Yzerman vs. Beliveau

Hardyvan123

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Jul 4, 2010
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Somewhere below Messier... In the 90s he would be one of the many (see the list in the other thread), not one of the top 3.

Feds close to Sakic I can see, and it's a bit of a stretch best case argument, but Malkin still is a ways behind and is behind Sid as well at this point.
 

pappyline

Registered User
Jul 3, 2005
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The fact of the matter is that we don't have any reliable TOI data for the 06 era and the stats we do have would seem to indicate that Jean was getting at least 20 MPG of ice time.



I was being a bit sarcastic, of course he didn't play enough MPG, in offensive situations, with the really good players, to score anywhere near like Jean and Henri did.

Even assuming that he qualifies as a LW in the all time wingers list,
he isn't going to be sniffing around on any top 50 lists in the weaest position in hockey is he? My overall point is that there is no proof and the evidence actually leans the other way on the 4 lines rolling over, which seemed to imply somewhat equal ice time.

Like I said before it's a pretty safe bet that jean averages close to or even over 20 MPG for his career.





I'm one of the guys ehre that often looks to none NHL playing time when comparing dfferent aplayers with each other.

Yes Jean was the star of the QHL but he didn't light the Habs oin fire in his first season either, so it's questionable as to how much impact he might have ahd, had he started in the NHL earlier, with Steve there are no questions he was rock solid in his first 6 seasons.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/pla...val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&order_by=points

Age 18-23 10th in points despite playing two seasons of only 51 and 64 games and not the greatest of offensive line or team mates either.
It seems to me that Beliveau was an impact player from day 1. Didn't enter the Nhl until age 22 because he didn''t want to take a pay cut. mind you 22 was probably the age most players came in at in the 50's. Bobby Hull & Stan Mikita were the exceptions. In Beliveaus first season he was injured and only played 44 games. i n season 2, came up with 73 points in 70 games. Damn good for a second year guy. In year 3 he took off.

If yzerman came up at the same time as Beliveau, very unlikely that he would have been in the NHL at 18.
 

Canadiens1958

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Comparables

It seems to me that Beliveau was an impact player from day 1. Didn't enter the Nhl until age 22 because he didn''t want to take a pay cut. mind you 22 was probably the age most players came in at in the 50's. Bobby Hull & Stan Mikita were the exceptions. In Beliveaus first season he was injured and only played 44 games. i n season 2, came up with 73 points in 70 games. Damn good for a second year guy. In year 3 he took off.

If yzerman came up at the same time as Beliveau, very unlikely that he would have been in the NHL at 18.

Pappyline, your post suggests a very interesting comparable - the transition from the OHA/OHL to the NHL of Stan Mikita and Steve Yzerman.

Stan Mikita
http://www.hockey-reference.com/players/m/mikitst01.html

Steve Yzerman
http://www.hockey-reference.com/players/y/yzermst01.html

Both had impressive junior careers and entered the NHL as underagers. Both were RHS centers with a solid defensive game. How long did it take each to become a top three NHL player?

Note, if the mods feel this comparison merits a distinct thread ....
 
Last edited:

pdd

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Feb 7, 2010
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You're not proving what you think you're proving here. It can't be done just by comparing beliveau to Yzerman. You would need to compare Yzerman to other comparable players in his time and the same for Yzerman. That's how you'd determine whether one had a particularly advantageous or disadvantageous linemate situation. And after all that you still have to prove what the degree which a player outscored their linemates by is representative of: how good they were, how good their linemates were, how the line worked (did the other players exist to "feed" the better one?) Or how the line was used.
Absolutely. But wouldn't a better question be: "Did prime Beliveau have better linemates relative to his peers than prime Yzerman had relative to his peers?"

To answer these questions, we'll look at the top handful of centers from 92-93. In bold are HHOFers, underlined are those expected to be inducted soon.

Player|Season|%1st|%2nd|Linemates
Lemieux |92-93|1.44|1.47|Stevens, Tocchet
LaFontaine |92-93|1.17|2.43|Mogilny, Andreychuk
Oates |92-93|1.39|1.97|Juneau, Kvartalnov
Yzerman |92-93|1.41|4.57| Ciccarelli , Gallant
Turgeon|92-93|1.52|1.74|Thomas, King
Gilmour |92-93|1.71|1.95|Borschevsky, Anderson
Roenick|92-93|1.53|2.43|Larmer, Goulet
Janney|92-93|1.05|1.13| Hull , Shanahan Sakic |92-93|0.92|1.54| Sundin , Kovalenko

Three things really stand out. Alexander Mogilny's 76 goal season, Dave Andreychuk's ~50 games as a Sabre before being traded, and Gerard Gallant being massively outscored. Every linemate except those three is within the 1.39 to 1.97 range.

The lowest-scoring linemates on the list:
Glenn Anderson 65pts
Dave Andreychuk (BUF only) 61pts
Gerard Gallant 30pts

Now here are the top two centers from each Norris division team, separated by team and in order by points, separated by line (first six players are first-liners, then second-liners, etc.):

Player|Team|Season|%1st|%2nd|Linemates
Yzerman |DET|92-93|1.41|4.57| Ciccarelli , Gallant
Gilmour |TOR|92-93|1.71|1.95|Borschevsky, Anderson
Roenick|CHI|92-93|1.53|2.43|Larmer, Goulet
Janney|STL|92-93|1.05|1.13| Hull , Shanahan Modano |MIN|92-93|1.18|2.33|Courtnall, McPhee
Bradley|TB|92-93|1.54|1.69|Tucker, Kontos

Fedorov |DET|92-93|1.40|1.98|Ysebaert, Drake
Gagner|MIN|92-93|1.03|2.00|Dahlen, Craig
Emerson|STL|92-93|1.59|2.70|Miller, Korolev
Ruuttu|CHI|92-93|1.46|1.69|Gilbert, Graham
Cullen|TOR|92-93|1.00|1.03|Krushelnyski, Clark
Creighton|TB|92-93|0.91|1.26|Zamuner, Bureau

Sutter|CHI|92-93|1.64|1.80|Matteau, Noonan
Carson|DET|92-93|0.77|1.60|Sheppard, Primeau

Now let's look at the 1955-56 season's top scoring centers. I've included the top two centers from each team (plus the #3 from Detroit, Chicago, and Montreal); in order of scoring by line (top-six are first-liners, and so-on):

Player|Team|Season|%1st|%2nd|Linemates
Beliveau |MTL|55-56|1.26|1.42| Olmstead , Geoffrion
Sloan|TOR|55-56|1.38|1.78| Armstrong , Duff
Reibel|DET|55-56|0.71|1.12| Howe , Lindsay
Sullivan|CHI|55-56|1.52|1.74| Litzenberger , Wilson
Popein|NYR|55-56|0.59|0.93| Bathgate , Prentice
Gardner|BOS|55-56|1.71|1.95|Stasiuk, Peirson

Delvecchio |DET|55-56|2.68|3.40|Dineen, Ferguson
Creighton|NYR|55-56|1.16|1.28|Murphy, Hergesheimer
H.Richard |MTL|55-56|0.56|0.80| M.Richard , Moore
McKenney|BOS|55-56|1.00|2.13|Labine, MacKell
Migay|TOR|55-56|1.04|1.47|Stewart, Balfour
Skov|CHI|55-56|0.69|1.23|Mickoski, Leswick

Ciesla|CHI|55-56|1.19|1.24|Lalande, Watson
Mosdell|MTL|55-56|0.94|1.03|Curry, Provost
Ullman |DET|55-56|0.64|1.00|Prystai, Pavelich

And Ullman was a rookie who saw limited action.

I'm not seeing where 55-56 has better top-end centers, based on HHOF voting. In fact, Montreal's general strength at forward over the other teams is pretty evident. If we are to assume that HHOF voting properly represents greatness, then it's fair to say that Yzerman was playing against equal competition in his division and greater competition league-wide. And Yzerman was among the scoring leaders with what were clearly the weakest linemates, while Beliveau led in scoring with what were clearly the strongest linemates. Beliveau's wingers actually scored five more points (132-127) than Yzerman's wingers did, despite the season being 14 games shorter and the league average scoring level being lower. I think it's also interesting to note that Yzerman outscored both of his wingers combined by ten points, while Beliveau only scored at 2/3 the rate of his wingers' total.
 

pdd

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Feb 7, 2010
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Pappyline, your post suggests a very interesting comparable - the transition from the OHA/OHL to the NHL of Stan Mikita and Steve Yzerman.

Stan Mikita
http://www.hockey-reference.com/players/m/mikitst01.html

Steve Yzerman
http://www.hockey-reference.com/players/y/yzermst01.html

Both had impressive junior careers and entered the NHL as underagers. Both were RHS centers with a solid defensive game. How long did it take each to become a top three NHL player?

Note, if the mods feel this comparison merits a distinct thread ....

Both players have May birthdays. Mikita was born in 1950 and reached top-three in 1962-63. Yzerman was born in 1965 and reached top-three in 1987-88. So they were both 22/23 when they did it.
 

BraveCanadian

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Jun 30, 2010
14,521
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You're absolutely right here, but what's a better way to do it? How else do you compare the offensive dominance from a lower scoring league to a higher scoring one?

I don't think there is a good way to do it. I think it falls into best guess territory. There are just too many variables.

So we kinda do the best we can..

In this particular case, when Beliveau had 88 points to win the Art Rose, he had 17 more points than the nearest player not named Gordie Howe, which is a pretty big margin even in absolute terms, let alone percentages.

True but that was a hell of a gap between Yzerman and anyone not playing with one of the two top offensive players of all time (and some of them with the second best offensive defenseman of all time too) in 88-89 as well. Not that I think that is exactly the right way to look at it either but just to put it in perspective.

Especially considering the team situation he was in.
 

pdd

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Feb 7, 2010
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True but that was a hell of a gap between Yzerman and anyone not playing with one of the two top offensive players of all time (and some of them with the second best offensive defenseman of all time too) in 88-89 as well. Not that I think that is exactly the right way to look at it either but just to put it in perspective.

Especially considering the team situation he was in.

Yep... if we go a step further and remove all Penguins and Kings players, the top ten scorers look like this:

Player|Team|G-A-Pts
Steve Yzerman|DET|65-90-155
Joe Mullen|CGY|51-59-110
Jari Kurri|EDM|44-58-102
Jimmy Carson|EDM|49-51-100
Dale Hawerchuk|WPG|41-55-96
Mark Messier|EDM|33-61-94
Gerard Gallant|DET|39-54-93
Ed Olczyk|TOR|38-52-90
Kevin Dineen|HFD|45-44-89
Mike Ridley|WSH|41-48-89

It's likely that Nicholls still finishes 100+, and Coffey might still manage 90+. But there's no chance that Brown, Quinn, or even Robitaille stay 90+ if you just pull out the big two. So it would be four, possibly five 100-point scorers and Yzerman tagging 155.
 

Canadiens1958

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Comparables

To answer these questions, we'll look at the top handful of centers from 92-93. In bold are HHOFers, underlined are those expected to be inducted soon.

Player|Season|%1st|%2nd|Linemates
Lemieux |92-93|1.44|1.47|Stevens, Tocchet
LaFontaine |92-93|1.17|2.43|Mogilny, Andreychuk
Oates |92-93|1.39|1.97|Juneau, Kvartalnov
Yzerman |92-93|1.41|4.57| Ciccarelli , Gallant
Turgeon|92-93|1.52|1.74|Thomas, King
Gilmour |92-93|1.71|1.95|Borschevsky, Anderson
Roenick|92-93|1.53|2.43|Larmer, Goulet
Janney|92-93|1.05|1.13| Hull , Shanahan Sakic |92-93|0.92|1.54| Sundin , Kovalenko

Three things really stand out. Alexander Mogilny's 76 goal season, Dave Andreychuk's ~50 games as a Sabre before being traded, and Gerard Gallant being massively outscored. Every linemate except those three is within the 1.39 to 1.97 range.

The lowest-scoring linemates on the list:
Glenn Anderson 65pts
Dave Andreychuk (BUF only) 61pts
Gerard Gallant 30pts

Now here are the top two centers from each Norris division team, separated by team and in order by points, separated by line (first six players are first-liners, then second-liners, etc.):

Player|Team|Season|%1st|%2nd|Linemates
Yzerman |DET|92-93|1.41|4.57| Ciccarelli , Gallant
Gilmour |TOR|92-93|1.71|1.95|Borschevsky, Anderson
Roenick|CHI|92-93|1.53|2.43|Larmer, Goulet
Janney|STL|92-93|1.05|1.13| Hull , Shanahan Modano |MIN|92-93|1.18|2.33|Courtnall, McPhee
Bradley|TB|92-93|1.54|1.69|Tucker, Kontos

Fedorov |DET|92-93|1.40|1.98|Ysebaert, Drake
Gagner|MIN|92-93|1.03|2.00|Dahlen, Craig
Emerson|STL|92-93|1.59|2.70|Miller, Korolev
Ruuttu|CHI|92-93|1.46|1.69|Gilbert, Graham
Cullen|TOR|92-93|1.00|1.03|Krushelnyski, Clark
Creighton|TB|92-93|0.91|1.26|Zamuner, Bureau

Sutter|CHI|92-93|1.64|1.80|Matteau, Noonan
Carson|DET|92-93|0.77|1.60|Sheppard, Primeau

Now let's look at the 1955-56 season's top scoring centers. I've included the top two centers from each team (plus the #3 from Detroit, Chicago, and Montreal); in order of scoring by line (top-six are first-liners, and so-on):

Player|Team|Season|%1st|%2nd|Linemates
Beliveau |MTL|55-56|1.26|1.42| Olmstead , Geoffrion
Sloan|TOR|55-56|1.38|1.78| Armstrong , Duff
Reibel|DET|55-56|0.71|1.12| Howe , Lindsay
Sullivan|CHI|55-56|1.52|1.74| Litzenberger , Wilson
Popein|NYR|55-56|0.59|0.93| Bathgate , Prentice
Gardner|BOS|55-56|1.71|1.95|Stasiuk, Peirson

Delvecchio |DET|55-56|2.68|3.40|Dineen, Ferguson
Creighton|NYR|55-56|1.16|1.28|Murphy, Hergesheimer
H.Richard |MTL|55-56|0.56|0.80| M.Richard , Moore
McKenney|BOS|55-56|1.00|2.13|Labine, MacKell
Migay|TOR|55-56|1.04|1.47|Stewart, Balfour
Skov|CHI|55-56|0.69|1.23|Mickoski, Leswick

Ciesla|CHI|55-56|1.19|1.24|Lalande, Watson
Mosdell|MTL|55-56|0.94|1.03|Curry, Provost
Ullman |DET|55-56|0.64|1.00|Prystai, Pavelich

And Ullman was a rookie who saw limited action.

I'm not seeing where 55-56 has better top-end centers, based on HHOF voting. In fact, Montreal's general strength at forward over the other teams is pretty evident. If we are to assume that HHOF voting properly represents greatness, then it's fair to say that Yzerman was playing against equal competition in his division and greater competition league-wide. And Yzerman was among the scoring leaders with what were clearly the weakest linemates, while Beliveau led in scoring with what were clearly the strongest linemates. Beliveau's wingers actually scored five more points (132-127) than Yzerman's wingers did, despite the season being 14 games shorter and the league average scoring level being lower. I think it's also interesting to note that Yzerman outscored both of his wingers combined by ten points, while Beliveau only scored at 2/3 the rate of his wingers' total.

Your attempts at reconstructing the 1955-56 season are rather weak. Players listed out of position, ignored - Doug Mohns, Real Chevrefils, Lorne Ferguson played more with Boston than Detroit = dubious team assignments. Suggest checking your data against the HSP and the AST voting available here:

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=145895&page=5

Then you shift the Yzerman comparable from 1988-89 to 1992-93. A very favourable offensive season. Still, only checking a ten game sampling from the season, it is clear that Steve Yzerman was being double shifted with Burr and Kennedy, Sheppard and Probert,Ysebaert and Fedorov as linemates other than the ones you attribute:

http://www.flyershistory.com/cgi-bin/poboxscore.cgi?H19920021

http://www.flyershistory.com/cgi-bin/poboxscore.cgi?H19920198

http://www.flyershistory.com/cgi-bin/poboxscore.cgi?H19920265

Similar tendencies may be found for the 1988-89 season.

Doing other seasons for Beliveau thru his career does not show such linemate movement while sustaining the higher level of competition position.

Simply your data and conclusions are slipping as you move along.
 

Hardyvan123

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Jul 4, 2010
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Pappyline, your post suggests a very interesting comparable - the transition from the OHA/OHL to the NHL of Stan Mikita and Steve Yzerman.

Stan Mikita
http://www.hockey-reference.com/players/m/mikitst01.html

Steve Yzerman
http://www.hockey-reference.com/players/y/yzermst01.html

Both had impressive junior careers and entered the NHL as underagers. Both were RHS centers with a solid defensive game. How long did it take each to become a top three NHL player?

Note, if the mods feel this comparison merits a distinct thread ....

Why ask, how long it took each player to become a top 3 player,instead of comparing their season by season resume?

Stan played in 3 games as an 18 year old, Steve had an 80-39-48-87 line and led hi team in scoring

At 19 Stan was 67-8-18-26 good for 10th on the black Hawks.

Steve was 80-30-59-89 for 3rd on the Red Wings.

At 20 Stan was 66-19-34-55 good for 3rd on his team.

Steve was 51-14-28-42 good for 7th on his team.

Interestingly enough his top scoring team mates from the year before dropped in their production dramatically even though they were in their prime. John Ogrodnick was 26 and ron Duguay was 28 with huge point drops.

At 21 Stan was 70-25-52-77 (2nd in assists and 3rd in points)

Here you were probably going to say that Stan was a top 3 player Or at least in the mix) in the league while Steve wasn't. This is true but it needs context as well.


Stan was playing with Bobby Hull on that Black Hawk team, probably as line mates for at least some of the time. Pierre Pilote was the top Dman on the team, the year before his 1st Norris and with a 59-7-35-42 line (which was very good for the time period)

Steve was 80-31-59-90 (7th in assists and 12th in points)

A 23 year old Gerrard Gallant and for the last 37 games Dave Barr were his line mates and Darren Vietch was the PP QB from the back end with a 77-13-45-58 line which was good for the time, 9th best to be exact). Pilote by contrast was 3rd, 5 points behind the league leader despite missing 11 games.

So while it's true that Stan did become a top 3 player in the league earlier and 1st (in his 4th season), it's also true that Steve had a much better overall first 4 seasons than Stan did and the magnitude of the difference is greater than Stan being 3rd in points in 62 and Steve being 12 in points in 87.

That's even before we try to account for the vast different situations and players they were playing with.

I've always liked Stan as a player and most here I think would have him above Steve in the top center rankings I would think but I'm not so sure about that.
 

vadim sharifijanov

Registered User
Oct 10, 2007
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yep... If we go a step further and remove all penguins and kings players, the top ten scorers look like this:

player|team|g-a-pts
steve yzerman|det|65-90-155
joe mullen|cgy|51-59-110
jari kurri|edm|44-58-102
jimmy carson|edm|49-51-100
dale hawerchuk|wpg|41-55-96
mark messier|edm|33-61-94
gerard gallant|det|39-54-93
ed olczyk|tor|38-52-90
kevin dineen|hfd|45-44-89
mike ridley|wsh|41-48-89

it's likely that nicholls still finishes 100+, and coffey might still manage 90+. But there's no chance that brown, quinn, or even robitaille stay 90+ if you just pull out the big two. So it would be four, possibly five 100-point scorers and yzerman tagging 155.

1987-88 21 lak nhl 80 53 58 111
1988-89 22 lak nhl 78 46 52 98
 

pdd

Registered User
Feb 7, 2010
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Your attempts at reconstructing the 1955-56 season are rather weak. Players listed out of position, ignored - Doug Mohns, Real Chevrefils, Lorne Ferguson played more with Boston than Detroit = dubious team assignments. Suggest checking your data against the HSP and the AST voting available here:

I used HSP to try and determine who the most common linemates were. If you have more in depth research regarding the 1955-56 season, please share it. As I have said before, I would prefer you let me know if I have made a mistake regarding linemates and offering up a correction (and supporting evidence) instead of simply saying "You're wrong, do it again!"

Then you shift the Yzerman comparable from 1988-89 to 1992-93. A very favourable offensive season. Still, only checking a ten game sampling from the season, it is clear that Steve Yzerman was being double shifted with Burr and Kennedy, Sheppard and Probert,Ysebaert and Fedorov as linemates other than the ones you attribute:

Similar tendencies may be found for the 1988-89 season.

And similar tendencies may be found with Beliveau playing alongside Moore and/or one or both Richard brothers in 55-56. It's almost as if they were superstar players and their teams wanted them on the ice as much as possible.

I'll work on the 88-89 data for you. :)
 

pdd

Registered User
Feb 7, 2010
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1987-88 21 lak nhl 80 53 58 111
1988-89 22 lak nhl 78 46 52 98

In 87-88, he played on the top line and top PP unit with Jimmy Carson and Dave Taylor. In 88-89, he played on the top PP unit with Gretzky and Nicholls, and played with Nicholls and Taylor at ES. He had 69 ES points and 42 PP points; the following season that split was 74 and 24. Under heavier defensive pressure I don't think he increases his scoring, even if the offensive dynamic does turn from Gretzky the passer and Nicholls the finisher into Nicholls the passer and Robitaille the finisher.
 

Canadiens1958

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ES Linemates

I used HSP to try and determine who the most common linemates were. If you have more in depth research regarding the 1955-56 season, please share it. As I have said before, I would prefer you let me know if I have made a mistake regarding linemates and offering up a correction (and supporting evidence) instead of simply saying "You're wrong, do it again!"



And similar tendencies may be found with Beliveau playing alongside Moore and/or one or both Richard brothers in 55-56. It's almost as if they were superstar players and their teams wanted them on the ice as much as possible.

I'll work on the 88-89 data for you. :)

Doubt you will find any ES goals that may be attributed to a line featuring Beliveau with Moore during the 1955-56 season.
 

Canadiens1958

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PP Units

In 87-88, he played on the top line and top PP unit with Jimmy Carson and Dave Taylor. In 88-89, he played on the top PP unit with Gretzky and Nicholls, and played with Nicholls and Taylor at ES. He had 69 ES points and 42 PP points; the following season that split was 74 and 24. Under heavier defensive pressure I don't think he increases his scoring, even if the offensive dynamic does turn from Gretzky the passer and Nicholls the finisher into Nicholls the passer and Robitaille the finisher.

It seems that you are lacking a distinction between a three forward/two defensemen and four forward/one defenseman PP formations.
 

toob

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Dec 31, 2010
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I'm confused, I thought people always said that Yzerman's offensive stats were artificially suppressed in the second half of his career because he played on a talented, deep team? Apparently Beliveau's numbers were boosted when he was in a similar situation.

I still don't get the idea that Beliveau's offensive numbers are inflated due to him having great line-mates and D-men. But somehow Yzerman's low offensive numbers are impact of him playing in a stacked team.

What tickles my brain too, is that how did Beliveau benefit from having better team cause he played in the O6 era, but Yzerman still faced tougher competition night in and night out?

Do anyone else see double standards here?

havent bothered to read the entire thread carefully so maybe it is being presented as a simple double standard but there is more to this particular line of argument and just dismissing it as a double standard seems simplistic

The Wings were stacked from 93 onwards which is right around when Yzerman's offensive prime was ending. From 95 onwards the Red Wings actually did play a very different team style. For example Yzerman played more at EV with Bob Errey in a checking role then he did with Ciccarelli/Primeau in 95 and 96. Yzerman feasted on the PP for his offense after 95 because that was the main time he could leverage his stacked team offensively, not really at EV much.

In 91 and 92 they were actually stacked down the middle but not really in general. Gallant also was basically finished as an effective player after his back injury in 91 and that was Yzerman's most consistent winger. This depth at center and even less depth at wing is almost always given as the main reason why Yzerman's numbers go down from everything that discusses Yzerman's scoring decline in the early 90s. Yzerman's time on the PP actually decreased in the early 90s due to the depth at center and his PP scoring went down. In 93 when the Red Wings were a powerhouse PP team, Yzerman wasnt playing as much of the PP as he was in the late 80s.

The Wings really werent stacked in the late 80s and esp in 89 and 90 they were very much played as a one line team despite having Oates. Yzerman here didnt have great wingers or D, even if we say relative to the league because Montreal was still stacked relative to the O6 and most top line centers had more help than Yzerman in the late 80s. Yzerman played most of the PP under Demers but his PP numbers werent exactly too high because the Wings PP wasnt great and basically sucked without Yzerman.

Is Yzerman's stacked team situation comparable to Beliveau's stacked team in general? The Montreal wingers during Beliveau's time were scoring leaders themselves. Im assuming they did play with Beliveau regularly but even if not wouldnt they play on the PP where it has been said Beliveau's numbers really shine? The best comparable situation to Believeau for Yzerman you can really do is the second half of 93 after the Carson/Coffey trade when he saw his EV and PP icetime increased and played with Coffey... he scored a crap ton after that trade btw

By the way in case you are wondering it isnt like he got to score much with the other top centers on the team either. Oates had points on less than 10% of Yzerman's in 89, and only 1 in 88. Fedorov had 7% in 93, Fedorov would probably see higher %s in 91 and 94 though but i havent checked. Carson was basically a non factor in Yzerman's scoring the entire time he was a Red Wing.
 

Peter9

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Apr 1, 2008
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Seriously you are going to use hockey reference to cite that the Habs had those 4 guys maybe playing kinda equal minutes or something correlating to their goal scoring?

Hockey reference uses the position as a base and there is no correlation between any actual ice time and position from that era.

What we do have is GP and using hockey reference this is how it breaks down

Center

Jean 60
Henri 70
Phil 65
Ralph 64
Cec 4 for a total of 263/70 games is 3.75 centers /game

For RW it's 223 games for the 4 RW listed for 3.19 RW/ game

For LW it's 262 games for 5 LW listed for 3.74 LW/Game

This is just a guess here but with the limited information we have it's safe to say that some centers were playing on the wing in some games and a guy like Jean was probably playing top forward minutes on that team.

C1958, you have provided zero proof that the Habs were rolling 4 lines here or that Jean's ice time would have been any less than Steve's during his prime.

I don't know if Canadiens1958 was watching the Canadiens back then, although his pseudonym suggests he was, and I do know he has done considerable research into the era going well beyond a hockey database. But I was watching them throughout Beliveau's career, and I can confirm that what Canadiens1958 says about Blake rolling four lines to ensure that his entire team remained as fresh as possible throughout the regular season and the playoffs is indeed true.

In fact, Beliveau, who played on the power play, got less even strength time than Henri Richard, who did not get much power play time. Remember that shifts were much longer then, usually anywhere between 90 seconds and two minutes, and so Beliveau typically would stay on the ice for the entire two-minute power play. (Because shifts were much longer, players usually stayed on the ice until a stoppage in play, when line changes were more convenient, which is why "changing on the fly" was unusual enough that the early television and radio commentators always mentioned it when it happened. Now changing on the fly is a regular occurrence in view of the much shorter shifts, and commentators do not use the term nearly as often.) Through the end of the 1955-56 season, power plays did not end on the scoring of a goal, so that meant more power play ice time for the players. That Beliveau had so much power play time meant that he was given that much less even strength ice time in view of Blake's policy of spreading time fairly evenly among four forward lines.

Furthermore, when the Canadiens had a game well in hand, as they often did in those days, Blake would sometimes rest his biggest stars, including Beliveau, to protect them from possible injury as well as to keep them fresh.

Blake was an extremely astute coach--in my view the best ever--and he managed the time on ice factor very well.
 
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Canadiens1958

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Defensemen and Goaltending

Previously in this thread there were attempts by HV and Sentinel at comparing the quality of the defensemen and goaltenders from the 1955-56 season to the 1988-89 season. Since its been raised by EUZ, I'll throw in the 1992-93 season.

AST voting is a misleading factor in such considerations. Fundamental to the positions studied is not allowing goals.

So let's look at a quick snapshot of the three seasons.

1992-93 season featured a fully integrated NHL. Yet if we look at the game results featuring the Red Wings:

http://www.flyershistory.com/cgi-bin/hspgames.cgi

we see numerous games where one of the two teams scored six or more goals. In fact the Red Wings won, tied or lost defensive struggles that saw scores like 9-6, 10-5, 11-6, 10-7, 9-7, 8-5, 6-6. Junior B hockey.

1988-89 season featured a partially integrated NHL. Yet if we look at the game results featuring the Red Wings:

http://www.flyershistory.com/cgi-bin/hspgames.cgi

again numerous games where one of the two teams scored six or more goals including 6-6, 8-8, 10-5, 8-5, 8-6 games.

Little actual evidence of defensive or goaltending quality during the 1988-89 or 1992-93 seasons in Detroit. Yet the Red Wings were playoff teams both seasons.

1955-56 season Canadian based NHL. Canadiens games:

http://www.flyershistory.com/cgi-bin/hspgames.cgi

Canadiens, an offensive powerhouse were shutout five times, held to one goal eleven times, held to two goals thirteen times.

Conversely, the 6th place Blackhawks, gave up 6 or 7 goals 11 times during the 1955-56 season:

http://www.flyershistory.com/cgi-bin/hspgames.cgi

The 1988-89 Red Wings were weaker defensively than the 1955-56 Hawks, giving up 6 to 10 goals at least 15 times.
 

vadim sharifijanov

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Oct 10, 2007
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In 87-88, he played on the top line and top PP unit with Jimmy Carson and Dave Taylor. In 88-89, he played on the top PP unit with Gretzky and Nicholls, and played with Nicholls and Taylor at ES. He had 69 ES points and 42 PP points; the following season that split was 74 and 24. Under heavier defensive pressure I don't think he increases his scoring, even if the offensive dynamic does turn from Gretzky the passer and Nicholls the finisher into Nicholls the passer and Robitaille the finisher.

the point is, yeah we can very safely predict that brown and quinn don't come close to their totals without mario. and ditto nicholls w/o gretzky. but if you look at robitaille's prime, he tends to score more without gretzky than with.

in fact, you could even say that when gretzky has a monster year ('89, '90, '91, '94), robitaille tops out at just over 100 points, and scores as little as 86. when gretzky isn't there yet ('88), has an off-year by his own monstrous standards ('92), and is hurt for more than half the year ('93), robitaille tops 105 each time, finishes 5th, 5th, and 9th in points, cracks the top five in goals twice (the only two of his career), and the year he wasn't top five in points cracked top ten in assists (the only time in his career). the highest robitaille ever finished in the scoring with gretzky putting up a monster year is 10th.

1987-88 21 LAK NHL 80 53 [4] 58 [13] 111 [5] (gretzky in edm)
1988-89 22 LAK NHL 78 46 [10] 52 [23] 98 [10] (gretzky finishes 2nd, scores 160)
1989-90 23 LAK NHL 80 52 [6] 49 [33] 101 [12] (gretzky wins art ross, 140)
1990-91 24 LAK NHL 76 45 [7] 46 [39] 91 [15] (gretzky wins ross, 160)
1991-92 25 LAK NHL 80 44 [7] 63 [10] 107 [5] (gretzky "slumps," finishes 3rd, 120)
1992-93 26 LAK NHL 84 63 [4] 62 [20] 125 [9] (gretzky injured, 65)
1993-94 27 LAK NHL 83 44 [12] 42 [55] 86 [24] (gretzky wins ross, 130)

[finishes in square brackets]
 

Hardyvan123

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Previously in this thread there were attempts by HV and Sentinel at comparing the quality of the defensemen and goaltenders from the 1955-56 season to the 1988-89 season. Since its been raised by EUZ, I'll throw in the 1992-93 season.

AST voting is a misleading factor in such considerations. Fundamental to the positions studied is not allowing goals.

How is AST/Norris voting not relevant to evaluating Dmen from the 06 era? It's one of the few tools we do have, even if it is limited by the human factor.

The fact of the matter is that the trend here is that for players we have more information for, we tend to find more holes in their overall game, and for past players with limited information all too often they are given the benefit of the doubt.

So let's look at a quick snapshot of the three seasons.

1992-93 season featured a fully integrated NHL. Yet if we look at the game results featuring the Red Wings:


The 92-93 season also included the expansion Sharks and Sens and was possibly the 1st year of full integration.

Integration would be more complete and have a larger impact after the 92-93 season, although it's interesting to note that only 3 of 6 and 1 of 6 members of the post season all stars were Canadians.

the diferences from the 93-94 season are alos being elft out here.

In 93 the league avaerage was 305 GF/per team.

The following season only 2 teams scored that average Det (356) and NJ (306) and the average fell down to 272/team, which is a dramatic shift.

Jean's 06 time was rather static, compared to the massive changes going on in Steve's career, to only focus on the high scoring era, which is less than half of Steve's career is either misguided or misleading.
 
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Rhiessan71

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The 92-93 season also included the expansion Sharks and Sens

And Lightning.
and was possibly the 1st year of full integration.

NO! It was not, 89/90 is when the vast majority of the previously undrafted/"curtain lifted free agent" Russians and Czechs came over. Almost every one of the Russians or Czechs coming over after 89/90 were drafted players.
One might make the case that 90/91 was the first year of FULL integration but it's debatable.
Either way, it certainly wasn't as late as 92/93.
 
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Boom Boom Bear

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May 23, 2007
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Yep... if we go a step further and remove all Penguins and Kings players, the top ten scorers look like this:

Player|Team|G-A-Pts
Steve Yzerman|DET|65-90-155
Joe Mullen|CGY|51-59-110
Jari Kurri|EDM|44-58-102
Jimmy Carson|EDM|49-51-100
Dale Hawerchuk|WPG|41-55-96
Mark Messier|EDM|33-61-94
Gerard Gallant|DET|39-54-93
Ed Olczyk|TOR|38-52-90
Kevin Dineen|HFD|45-44-89
Mike Ridley|WSH|41-48-89

It's likely that Nicholls still finishes 100+, and Coffey might still manage 90+. But there's no chance that Brown, Quinn, or even Robitaille stay 90+ if you just pull out the big two. So it would be four, possibly five 100-point scorers and Yzerman tagging 155.

Every time in one of these threads someone decides to arbitrarily remove Gretzky, Lemieux & their high-scoring teammates from the mix in order to give players on other teams "the shine," you move away from facts-based analysis into realms of pure conjecture that are completely unprovable. "Gee, look how much better Yzerman looks when we take ten players out of the mix, when he's not being outscored by 44 points by Lemieux, or only outscoring Nicholls by 5." Easy enough to do, but it really doesn't help your case, because it takes the whole argument one abstraction further from the original case of comparing Yzerman to Beliveau.

It also undermines your argument about the quality of Yzerman's linemates, because this scenario vaults Gallant into the position of First Team All-Star on left wing, meaning that Yzerman was playing with the best left winger in the league at the time [y'know, kinda similar to how he played with First Team All-Star John Ogrodnick in 85, the guy who outscored Yzerman, who tied with Ron Duguay, by 16 points.]

It further undermines your "quality of opposition" arguments to see a top 10 with the likes of Olczyk, Dineen & Ridley.
 

Hardyvan123

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And Lightning.

Yes I forgot them, either way the change is goal scoring between 93 and 94 was dramatic to say the least.


NO! It was not, 89/90 is when the vast majority of the previously undrafted/"curtain lifted free agent" Russians and Czechs came over. Almost every one of the Russians or Czechs coming over after 89/90 were drafted players.
One might make the case that 90/91 was the first year of FULL integration but it's debatable.
Either way, it certainly wasn't as late as 92/93.

Okay let's go over this again, players with over 30GP, 90, 91,92,93, skip to 96 to show increase

Czech 10,16,14, 23...27
Finland 14, 8, 7, 9.....12
Sweden 15,15,13,17.....23
Russia 6,11,17,36....46

United States 72,76,76,88....86

In 90 we have (45+72=117)

So in 92, the NHL added San Jose (51+76=127). That's 1 more team and 6 more guys from Europe and 4 from the US.

In 93 they added TB and Ottawa(85+88) and increase of 34 and 12.

So in total by 93, with 3 more teams we have 40 more guys from Europe and 16 more from the US

Then in 94 they add Florida and Anaheim so by 96 there are 26 teams in the league. (108+86=194).

so in 7 years they go from your version of full integration and add 5 more teams and 63 guys from Europe and 14 from the US.

So basically, the increase in the numbers of players outstrips the rate of increase of the numbers of teams. Let's continue here.

today we have 30 teams in the NHL, 9 more than in 90. I will use the full 12 season as the example, not the shortened 13 one.

Czech 44
Finland 18
Sweden 42
Russia 23

US 96

So that's 127 and 96 up from the 45+72=117 of 1990

So with 9 more teams we have 82 more guys from Europe, well probably over 90 if we count the Danes, Germans and other countries and 24 more from the states for 106 guys, well over 10 players per team (of the 9 new teams).

Any way you look at it Full integration wasn't around in 90 yet.

Also the increase, in pure numbers, has been greater in the number of players than the increase of teams of 21 from the early almost all Canadian NHL.

So Steve played in a vastly changed landscape than the stable one of Jean i his 6 team league.
 

Rhiessan71

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Yes I forgot them, either way the change is goal scoring between 93 and 94 was dramatic to say the least.




Okay let's go over this again, players with over 30GP, 90, 91,92,93, skip to 96 to show increase

Czech 10,16,14, 23...27
Finland 14, 8, 7, 9.....12
Sweden 15,15,13,17.....23
Russia 6,11,17,36....46

United States 72,76,76,88....86

In 90 we have (45+72=117)

So in 92, the NHL added San Jose (51+76=127). That's 1 more team and 6 more guys from Europe and 4 from the US.

In 93 they added TB and Ottawa(85+88) and increase of 34 and 12.

So in total by 93, with 3 more teams we have 40 more guys from Europe and 16 more from the US

Then in 94 they add Florida and Anaheim so by 96 there are 26 teams in the league. (108+86=194).

so in 7 years they go from your version of full integration and add 5 more teams and 63 guys from Europe and 14 from the US.

So basically, the increase in the numbers of players outstrips the rate of increase of the numbers of teams. Let's continue here.

today we have 30 teams in the NHL, 9 more than in 90. I will use the full 12 season as the example, not the shortened 13 one.

Czech 44
Finland 18
Sweden 42
Russia 23

US 96

So that's 127 and 96 up from the 45+72=117 of 1990

So with 9 more teams we have 82 more guys from Europe, well probably over 90 if we count the Danes, Germans and other countries and 24 more from the states for 106 guys, well over 10 players per team (of the 9 new teams).

Any way you look at it Full integration wasn't around in 90 yet.

Also the increase, in pure numbers, has been greater in the number of players than the increase of teams of 21 from the early almost all Canadian NHL.

So Steve played in a vastly changed landscape than the stable one of Jean i his 6 team league.


It doesn't matter what your census tells you.
The FACT is that in 89/90 the curtain was lifted.
Most of the top Russian and Czech players that were draft ineligible and NHL ready came over that year or the next.
The rest of your census is from the Russian and Czech players that started getting drafted in '89 and beyond.

I asked you to show me this before and you didn't. Please show me how many UNDRAFTED Russians and Czechs came to the NHL after '90.

The League was "fully integrated" in '90 period!
 

seventieslord

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I have no idea what you're talking about.

That's kinda the problem.

To answer these questions, we'll look at the top handful of centers from 92-93. In bold are HHOFers, underlined are those expected to be inducted soon.

Player|Season|%1st|%2nd|Linemates
Lemieux |92-93|1.44|1.47|Stevens, Tocchet
LaFontaine |92-93|1.17|2.43|Mogilny, Andreychuk
Oates |92-93|1.39|1.97|Juneau, Kvartalnov
Yzerman |92-93|1.41|4.57| Ciccarelli , Gallant
Turgeon|92-93|1.52|1.74|Thomas, King
Gilmour |92-93|1.71|1.95|Borschevsky, Anderson
Roenick|92-93|1.53|2.43|Larmer, Goulet
Janney|92-93|1.05|1.13| Hull , Shanahan Sakic |92-93|0.92|1.54| Sundin , Kovalenko

Three things really stand out. Alexander Mogilny's 76 goal season, Dave Andreychuk's ~50 games as a Sabre before being traded, and Gerard Gallant being massively outscored. Every linemate except those three is within the 1.39 to 1.97 range.

The lowest-scoring linemates on the list:
Glenn Anderson 65pts
Dave Andreychuk (BUF only) 61pts
Gerard Gallant 30pts

Now here are the top two centers from each Norris division team, separated by team and in order by points, separated by line (first six players are first-liners, then second-liners, etc.):

Player|Team|Season|%1st|%2nd|Linemates
Yzerman |DET|92-93|1.41|4.57| Ciccarelli , Gallant
Gilmour |TOR|92-93|1.71|1.95|Borschevsky, Anderson
Roenick|CHI|92-93|1.53|2.43|Larmer, Goulet
Janney|STL|92-93|1.05|1.13| Hull , Shanahan Modano |MIN|92-93|1.18|2.33|Courtnall, McPhee
Bradley|TB|92-93|1.54|1.69|Tucker, Kontos

Fedorov |DET|92-93|1.40|1.98|Ysebaert, Drake
Gagner|MIN|92-93|1.03|2.00|Dahlen, Craig
Emerson|STL|92-93|1.59|2.70|Miller, Korolev
Ruuttu|CHI|92-93|1.46|1.69|Gilbert, Graham
Cullen|TOR|92-93|1.00|1.03|Krushelnyski, Clark
Creighton|TB|92-93|0.91|1.26|Zamuner, Bureau

Sutter|CHI|92-93|1.64|1.80|Matteau, Noonan
Carson|DET|92-93|0.77|1.60|Sheppard, Primeau

Now let's look at the 1955-56 season's top scoring centers. I've included the top two centers from each team (plus the #3 from Detroit, Chicago, and Montreal); in order of scoring by line (top-six are first-liners, and so-on):

Player|Team|Season|%1st|%2nd|Linemates
Beliveau |MTL|55-56|1.26|1.42| Olmstead , Geoffrion
Sloan|TOR|55-56|1.38|1.78| Armstrong , Duff
Reibel|DET|55-56|0.71|1.12| Howe , Lindsay
Sullivan|CHI|55-56|1.52|1.74| Litzenberger , Wilson
Popein|NYR|55-56|0.59|0.93| Bathgate , Prentice
Gardner|BOS|55-56|1.71|1.95|Stasiuk, Peirson

Delvecchio |DET|55-56|2.68|3.40|Dineen, Ferguson
Creighton|NYR|55-56|1.16|1.28|Murphy, Hergesheimer
H.Richard |MTL|55-56|0.56|0.80| M.Richard , Moore
McKenney|BOS|55-56|1.00|2.13|Labine, MacKell
Migay|TOR|55-56|1.04|1.47|Stewart, Balfour
Skov|CHI|55-56|0.69|1.23|Mickoski, Leswick

Ciesla|CHI|55-56|1.19|1.24|Lalande, Watson
Mosdell|MTL|55-56|0.94|1.03|Curry, Provost
Ullman |DET|55-56|0.64|1.00|Prystai, Pavelich

And Ullman was a rookie who saw limited action.

I'm not seeing where 55-56 has better top-end centers, based on HHOF voting. In fact, Montreal's general strength at forward over the other teams is pretty evident. If we are to assume that HHOF voting properly represents greatness, then it's fair to say that Yzerman was playing against equal competition in his division and greater competition league-wide. And Yzerman was among the scoring leaders with what were clearly the weakest linemates, while Beliveau led in scoring with what were clearly the strongest linemates. Beliveau's wingers actually scored five more points (132-127) than Yzerman's wingers did, despite the season being 14 games shorter and the league average scoring level being lower. I think it's also interesting to note that Yzerman outscored both of his wingers combined by ten points, while Beliveau only scored at 2/3 the rate of his wingers' total.

Again, a lot of work to prove nothing the likes of what you think you're proving.

This isn't about the strength of the league or the depth of centers. Although the league got deeper in 40 years, it didn't get 5 times deeper to match the factor by which it increased in size. Therefore, ANY given player from the 50s would have better linemates, because if you assume at least some parity, the winners a scoring line center has are bound to be among the 24 best on earth. Chances are a center in the modern era doesn't have that. But he also doesn't have to play a top pairing with 2 of the 12 best defensemen in the world on it every night, and maybe not ever. It's stupid to use the former point against an o6 player, and to use the second argument against a modern player, but it's really stupid to use both against the same player.
 

Hardyvan123

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Jul 4, 2010
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It doesn't matter what your census tells you.
The FACT is that in 89/90 the curtain was lifted.
Most of the top Russian and Czech players that were draft ineligible and NHL ready came over that year or the next.
The rest of your census is from the Russian and Czech players that started getting drafted in '89 and beyond.

I asked you to show me this before and you didn't. Please show me how many UNDRAFTED Russians and Czechs came to the NHL after '90.

The League was "fully integrated" in '90 period!

That line is as about as use full as the old standby, "the best are always the best."

Context of the conditions that occur each season is extremely important, people tend to underplay it here.

For instance the level of scoring between 92 and 93 with the average going down 30 goals for per team, that's freaking huge.
 

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