nhl coach in a given year. i’ve seen on multiple occasions lines first suggested on this board eventually be tried in a game and succeed. not always, but more than 50/50
a lot of the time we’re just asking/begging them to return to previous combinations where something positive was seen. and a lot of the time, they do return to it, just once their backs are against the wall
that says everything to me. it’s a pattern that will continue to play out as long as the nhl is such a regressive league coached mainly by former players (and former grunts at that)
blueger should, quite obviously, have played over zar. he didn’t because zar is one of sullys favorites/he also doesn’t seem to like blueger for basically no reason
i don’t find this controversial in the slightest
the pens go through an upswing. moves are panning out, the coach is pressing the right buttons and playing the right players in the right positions
that stops happening because every coach has an expiration date
we keep them longer than is wise
they start playing favorites, pushing line combos that don’t make sense, and playing certain players over others in defiance of all results
but some posters refuse to see it. and insist there must be some higher logic we simply can’t see. after all we just won a cup X years ago
this goes on for probably 3 years until ownership has enough and refreshes the staff
in my limited observation, the wisdom of the hf crowd is about as right as any given nhl coach in a given year. i’ve seen on multiple occasions lines first suggested on this board eventually be tried in a game and succeed. not always, but more than 50/50
a lot of the time we’re just asking/begging them to return to previous combinations where something positive was seen. and a lot of the time, they do return to it, just once their backs are against the wall
that says everything to me. it’s a pattern that will continue to play out as long as the nhl is such a regressive league coached mainly by former players (and former grunts at that)
blueger should, quite obviously, have played over zar. he didn’t because zar is one of sullys favorites/he also doesn’t seem to like blueger for basically no reason
i don’t find this controversial in the slightest
Nothing that you stated above squares with any sense of reality. The *brass* involved evaluating a NHL level UFA and NCAA level UFA are different.
You’ve also essentially stated that the Pens missed on not two players. JJ and Sprong, but 5, i.e. the Pens’ internal evaluations of Blueger and ZAR are reversed in your *mind* and Johnson should be getting minutes over ZAR.
Did you even bother to look at the *DumpTruck* coming off the bench in Game 1 OT and breaking up the 2 on 1?
I’ll bet you lamented the Despres trade.
I’ll bet you were happy to see Fleury go.
I’ll bet you thought Oskar Sundqvist not only couldn't be but wouldn’t be a serviceable 3rd or 4th line center in the NHL.
You should consider applying for a job in the NHL instead of posting these deep thoughts on the Internet.
Empoleon8771
Registered User
The crap ZAR gets here is way over the line, because he's just a vanilla bottom-6 forward. He produces at solid 3rd line levels but you probably aren't comfortable with him in your top-9 full-time, I think he's in the same boat as Simon in that sense. The amount of crap that people give for a guy who's on the 4th line when everyone is healthy is just crazy, like how is he important enough to anyone to complain about?
On the same point, ZAR isn't good enough to justify spending a ton of energy defending him, either. He's just meh, he's whatever. If you can upgrade on him, absolutely go for it. But don't just get rid of him like I've seen suggested here.
On the same point, ZAR isn't good enough to justify spending a ton of energy defending him, either. He's just meh, he's whatever. If you can upgrade on him, absolutely go for it. But don't just get rid of him like I've seen suggested here.
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Fordy
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everyone did, because despres was a more talented player than lovejoy who was ran out of town for personality reasons. luckily, lovejoy was more than serviceable that year, and unfortunately, despres's career was ended by injury
... still am?
consensus opinion of this board for sundqvist's entire run on this team was that he was being held back in much the same way we are saying blueger is being held back
we will see how sprong's career goes, but i think it's pretty obvious that he was not the problem with this team this year
i'd assume his opinion on this is much the same as mine, which is that blueger outplayed zar this year and aj at the very least showed skill, speed, and poise in his look at the end of the year. both were hot players coming into the playoffs, while zar had been recovering from a serious injury and came in completely ice cold
we will see how the next few years go for these 3, but i think it's clear that either of blueger or zar were the superior choice for the series vs the islanders, whether you believe zar will be the better player or not. this was clearly a decision made because the coach has a personal preference for zar, not because he had been outplaying anyone recently (since he wasn't playing at all) and not even really because he was outplaying anyone overall last year
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HandshakeLine
A real jerk thing
Despres would have been a horrible third round pick. His last season in Pittsburgh his Tk/Gv was a negative 4 to 1.
Why?
Bzzzzt...the *consensus* on this board was that with the loss of Bonino the Pens had no one in the system capable of being a 3rd or 4th line center.
Actually, waiting for Sprong to develop WAS a problem with the team this year as it kept the team from making any other move.
None of that opinion is based upon tangible fact. Again, ZAR and Blueger played in Game 2 v. Isles...ZAR, hands down, had the better game.
Strakanator
Registered User
- Sep 21, 2007
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I am a huge Simon supporter. Not because of what he is now, but because of what he might develop into.
I think he has the most top 9 potential. If he develops, his type of game is where the league is moving towards. Simon is fast with really good hands.
I feel like Simon deserves a longer rope than the rest of the current “young” guys, because he is more skilled with more potential.
Only time will tell who ends the best out of ZAR, Simon, Bluegar, etc. My money is on Simon out of that group, and it’s ok if I am wrong. It’s pretty hard to guess who will make the jump and who won’t. Simon seems to have all the tools. He just has to put it together.
I think he has the most top 9 potential. If he develops, his type of game is where the league is moving towards. Simon is fast with really good hands.
I feel like Simon deserves a longer rope than the rest of the current “young” guys, because he is more skilled with more potential.
Only time will tell who ends the best out of ZAR, Simon, Bluegar, etc. My money is on Simon out of that group, and it’s ok if I am wrong. It’s pretty hard to guess who will make the jump and who won’t. Simon seems to have all the tools. He just has to put it together.
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