Yzerman vs Sakic

[tony d]

This debate again; I'm going with Yzerman.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

In a few decades, history will show that it's easily Sakic.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

In a few decades, history will show that it's easily Sakic.

i lean toward sakic, but am in the it’s crazy close camp.

curious why you think so.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

i lean toward sakic, but am in the it’s crazy close camp.

curious why you think so.

Sakic had:

Significantly better longevity as a great offensive player - quite a few more top 5, top 10, top 20 seasons, etc.
Better two-way prime - when adjusted for era, Sakic's best offensive seasons are comparable to Yzerman's, but Sakic was a good two-way player during his offensive prime.
Better overall playoff numbers and slightly more impressive individual runs

Yzerman had:

Better defensive peak - but he was merely a good, no longer great, offensive player by this point.

 

[daver]

Sakic had:

Significantly better longevity as a great offensive player - quite a few more top 5, top 10, top 20 seasons, etc.
Better two-way prime - when adjusted for era, Sakic's best offensive seasons are comparable to Yzerman's, but Sakic was a good two-way player during his offensive prime.
Better overall playoff numbers and slightly more impressive individual runs

Yzerman had:

Better defensive peak - but he was merely a good, no longer great, offensive player by this point.

Yzerman's 155 point season should be viewed on a tier above Sakic's best season (2000/01) especially given how much more he was relied on for offense.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Yzerman's 155 point season should be viewed on a tier above Sakic's best season (2000/01) especially given how much more he was relied on for offense.

He basically sacrificed defense for that offense. And offensively, Sakic was way ahead of the pack in 2001, just as Yzerman was in 1989.

 

[daver]

He basically sacrificed defense for that offense. And offensively, Sakic was way ahead of the pack in 2001, just as Yzerman was in 1989.

How are you coming to this conclusion?

And Sakic didn't round out his game until after he had many seasons to try to reach Yzerman's peak season by "sacrificing defense" as you point it.

 

[Ishdul]

I deeply question the notion that:

1. Yzerman was bad defensively in his early years, when he was relied on heavily by an undermanned Wings team that (to me) did better defensively than their talent would indicate
2. Yzerman improved dramatically defensively in his later years, coincidentally at the same time Detroit added Selke caliber forwards like Fedorov and Draper, improved their goaltending and put together some of the more impressive collections of defensemen in recent NHL history

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

I deeply question the notion that:

1. Yzerman was bad defensively in his early years, when he was relied on heavily by an undermanned Wings team that (to me) did better defensively than their talent would indicate
2. Yzerman improved dramatically defensively in his later years, coincidentally at the same time Detroit added Selke caliber forwards like Fedorov and Draper, improved their goaltending and put together some of the more impressive collections of defensemen in recent NHL history

1. i don't think most people are saying young yzerman was bad defensively, just that he wasn't great or in selke range yet.

2. to me, the operative factor is his team adding one of history's great defensive coaches, moreso than who his teammates were.

not for nothing, but shawn burr was a phenomenal defensive player and he was there through the '80s. also, most people say that yzerman jumped a defensive level around '96, long after fedorov, lidstrom, and konstantinov came over.

 

[Newsworthy]

It's very close for me but Stevie Y was one of my favorite players and one of the best of his era. After Wayne and Mario his name gets plenty of mention.

 

[Newsworthy]

.

lol stevie y had 155 pts one year, thats just ridiculous, no one will ever do that again

.
?????????????????
What does this mean or prove?
Guys like Pierre Turgeon, LaFontaine, Bernie Nicholls and quite a few other lesser players had better career years than Sakic also.

 

[Jim MacDonald]

I wanted to make mention guys and gals (after looking at the numbers etc), a few times in this thread I had seen comments to the effect of Super Joe playing good/recognizable defense while still being better than Stevie Y offensively (not having to "sacrifice" offense like Yzerman did etc). Super Joe's 2000-2001 season was really the only season that illustrated this in a sense....the majority of Sakic's Selke votes I noticed, similar to Yzerman's, coincided with decreased offensive production (granted some of that was injury related). I just thought I'd share because I got an impression from scanning through these posts that Sakic was like a super duper shutdown center while being an offensive dervish. I think both guys are great (and of course love Stevie Y), but to say Sakic was a super duper shutdown center during his offensive peak....I don't know if that's accurate (at least based on Selke "recognition") if you will...like with Sakic I think "best wrist shot" "playoff stud." "Outstanding Penalty Killer" and "Terrific on Faceoffs" is something I associate with Yzerman......but not Sakic. Thoughts?

 

[daver]

I wanted to make mention guys and gals (after looking at the numbers etc), a few times in this thread I had seen comments to the effect of Super Joe playing good/recognizable defense while still being better than Stevie Y offensively (not having to "sacrifice" offense like Yzerman did etc). Super Joe's 2000-2001 season was really the only season that illustrated this in a sense....the majority of Sakic's Selke votes I noticed, similar to Yzerman's, coincided with decreased offensive production (granted some of that was injury related). I just thought I'd share because I got an impression from scanning through these posts that Sakic was like a super duper shutdown center while being an offensive dervish. I think both guys are great (and of course love Stevie Y), but to say Sakic was a super duper shutdown center during his offensive peak....I don't know if that's accurate (at least based on Selke "recognition") if you will...like with Sakic I think "best wrist shot" "playoff stud." "Outstanding Penalty Killer" and "Terrific on Faceoffs" is something I associate with Yzerman......but not Sakic. Thoughts?

I think Sakic's 2-way peak and Yzerman's lack of a 2-way game at his offensive peak get a bit exaggerated. IMO, the biggest separator of the two is Sakic's offensive longevity and playoff resume with an HM to Yzerman's peak season.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

How are you coming to this conclusion?

1.	Mario Lemieux* • PIT	199
2.	Wayne Gretzky* • LAK	168
3.	Steve Yzerman* • DET	155
4.	Bernie Nicholls • LAK	150
5.	Rob Brown • PIT	115

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

1.	Jaromir Jagr • PIT	121
2.	Joe Sakic* • COL	118
3.	Patrik Elias • NJD	96
4.	Jason Allison • BOS	95
	Alex Kovalev • PIT	95
	Martin Straka • PIT	95

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

In 2000-01, Sakic likely wins the Art Ross by 20 points if Mario Lemieux didn't come out of retirement to give Jagr a sustained kick in the butt.

Yzerman's season might be marginally more impressive offensively, all things considered. But Sakic was also a strong two-way player by 2000-01, taking on a pretty big defensive role for his team.

And Sakic didn't round out his game until after he had many seasons to try to reach Yzerman's peak season by "sacrificing defense" as you point it.

Yes, they both become good (sakic) or great (yzerman) defensive players around the same point in their respective careers. But Sakic's offense didn't drop at this point in his career like Yzerman's did. Sakic first received a nontrivial number of Selke votes in 1999-00. From this point on in his career, he finished 8th (2000), 2nd (2001), 5th (2002), 2nd (2004), 6th (2007) in NHL scoring. Two-way Yzerman peaked at 10th in scoring in 2000, his only top 10 finish after 1993.

 

[daver]

1.	Mario Lemieux* • PIT	199
2.	Wayne Gretzky* • LAK	168
3.	Steve Yzerman* • DET	155
4.	Bernie Nicholls • LAK	150
5.	Rob Brown • PIT	115

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

1.	Jaromir Jagr • PIT	121
2.	Joe Sakic* • COL	118
3.	Patrik Elias • NJD	96
4.	Jason Allison • BOS	95
	Alex Kovalev • PIT	95
	Martin Straka • PIT	95

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

In 2000-01, Sakic likely wins the Art Ross by 20 points if Mario Lemieux didn't come out of retirement to give Jagr a sustained kick in the butt.

Yzerman's season might be marginally more impressive offensively, all things considered. But Sakic was also a strong two-way player by 2000-01, taking on a pretty big defensive role for his team.

How many points does Yzerman win the Art Ross by if you remove Wayne (and Nicholls) and Mario (and Brown) from the equation in 88/89?

And I don't think the point totals of their teammates can be ignored when comparing the offensive strengths:

Yzerman - 155
Gallant - 93
Oates - 78
McLean - 71
Barr - 59

Sakic - 118
Forsberg - 89
Hejduk - 79
Tanguay - 77
Drury - 65

 

[daver]

Yes, they both become good (sakic) or great (yzerman) defensive players around the same point in their respective careers. But Sakic's offense didn't drop at this point in his career like Yzerman's did. Sakic first received a nontrivial number of Selke votes in 1999-00. From this point on in his career, he finished 8th (2000), 2nd (2001), 5th (2002), 2nd (2004), 6th (2007) in NHL scoring. Two-way Yzerman peaked at 10th in scoring in 2000, his only top 10 finish after 1993.

The point was that Yzerman's peak offense should not be framed with narrative that he "sacrificed defense" in order to reach that peak or Sakic could have reached that peak if he "sacrificed defense".

I give Yzerman the slight edge in peak seasons, all things considered.

I give Sakic a clearer edge all-time, all things considered.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

well at least we can probably all agree that yzerman is the infinitely better executive...

this comment of mine from five years ago did not age well

 

[VanIslander]

Yzerman vs. Sakic?

The question is worth more than any answer.
They were equals.

 

[Krigsgaldr]

For f***s sake some please end this thread now at page 19 please ??!! Also sorry but one of these guys is known sport wide as the Captain for a reason ..

 

[Johnny Engine]

For f***s sake some please end this thread now at page 19 please ??!! Also sorry but one of these guys is known sport wide as the Captain for a reason ..

You're free to ignore it if you'd like.

 

[Krigsgaldr]

You're free to ignore it if you'd like.

Lol i really just meant 19 pages is an appropriate ending point for a thread about the 2 most legendary number 19s in the sports history

 

[BraveCanadian]

Lol i really just meant 19 pages is an appropriate ending point for a thread about the 2 most legendary number 19s in the sports history

Except that at least Yzerman actually wanted 19 because of Bryan Trottier. I can't remember if Sakic was the same. So you forgot a pretty important #19.

 

[The Panther]

Except that at least Yzerman actually wanted 19 because of Bryan Trottier. I can't remember if Sakic was the same. So you forgot a pretty important #19.

Not to mention this guy...

 

[CokenoPepsi]

Sakic as a player

Sakic as a GM

 

[VanIslander]

Trottier-Bossy was a better duo than anyone linked with Yzerman or Sakic. But individually the latter two surpass both of the former in ability if not greatness.