ZAR

[Honour Over Glory]

Please explain how the guy who has a 30 point pace on both his pro seasons so far and who logs PK time, works hard and rarely makes a mistake isn't a solid 30 point depth guy.

Listen Sullivan, he also gets a lot of top 6 opportunity and is propped up by those numbers. If he was on the 4th line where he belongs that's fine. But his ass isn't even a 30pt player without the top 6 time. At best he has put up 30pt paces while being in the top 6 for majority of his time.

That's ass.

If that's acceptable to you, then well shit son, that's a shitty bar you've set.

Blueger is a 30pt pace player in the bottom 6. Without that propped up top 6 shit.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Even if you don’t like him now consider he’s young, still in his rookie season and is cheap and probably still on a career upswing.

It’s not ZAR’s fault he’s shoehorned into a top-6 spot. As a bottom 6 guy I don’t mind him.

As a bottom 6 guy no one hates him. But I take issue with the morons that pump his stats and don't realize that's mostly in the top 6. He's a solid bottom 6 winger. But masquerading as a top 6 and this 30 pt pace garbage as a 4th liner isn't true.

 

[Paulie Gualtieri]

How much has he really played in the top six? I don't think it's as much as some seem to think.

His TOI/GP is 13:39 minutes and that includes nearly 2 minutes on the PK per game.

 

[Peat]

How much has he really played in the top six? I don't think it's as much as some seem to think.

His TOI/GP is 13:39 minutes and that includes nearly 2 minutes on the PK per game.

37 minutes with Sid, 180 minutes with Geno, 276 minutes without either (at 5v5)

 

[Peat]

Listen Sullivan

You will address me as "Your Magnificent Smugness", you horrible peasant you.

, he also gets a lot of top 6 opportunity and is propped up by those numbers. If he was on the 4th line where he belongs that's fine. But his ass isn't even a 30pt player without the top 6 time. At best he has put up 30pt paces while being in the top 6 for majority of his time.

That's ass.

If that's acceptable to you, then well **** son, that's a ****ty bar you've set.

Blueger is a 30pt pace player in the bottom 6. Without that propped up top 6 ****.

See my post to Big Kahuna; he's not in the top 6 for the majority of his time.

And do you know who else has points totals propped up by top 6 opportunities? Pretty much every bottom 6er in the NHL.

But lets break this down

In his 276 minutes outside the top 6, he has 6 5v5 points. That translates to a 1.3 p/60 pace, which over the course of a season would equate to a 20 point pace (22 points if we add on his SH pace as well). By way of comparison, Cullen's pace when actually on the 4th line in 2016-17 was 22 points. 22 points vs 22 points. This is a higher scoring season and ZAR's got some third line time mixed in there, but still basically comparable to Cullen.

In the 217 minutes he's played with Sid and Geno, he has 10 5v5 points. That translates to a 2.76 p/60 pace, which is higher than all but three Pens forwards this year (and just 0.04 behind Guentzel) and over the course of a season would equate to a 42 point pace. That's on 11.29 a night of 5v5 time btw. Now, admittedly, this is a higher scoring season so this isn't an entirely fair example, but last season he'd have had the second highest 5v5 total on the team with that pace, beating everyone who isn't Russian. And it'd have been tied 34th in the NHL with Nico Hischier.

So, this season... as a bottom 6er, his production is roughly equivalent to Cullen, and as a top 6er, his production is borderline elite.

You're right. So ass.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Please explain how the guy who has a 30 point pace on both his pro seasons so far and who logs PK time, works hard and rarely makes a mistake isn't a solid 30 point depth guy.

Well, he hasn't actually hit 30 points once yet. If we're going to characterize him as a solid i.e. dependable 30 point guy, he should probably have done it often enough for it to be considered a habit. Like...at least twice.

 

[Pens x]

Should be called DTD instead of ZAR.

 

[JimmyTwoTimes]

Idk but I just want him back so Blueger can center the 4th line giving Cullen a rest before the playoffs. Rust on 2nd line. Blueger gets his taste as 4C. ZAR and Wilson(who cares just want Cullen to get a handful of games off before playoffs.)

We have seen some good things from ZAR each time before he got hurt again tho. Def wouldn't give up on him yet or Simon. Go into next season with both unless packaged in a trade, guessing at least one will be passed up eventually by our younger guys but there is time for them.

 

[Peat]

Well, he hasn't actually hit 30 points once yet. If we're going to characterize him as a solid i.e. dependable 30 point guy, he should probably have done it often enough for it to be considered a habit. Like...at least twice.

That's a fair shout. But he is at least right on track to be that guy.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

That's a fair shout. But he is at least right on track to be that guy.

Yep. But the guy has to find a way to stay in the line-up.

 

[TheDuderino]

He never played an overly physical game in college, so with the Pens wanting him to evolve his game, his body probably isn't used to giving/receiving this much abuse. We'll see how he responds next year.

Kid was a beast in college and the USHL and was 5th in hits on Pens this year.

His injuries were freak. A broken hand from falling on i? Bruised hip from a breezer?

 

[molon labe]

Reminds me of the later years of Kunitz tbh:

-Always 'there' - but never finishing
-Somewhat physical, but nothing impactful
-Frequently in the top-6 when he belongs in the bottom-6
-Coach's obsession

 

[ncm7772]

Strong bump!

-Frequently in the top-6 when he belongs in the bottom-6
-Coach's obsession

Bingo.​

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Kid was a beast in college and the USHL and was 5th in hits on Pens this year.

His injuries were freak. A broken hand from falling on i? Bruised hip from a breezer?

He's like Bennett without the skill

 

[TheDuderino]

He's like Bennett without the skill

Comments like that paint you as one to not be taken seriously. Kid should have won the Hobey the year he was up for it.

Worst you can say is that after playing, cumulatively, less than a season that the book is still out on him.

 

[Gold Diamond]

ZAR is very polarizing to me. At times, he looks like a bonafide top 6 NHLer. At other times, he looks like he should be skating on a pond in Nova Scotia somewhere. Injuries have had something to do with that but he needs to stay healthy consistently and evolve his game if he's going to remain in the NHL, let alone this team.

 

[Peat]

Reminds me of the later years of Kunitz tbh:

-Always 'there' - but never finishing
-Somewhat physical, but nothing impactful
-Frequently in the top-6 when he belongs in the bottom-6
-Coach's obsession

He has a g/60 of .87 at 5v5 over the past two years - just .04 and .06 behind Phil and Geno respectively, and higher than Sid. That sounds like okay finishing to me.

 

[Trade]

If ZAR and Blueger are fixtures on our fourth line next year and he stays healthy, I can see both of them sniffing the mid-30's point range as long as they aren't flanked by Garret Wilson all year.

 

[Peat]

If ZAR and Blueger are fixtures on our fourth line next year and he stays healthy, I can see both of them sniffing the mid-30's point range as long as they aren't flanked by Garret Wilson all year.

That would be insanely high production for 4th liners and is only really possible if they're on a hot PP2 unit/Gagnering it up on the PK and EN. That would be adequate production to be considered one of the 3rd lines in the league, nevermind a 4th.

 

[Andy99]

He has a g/60 of .87 at 5v5 over the past two years - just .04 and .06 behind Phil and Geno respectively, and higher than Sid. That sounds like okay finishing to me.

Yeah, I'm not disappointed with his goal scoring rate and/or prowess, which is good for who he is as a player and where he plays...he's sniped a few nice goals...my biggest problem with him is that his supposed strengths and what he's touted for aren't really very good...he's not significantly physical such that he really helps separate the puck. He loses board battles constantly and his forecheck is not particularly aggressive...he's not a great defensive player and makes turnovers in the D end...when you couple that with the fact that he doesn't have game-changing offensive skills, it's like what exactly does this guy bring that's so helpful and impactful to this team? Not much...he's a meh player who's fine on L4 but I'm not going out of my way to sign him to a good contract...he's replaceable...frankly, if we could get Hags back at $2 million or less (doubtful), I'd rather have Hags on L4

 

[molon labe]

He has a g/60 of .87 at 5v5 over the past two years - just .04 and .06 behind Phil and Geno respectively, and higher than Sid. That sounds like okay finishing to me.

Edit to my original post, thanks for reminding me [of another similarity to Kunitz]:

-Looks great via advanced stats - and mediocre via the eye test.

 

[Trade]

That would be insanely high production for 4th liners and is only really possible if they're on a hot PP2 unit/Gagnering it up on the PK and EN. That would be adequate production to be considered one of the 3rd lines in the league, nevermind a 4th.

Yeah, and IMO they are both third line caliber players, hence the 5~ point bump. Over a full season rookie Teddy finishes with about 30 or so points this year and ZAR finishes with like 36-38 points in his second year. Obviously they both had more top 6 opportunity this year than they might have next year, but I believe they're easily capable.

 

[Peat]

Yeah, I'm not disappointed with his goal scoring rate and/or prowess, which is good for who he is as a player and where he plays...he's sniped a few nice goals...my biggest problem with him is that his supposed strengths and what he's touted for aren't really very good...he's not significantly physical such that he really helps separate the puck. He loses board battles constantly and his forecheck is not particularly aggressive...he's not a great defensive player and makes turnovers in the D end...when you couple that with the fact that he doesn't have game-changing offensive skills, it's like what exactly does this guy bring that's so helpful and impactful to this team? Not much...he's a meh player who's fine on L4 but I'm not going out of my way to sign him to a good contract...he's replaceable...frankly, if we could get Hags back at $2 million or less (doubtful), I'd rather have Hags on L4

I don't really know what I think of ZAR as a player tbh. Everytime he seems to be putting together a good run of form where he's making frequent big interventions without noticeably being a weakness he gets injured. But I do know that his production is just fine. There's a bunch of things where there's an argument (I agree he never looks that physical as well), but complaining about his production betrays people as either having a pre-set agenda, complete ignorance of scoring rates in this league, or both.

Also I wouldn't take Hagelin for 2m over him, because anything else apart we don't have that extra million. Not that Hagelin is taking that money anyway.

Yeah, and IMO they are both third line caliber players, hence the 5~ point bump. Over a full season rookie Teddy finishes with about 30 or so points this year and ZAR finishes with like 36-38 points in his second year. Obviously they both had more top 6 opportunity this year than they might have next year, but I believe they're easily capable.

ZAR did that with 2 and a half more minutes a night than he'd get on the 4th line and Blueger did it by Gagnering the hell out of PK - his 5.03 p/60 there is probably not sustainable. Plus, as you say, better linemates for decent amounts of the season.

Assuming 9 minutes a night at 5v5 (what Cullen did, so high end for 4th liner), you need a p/60 of 2.03 just to make 25 points (I figure another 5 from special teams for 4th liners seems feasible). 119 guys got that pace at ES (I know, inconsistent, but too lazy to correct settings) with Anthony Mantha being that guy. You basically have to perform like a 2nd/3rd tweener - despite getting crap zone starts - to do it.

To do it as pillars of the 4th line would be extremely impressive.

 

[molon labe]

I don't really know what I think of ZAR as a player tbh. Everytime he seems to be putting together a good run of form where he's making frequent big interventions without noticeably being a weakness he gets injured. But I do know that his production is just fine. There's a bunch of things where there's an argument (I agree he never looks that physical as well), but complaining about his production betrays people as either having a pre-set agenda, complete ignorance of scoring rates in this league, or both.

Also I wouldn't take Hagelin for 2m over him, because anything else apart we don't have that extra million. Not that Hagelin is taking that money anyway.

I honestly don't care if he stays or goes. He brings nothing unique and has been injured so why are we hedging bets one way or the other at this point?

You bet on a guy to become something - he is the epitome of bottom-6 guy; either he gets paid like one (league min or similar), or we roll the dice with the next youngster. A prove-me deal is also not bad. Getting attached to vanilla guys is what puts teams in early graves.

For the record I think my comparison to the later-year Kunitz was pretty accurate. Dude throws a shot on net every now and then - plays the puck on the boards - throws a check - aaaand that's it.

 

[TheDuderino]

Yeah, I'm not disappointed with his goal scoring rate and/or prowess, which is good for who he is as a player and where he plays...he's sniped a few nice goals...my biggest problem with him is that his supposed strengths and what he's touted for aren't really very good...he's not significantly physical such that he really helps separate the puck. He loses board battles constantly and his forecheck is not particularly aggressive...he's not a great defensive player and makes turnovers in the D end...L4

Do you folks actually check stats before you spout this nonsense?

43 Games:

37 blocked shots...1.5 more TKs than GVs...fixture on kill - including 5 on 3s - and most of his assists were the result of winning board battles...61.3 of his shot attempts were on net...and you do know that a forecheck doesn’t have to result in a direct turnover but can force a bad pass or an icing?

Kid hasn’t played a full season at the level. Analyzing his career is one thing...ignoring what he’s brought while offering such an analysis is silly.