Yzerman's First Rounders and the Tampa Cup

OgeeOgelthorpe

Baldina
Feb 29, 2020
17,134
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I never understood how much flak the Drouin pick gets. Do his numbers justify a top 5 pick? No. But he’s in the league and scores around 15-20 goals most years. There’s way worse busts than that and I wouldn’t even consider Drouin a bust. Just an underachiever.

If that’s the worst thing you’ve done in your tenure, you’ve probably done a pretty damn good job. And he did...

Drouin during his draft year was a no brainer at #3. The problems developed AFTER draft day. Attitude, work ethic, coachability problems are what did Drouin in, not talent level. In hindsight Jones would have been the better pick but it's just that; hindsight. I can almost guarantee that if someone did a search of the 2012 draft thread here now and read the responses about Drouin being picked they would be overwhelmingly happy with that choice.
 

Retire91

Stevey Y you our Guy
May 31, 2010
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It's not "missing holes on the grit side". All this talk cheapens the Cup and what it takes to win it. I mean, Tampa literally went to game 7 in two conference finals against Pittsburgh (who won the Cup) and Washington (who won the Cup) surrounded by missing the playoffs with 94 points and last year's sweep by the Blue Jackets. Tampa absolutely had enough talent and physical play to win the Cup multiple times. But there is a team on the other end that had the talent and physical play to do so as well.

Everything has to come together at the right time for a Cup run. If there was a single "formula", some team would have figured it out and be rolling in the titles by now.

A GM tries to structure their roster as good as they can and then the players have to play it out. If you really look at the 2008-2009 final, Detroit's roster was still better than Pittsburgh's and if you replay game 7 in Detroit 1000 times, the Wings probably win 950 of those 1000. But that's not what happened. Does that mean they didn't have the roster for it? No, it's just the other team was good too.

You should prioritize skill over grit 100 times out of 100. You just have to have guys who play hard. I mean, Pavel Datsyuk was a greasy player. Henrik Zetterberg was anything but soft.

I think you are right on the tampa board I was kinda surprised by how many people said if it wasn't for that grit and I guess I overthought it. In all honestly I would rather have a GM that builds a skilled team and completely ignores grit than focus on girt and miss the mark. I would kinda rather lose wiht a skilled team than make sacrifices for grit when that wasn't even the answer. I kinda revise my thoughts and I 100% agree no way they win that cup without 99% Yzerman. Tampa fans are smoking sump'n.
 

Realgud

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Nov 4, 2013
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As a Halifax resident I will say that Drouin was absolutely incredible and the most impressive player I’ve seen go through the Mooseheads; just didn’t translate to the next level.

Flashy dangles against lower competition can only bring you so far. MacKinnon certainly had a better game for the next level but I can see how Drouin might have been the most "impressive", though. You were lucky to have had such a ridiculously talented team for so long.
 
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MBH

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Jul 20, 2019
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A lot of people warned about Drouin but as many people said he would be incredible. I was a believer. I thought he would absolutely dominate at the next level. I can't fault Yzerman for Drouin honestly he had a lot of people fooled. I do fault Yzerman for Connelly though. Almost every thing I read said that guy had feet of stone and no way he could find scoring areas at the next level. Connelly did eventually win a cup as a bottom sixer but he never became the elite scorer he was supposed to be and I think most people saw that coming.

He was SOOOO good against Detroit in that playoff series.
 
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FMichael

Registered User
Dec 22, 2010
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Ken Daniels suggested that Yzerman might draft Drysdale partially because of learning from the past mistake of picking Drouin over Seth Jones. Not really sure if that's a fair comparison but I get the idea.

With his experience in Tampa, I'd like to hope Stevie has developed and evolved a better sense of how to judge and project 17-18 year olds.
That's an interesting take...In the end Yzerman moved Drouin for Sergachev.
 
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ridilon

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Sep 14, 2017
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Can someone give me some specifics on this 'grit' that Detroit had to acquire before the '97 cup? And don't start with Shanahan for Primeau / Coffey. The dude was a perennial 40 goal scorer that took care of business. Coffey and Primeau were absolutely soft as charmin on the ice, but Shanny was no role player that filled the gaps. Brisebois did not make any corresponding move like that mega deal. And that move was Bowman's call anyway. Shanahan was no 'grit' player. Am I to believe that Larionov / Murphy / Brown were somehow smart acquisitions because of their grit? Fetisov, was he the gritty player that took us over the top? All the grit Detroit had in '97 & '98 was drafted or on the team for years save Shanahan. McCarty, Lapointe, Pushor, Konstantinov, Maltby all part of the team for years. I guess it was Bob Rouse and Tomas Sandstrom that provided all this grit we were lacking idk.
 

Ricelund

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Can someone give me some specifics on this 'grit' that Detroit had to acquire before the '97 cup? And don't start with Shanahan for Primeau / Coffey. The dude was a perennial 40 goal scorer that took care of business. Coffey and Primeau were absolutely soft as charmin on the ice, but Shanny was no role player that filled the gaps. Brisebois did not make any corresponding move like that mega deal. And that move was Bowman's call anyway. Shanahan was no 'grit' player. Am I to believe that Larionov / Murphy / Brown were somehow smart acquisitions because of their grit? Fetisov, was he the gritty player that took us over the top? All the grit Detroit had in '97 & '98 was drafted or on the team for years save Shanahan. McCarty, Lapointe, Pushor, Konstantinov, Maltby all part of the team for years. I guess it was Bob Rouse and Tomas Sandstrom that provided all this grit we were lacking idk.
Don't forget Kocur!

Agreed though, sometimes people take narratives too far.
 

Lil Sebastian Cossa

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Can someone give me some specifics on this 'grit' that Detroit had to acquire before the '97 cup? And don't start with Shanahan for Primeau / Coffey. The dude was a perennial 40 goal scorer that took care of business. Coffey and Primeau were absolutely soft as charmin on the ice, but Shanny was no role player that filled the gaps. Brisebois did not make any corresponding move like that mega deal. And that move was Bowman's call anyway. Shanahan was no 'grit' player. Am I to believe that Larionov / Murphy / Brown were somehow smart acquisitions because of their grit? Fetisov, was he the gritty player that took us over the top? All the grit Detroit had in '97 & '98 was drafted or on the team for years save Shanahan. McCarty, Lapointe, Pushor, Konstantinov, Maltby all part of the team for years. I guess it was Bob Rouse and Tomas Sandstrom that provided all this grit we were lacking idk.

That's who the grit was, though, man.

That's why I said you target skill over grit. Shanahan was better than Primeau because he was tougher. Grit doesn't mean "dogshit player who can't do anything but try hard". Grit just means hard to play against. Somewhat physical edge to their game. Datsyuk? Zetterberg? They were gritty. Jason Williams, Mikael Samuelsson, Damien Brunner, etc. they were not. Nyquist was not.

Larionov was sneaky tough, Murphy was an amazing acquisition because he was a literal top pair defenseman we got for free. Brown was secondary scoring we got for cheap. They were great moves because we acquired great players at value prices.

Fetisov was greasy as f***, just wouldn't have looked it compared to Vladdy. Also, I mean, did you watch the Russian Five? They had enough skill that they didn't have to be tough, you just couldn't touch them when they were on their game. They were such a fabulous combination because even though they were skilled enough they didn't have to be tough... Kozlov was kinda dirty, Vladdy was super dirty, Fetisov was kinda dirty. Larionov was smallish and avoided hits and Fedorov just was faster than everyone else.

I originally had a reference to the Shanahan for Primeau and Coffey trade in my last post here. It worked because they targeted a skill player who had a very hard edge to his game AND even though they dealt a Norris caliber offensive D, they had two literal #1s on the team still AND they added Larry Murphy for nothing at the TDL.

The Wings lost in 1995 because they didn't have a Shanahan that could just bullrush if a neutral zone trap team tried shutting them down. Primeau had the size to do it, but that wasn't his game. Coffey had the speed to blow past people, but he wasn't defensively responsible enough for the left wing lock in comparison to TPH and Konstantinov.

This whole thing just shows that some people want to take a buzzword like grit or physical defenseman or character or whatever and not give any thought to what it was. With Shanny they got a big skilled forward who would use his size to his advantage which they didn't have with Primeau. They were able to re-settle the D pairings to have two dynamite shutdown pairings who could also move the puck. Coffey was a great player, but he freelanced too much for the tight-checking possession game that Bowman wanted to play.
 

FabricDetails

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Mar 30, 2009
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Can someone give me some specifics on this 'grit' that Detroit had to acquire before the '97 cup? And don't start with Shanahan for Primeau / Coffey. The dude was a perennial 40 goal scorer that took care of business. Coffey and Primeau were absolutely soft as charmin on the ice, but Shanny was no role player that filled the gaps. Brisebois did not make any corresponding move like that mega deal. And that move was Bowman's call anyway. Shanahan was no 'grit' player. Am I to believe that Larionov / Murphy / Brown were somehow smart acquisitions because of their grit? Fetisov, was he the gritty player that took us over the top? All the grit Detroit had in '97 & '98 was drafted or on the team for years save Shanahan. McCarty, Lapointe, Pushor, Konstantinov, Maltby all part of the team for years. I guess it was Bob Rouse and Tomas Sandstrom that provided all this grit we were lacking idk.

You need a good mix. The grit was Shanny plus growth from within. You also have to remember that with Dino and Primeau gone, Lapointe and McCarty got more playing time. Maltby and Draper got better. Vladdy improved so much that he was a runner up for the Norris that year. So on and so forth.
 

FabricDetails

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What are some of you guys' thoughts if you tried to imagine through a "What if?" scenario of let's say you replace Point with Larkin and so now you have Larkin handling the responsibilities and situations that Point faced? I'm honestly not trying to get at an agenda of "Larkin is just as good as Point." That's ridiculous. I'm just trying to imagine how the Wings best player would have handled the same situations.
 

Mlotek

Registered User
Feb 28, 2017
921
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South of US Border
The amount of talent Yzerman acquired outside of the 1st round is not even fair. Trust the Yzerplan.

Kucherov
Point
Cirelli
Palat
Gourde
Killorn
Johnson
Cernak
Verhaeghe (AHL scoring title)

Ridiculous
Czernak came from LA as part of Bishop trade.

Nonetheless, impressive draft record.
 

Mlotek

Registered User
Feb 28, 2017
921
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South of US Border
Part of that is on Draper and Hakan to be different advisors though and for those talking about the second round Al Murray plays a pretty big role in that success, arguably more than Yzerman once you get out of the high end picks though Yzerman has always scouted more than your typical GM.

I would give more credit to the scouting staff than the GM when it comes to later picks.

From the many interviews I seen the past couple years, outside of the first round pick most GMs don't take an active part in scouting, they simply don't have the time.

They more set the criteria what the team is looking for (size, skill, char, etc) for the scouting team to rank prospects against.
 
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ridilon

Registered User
Sep 14, 2017
357
208
That's who the grit was, though, man.

That's why I said you target skill over grit. Shanahan was better than Primeau because he was tougher. Grit doesn't mean "dogshit player who can't do anything but try hard". Grit just means hard to play against. Somewhat physical edge to their game. Datsyuk? Zetterberg? They were gritty. Jason Williams, Mikael Samuelsson, Damien Brunner, etc. they were not. Nyquist was not.

Larionov was sneaky tough, Murphy was an amazing acquisition because he was a literal top pair defenseman we got for free. Brown was secondary scoring we got for cheap. They were great moves because we acquired great players at value prices.

Fetisov was greasy as f***, just wouldn't have looked it compared to Vladdy. Also, I mean, did you watch the Russian Five? They had enough skill that they didn't have to be tough, you just couldn't touch them when they were on their game. They were such a fabulous combination because even though they were skilled enough they didn't have to be tough... Kozlov was kinda dirty, Vladdy was super dirty, Fetisov was kinda dirty. Larionov was smallish and avoided hits and Fedorov just was faster than everyone else.

I originally had a reference to the Shanahan for Primeau and Coffey trade in my last post here. It worked because they targeted a skill player who had a very hard edge to his game AND even though they dealt a Norris caliber offensive D, they had two literal #1s on the team still AND they added Larry Murphy for nothing at the TDL.

The Wings lost in 1995 because they didn't have a Shanahan that could just bullrush if a neutral zone trap team tried shutting them down. Primeau had the size to do it, but that wasn't his game. Coffey had the speed to blow past people, but he wasn't defensively responsible enough for the left wing lock in comparison to TPH and Konstantinov.

This whole thing just shows that some people want to take a buzzword like grit or physical defenseman or character or whatever and not give any thought to what it was. With Shanny they got a big skilled forward who would use his size to his advantage which they didn't have with Primeau. They were able to re-settle the D pairings to have two dynamite shutdown pairings who could also move the puck. Coffey was a great player, but he freelanced too much for the tight-checking possession game that Bowman wanted to play.

I agree with what you are saying. My point is TB did not add some grit player to bring them the cup a la the DRWs from '97. And Brisebois did not make any moves like the Shanny deal.
 

Lil Sebastian Cossa

Opinions are share are my own personal opinions.
Jul 6, 2012
11,436
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What are some of you guys' thoughts if you tried to imagine through a "What if?" scenario of let's say you replace Point with Larkin and so now you have Larkin handling the responsibilities and situations that Point faced? I'm honestly not trying to get at an agenda of "Larkin is just as good as Point." That's ridiculous. I'm just trying to imagine how the Wings best player would have handled the same situations.

The Wings would be better off. Point > Larkin. Larkin has a motor that doesn't quit, but he's decidedly less skilled than most top end players. That's not to say that he's unskilled... but it's why people say he is optimally a 2C on a great team. He accomplishes everything by outworking everyone.

Tampa would not have as easily been able to weather the Stamkos injury if you replace Point with Larkin. Point was able to carry the Tampa offense for large stretches. I don't think Larkin would have been able to do the same.
 

The Zetterberg Era

Ball Hockey Sucks
Nov 8, 2011
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I would give more credit to the scouting staff than the GM when it comes to later picks.

From the many interviews I seen the past couple years, outside of the first round pick most GMs don't take an active part in scouting, they simply don't have the time.

They more set the criteria what the team is looking for (size, skill, char, etc) for the scouting team to rank prospects against.

It's not unheard of, but yeah the GM is really only in on the 1st round pick. My guess is because our amount of seconds and how bad we were all season he did some in person scouting on those. Again other hockey people marvel at how often Yzerman scouts, I think Button always talks about that.
 

Mlotek

Registered User
Feb 28, 2017
921
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South of US Border
I agree with what you are saying. My point is TB did not add some grit player to bring them the cup a la the DRWs from '97. And Brisebois did not make any moves like the Shanny deal.
Isn't that why they signed Maroon?

Also it's not like Coleman and Goodrow provided any physical play. Wait, they were #1 and #3 for hits on Tampa in the playoffs.... forget I brought it up.
 
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cphabs

The 2 stooges….
Dec 21, 2012
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His strength has not been in the high first round. I hope in Tampa he learned from it and is able to bring improvement. He seems to misjudge boom bust talent. But he has a knack for finding sleepers that consensus ranking misses so he makes up for it. I think Koekkoek was also in the first round :(

I think Yzerman's strengths are deep draft, and big wins through small deals. And pulling off great moves when the chips are down like Martin St. Louis and Drouin. My jaw still drops on that Drouin trade from day one I was like that is an incredible steel.

I think Yzerman also deserves credit for Cooper. A lot of people piled on that he didn't choose an NHL experienced coach but Coop got it done and Yzerman saw something in him. I think we are in good hands when the eventual coach is decided.

On a side note a lot of Tampa posters thing Yzerman's roster was not getting it done because it lacked grit and the players that do the little details that take the team over the top. They credit the new GM for filling that gap. I like to think Yezman was just waiting for the right time to pull the trigger on filling out grit but it sounds like maybe Yzerman focuses too much on speed and skill. Not a bad focus of course, but maybe a blind spot? We'll see.
Habs fan here. Drouin is a head case. All the talent in the world but a head case. Steve took the BPA in Drouin. He certainly fixed the problem. Sergachev just turned 22...
 

jkutswings

hot piss hockey
Jul 10, 2014
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If you really look at the 2008-2009 final, Detroit's roster was still better than Pittsburgh's and if you replay game 7 in Detroit 1000 times, the Wings probably win 950 of those 1000.
I like this idea. Can I please choose which 950 repetitions we watch?
 
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Lil Sebastian Cossa

Opinions are share are my own personal opinions.
Jul 6, 2012
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I like this idea. Can I please choose which 950 repetitions we watch?

The world in which Marian Hossa scores 5 goals in game 7 and signs a 12 year 4M contract with the Red Wings and someone with the Wings researches his equipment and catches the "gunk" before it causes him to have to step away. Which is followed by Ryan Suter telling Zach Parise to blow it out of his ass and that he's going to Detroit to take over Lidstrom's legacy. Where the Wings use one of their 3 second round picks in Kucherov's draft year to take him and they take (and are able to convince) Evgeny Kuznetsov to come to Detroit over taking Riley Sheahan.

This is the world where I want to live.
 

FabricDetails

HF still in need of automated text analytics
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The world in which Marian Hossa scores 5 goals in game 7 and signs a 12 year 4M contract with the Red Wings and someone with the Wings researches his equipment and catches the "gunk" before it causes him to have to step away. Which is followed by Ryan Suter telling Zach Parise to blow it out of his ass and that he's going to Detroit to take over Lidstrom's legacy. Where the Wings use one of their 3 second round picks in Kucherov's draft year to take him and they take (and are able to convince) Evgeny Kuznetsov to come to Detroit over taking Riley Sheahan.

This is the world where I want to live.

6468189fc4250c0b6697be9edc273b58.png
 

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