Yzerman vs. Beliveau

Plural

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Mar 10, 2011
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You position seems to be that the talent pool is directly proportional to the number of teams in the league. In other words, the quality of the NHL doubled from 1967 to 1968. You have to realize how silly that sounds.

That's what I was trying to say, I just didn't do it very well. :laugh:
 

DisgruntledGoat*

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Dec 26, 2010
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It's not a double standard! Yzerman's 80s Wings had him and him only, so he played a lot of minutes. Yzerman's 90s Wings had three legitimate scoring lines, so he played less minutes.

I concede the Beliveau's ice time issue. I was wrong.

It is absolutely a double-standard when you toggle back and forth between each scenario whenever its most convenient for you.

You used the, 'Yzerman had no support' argument to suggest that Beliveau's numbers were bolstered by the great teams he played on.

Shortly thereafter, you say that Yzerman was at a disdvantage against Gretzky and Beliveau* because his team depth was keeping him from getting the ice-time that other star players got.

Both those scenarios may have been true at different stages of his career, but it needs to be acknowledged that the stars didn't always necessarily align against poor Yzerman either. . . he benefits hugely from those scenarios as well. He doesn't put up the numbers he does in the late 80s, for instance, if Detroit thought up a system of play any more complex than, 'let Yzerman play the whole game'.

We see something similar with Fedorov: 'Fedorov was amazing on offense and defense' -> 'Actually, his offense wasn't that great' -> 'Well, that's because he was playing so much defense!'



* I acknowledge you corrected yourself on Beliveau. Props to you on that. That's better than some can manage.
 

Sentinel

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May 26, 2009
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It is absolutely a double-standard when you toggle back and forth between each scenario whenever its most convenient for you.

You used the, 'Yzerman had no support' argument to suggest that Beliveau's numbers were bolstered by the great teams he played on.

Shortly thereafter, you say that Yzerman was at a disdvantage against Gretzky and Beliveau* because his team depth was keeping him from getting the ice-time that other star players got.

I was only comparing their primes. My post said: "Prime Beliveau had better linemates than Prime Yzerman."

Yzerman's 155 pt. peak should arguably be higher than anything from Beliveau, but career-wise Beliveau stands head-and-shoulders above Y.
 

Plural

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Mar 10, 2011
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I was only comparing their primes. My post said: "Prime Beliveau had better linemates than Prime Yzerman."

Yzerman's 155 pt. peak should arguably be higher than anything from Beliveau, but career-wise Beliveau stands head-and-shoulders above Y.

I agree on the idea that Yzerman had the best regular season of these two. Not by a country mile but nevertheless he did.

After that one season it comes clear which of these two was better.
 

TheDevilMadeMe

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Aug 28, 2006
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Beliveau's 1955-56 season was incredibly dominant. I'm not at all convinced that Yzerman's 1988-89 was any better.

1. Jean Beliveau*-MTL 88
2. Gordie Howe*-DET 79
3. Maurice Richard*-MTL 71
4. Bert Olmstead*-MTL 70
5. Andy Bathgate*-NYR 66
Tod Sloan-TOR 66

That's just regular season though. Add in the playoffs, and it's pretty easily Beliveau:

1. Jean Beliveau*-MTL 19
2. Maurice Richard*-MTL 14
Bert Olmstead*-MTL 14
Bernie Geoffrion*-MTL 14
5. Gordie Howe*-DET 12
 

DisgruntledGoat*

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Dec 26, 2010
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I was only comparing their primes. My post said: "Prime Beliveau had better linemates than Prime Yzerman."

Yzerman's 155 pt. peak should arguably be higher than anything from Beliveau, but career-wise Beliveau stands head-and-shoulders above Y.

No, your post said:

The more I think about it, the closer it seems. Other than the obvious linemates question, which goes in Stevie's favor, the question of opposition quality also favors him. It doesn't matter how stacked and deep their opponents were, because at any given moment every star player only faces two best defensemen on the opposing team. Top defensive players in late 80s-90s were much better than in the 50s, and each team had at least one great defenseman, and naturally they focused on the lone star player on a crappy team, as opposed to a centerman on the loaded Habs squad.

You then say:

That comes from the team system. If a team rolls four lines regularly, the star player doesn't get the same IT as if a team double shifts its top players. Bowman's DRW rolled four lines equally, and they could afford to. Gretzky played near 30 minutes a night, and I'd imagine Beliveau's line did too. Both systems got the job done.

Both of these comments were made while talking about situational factors affecting Yzerman. Each time, you suggest Yzerman got the short end of the stick in reference to these situational factors, despite the fact that each situation was pretty much the polar opposite of the other.
 

DisgruntledGoat*

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Dec 26, 2010
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Beliveau's 1955-56 season was incredibly dominant. I'm not at all convinced that Yzerman's 1988-89 was any better.

1. Jean Beliveau*-MTL 88
2. Gordie Howe*-DET 79
3. Maurice Richard*-MTL 71
4. Bert Olmstead*-MTL 70
5. Andy Bathgate*-NYR 66
Tod Sloan-TOR 66

That's just regular season though. Add in the playoffs, and it's pretty easily Beliveau:

1. Jean Beliveau*-MTL 19
2. Maurice Richard*-MTL 14
Bert Olmstead*-MTL 14
Bernie Geoffrion*-MTL 14
5. Gordie Howe*-DET 12

Yeah, the idea that Yzerman's 155-point is the best non-Lemieux/non-Gretzky offensive season is pure numbers counting. . . which is funny, because number counting is something that is usally verboten when discussing 90s-era Red Wing players.
 

Plural

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Mar 10, 2011
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Beliveau's 1955-56 season was incredibly dominant. I'm not at all convinced that Yzerman's 1988-89 was any better.

1. Jean Beliveau*-MTL 88
2. Gordie Howe*-DET 79
3. Maurice Richard*-MTL 71
4. Bert Olmstead*-MTL 70
5. Andy Bathgate*-NYR 66
Tod Sloan-TOR 66

That's just regular season though. Add in the playoffs, and it's pretty easily Beliveau:

1. Jean Beliveau*-MTL 19
2. Maurice Richard*-MTL 14
Bert Olmstead*-MTL 14
Bernie Geoffrion*-MTL 14
5. Gordie Howe*-DET 12

Those both regular seasons were all-time great. Honestly, I still probably pick Yzerman's if for nothing else then only for the nice fact that he had the highest point-total ever not named Mario or Wayne. There are legit reasons for both seasons. Not that mine was one. :laugh:

After that one regular season it is obvious that Jean had better years. I am not sure if the gap can be narrowed by giving Yzerman more benefit due era and team. But I feel quite confident that Stevie wouldn't catch Jean no matter how much help we give him.
 
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BraveCanadian

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Jun 30, 2010
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I already went on record that Yzerman has pretty much no hope of beating out Beliveau on a career basis but I'll be the first to say that his 155 point season was one for the ages.

His team was a .500 team in a weak division when he did that.

He was incredible.


Also I think it is important to keep in mind that with the higher scoring comes a benefit: more granularity in the separations because there are more events.

A gap by percentages in the O6 is not necessarily the same as a corresponding gap in a higher scoring era with more events counted.
 

Hardyvan123

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Jul 4, 2010
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Now we have posters imagining that Beliveau's line in 1956 played close to 30 minutes per game:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/teams/MTL/1956.html

Toe Blake pioneered rolling four lines using swing players - forward / defenseman types or multi position forwards to expand the limited 16 later 17 skater game roster.

Prime example would be the 1959-60 season:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/teams/MTL/1960.html

Note the goal totals for the four centers Jean Beliveau - 34, Henri Richard - 30, Phil Goyette - 20, Ralph Backstrom -13.

No imaginary double shifting for Jean Beliveau ever during Toe Blake's tenure as coach. Fact of the matter is the opposite happened. Jean Beliveau had reduced ice time compared to the other star/superstar forwards of his era. Same is true for Henri Richard. Net result the star Canadiens were fresher for the playoffs.

Seriously you are going to use hockey reference to cite that the Habs had those 4 guys maybe playing kinda equal minutes or something correlating to their goal scoring?

Hockey reference uses the position as a base and there is no correlation between any actual ice time and position from that era.

What we do have is GP and using hockey reference this is how it breaks down

Center

Jean 60
Henri 70
Phil 65
Ralph 64
Cec 4 for a total of 263/70 games is 3.75 centers /game

For RW it's 223 games for the 4 RW listed for 3.19 RW/ game

For LW it's 262 games for 5 LW listed for 3.74 LW/Game

This is just a guess here but with the limited information we have it's safe to say that some centers were playing on the wing in some games and a guy like Jean was probably playing top forward minutes on that team.

C1958, you have provided zero proof that the Habs were rolling 4 lines here or that Jean's ice time would have been any less than Steve's during his prime.
 

Hardyvan123

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I already went on record that Yzerman has pretty much no hope of beating out Beliveau on a career basis but I'll be the first to say that his 155 point season was one for the ages.

His team was a .500 team in a weak division when he did that.

He was incredible.


Also I think it is important to keep in mind that with the higher scoring comes a benefit: more granularity in the separations because there are more events.

A gap by percentages in the O6 is not necessarily the same as a corresponding gap in a higher scoring era with more events counted.

In fact with 21 teams each having 60 MPG and top lines ect...there is indeed more chance of variance and competition for top scoring leaders from year to year.

One thing that really stands out in the top 5 for regular season and playoffs in Jean's excellent 55-56 year is the 3 Habs out of 5 regular season scorers and 4 of 5 in the playoffs.

That's certainly not the type of team Steve was playing on.

I think it's harder to separate their team situations than some are letting on here.
 

Canadiens1958

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1959-60 Season

Note to HV and your misuse of any and all existing data from the O6 era.

First suggest that you use the playoffs as well, where you will clearly see that the centers played 8,8,8,7 games respectfully. Ralph Backstrom missing a game.

Also note that Don Marshall, listed as a LW in 1959-60 had NHL experience as a center and at the other forward positions. HR credits him as playing center for the 1956-57,1957-58, 1958-59 seasons.

Also Marcel Bonin played both wings, while Bob Turner played forward on the PK with Don Marshall. Little Toe Blake gambit to get three defensemen on the ice in PK situations.
 
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TheDevilMadeMe

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Brooklyn
Also I think it is important to keep in mind that with the higher scoring comes a benefit: more granularity in the separations because there are more events.

A gap by percentages in the O6 is not necessarily the same as a corresponding gap in a higher scoring era with more events counted.

You're absolutely right here, but what's a better way to do it? How else do you compare the offensive dominance from a lower scoring league to a higher scoring one?

In this particular case, when Beliveau had 88 points to win the Art Rose, he had 17 more points than the nearest player not named Gordie Howe, which is a pretty big margin even in absolute terms, let alone percentages.
 

Plural

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Mar 10, 2011
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You're absolutely right here, but what's a better way to do it? How else do you compare the offensive dominance from a lower scoring league to a higher scoring one?

In this particular case, when Beliveau had 88 points to win the Art Rose, he had 17 more points than the nearest player not named Gordie Howe, which is a pretty big margin even in absolute terms, let alone percentages.

Agreed, 17 points gap even without context is huge. Given the era Jean did it it is probably one of the biggest margins Art Ross has ever been won. (Excluding Gretzky/Mario) Assuming that we disregard Howe of course.

I just realized how silly that last part sounds. We are effectively erasing three players just cause they were so damn good. :laugh: Do they do this in any other sport?
 
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Hardyvan123

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Jul 4, 2010
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Note to HV and your misuse of any and all existing data from the O6 era.

First suggest that you use the playoffs as well, where you will clearly see that the centers played 8,8,8,7 games respectfully. Ralph Backstrom missing a game.

Also note that Don Marshall, listed as a LW in 1959-60 had NHL experience as a center and at the other forward positions. HR credits him as playing center for the 1956-57,1957-58, 1958-59 seasons.

Also Marcel Bonin played both wings, while Bob Turner played forward on the PK with Don Marshall. Little Toe Blake gambit to get three defensemen on the ice in PK situations.

How was my interpretation of the positions and hockey reference cite misused?

We were talking the regular season here and not the playoffs and the bottom line is that we don't have any accurate information on playing time for the 06 period.

We ahve alot more information about Stevie Y and his role on the Red Wings, we can see that his SOG totals started to drop after the 93 seasons from the regular 300 plus SOG to the 225ish range.

We also know that his TOI from age 33 in 1999 was still close to 22 MPG.

It's not hard to conclude that his drop in SOG wasn't because of less playing time but rather a shift in his role on the team, the stats support what we saw.

Unfortunately we don't ahve stats like that for Jeans time but to even suggest that Blake was rolling 4 lines, in any kind of equal manner, is not supported at all by the information we do have or the intuition that hockey coaches use their best player more than their lesser ones.

Just using your logic let's look at another of Jean's seasons here.

In 58-59 the Habs centers played in

64, 63,64,70 games, what happened in the games were 3 centers were playing? Marshall played in all 70 games and had a stat line of 70-10-22-32, man he must have been one heck of a lousy player if the Habs were really rolling 4 lines at that point, given all of the extra shifts he must have had when the 3 top centers were out.

Same thing in the playoffs, both Henri and Ralph and Marshall played in all 11 games.

Jean played in 3 and Ken Mosdell played in 3 (in an extremely small role since he was 36 at the time).

Were the Habs still rolling over 4 lines at the time with 3 centers for 5 games, and a largely ineffective Marshall on the 3rd line or were guys doubling shifting and playing a majority of the minutes here?

From all the available evidence we have it's pretty clear Jean was getting prime minutes and prime role and a very strong team for basically his entire career.

How much that matters when compared to Steve is up for everyone to decide but it's frankly quite embarrassing the lengths people are going to here to suggest otherwise.

I think one thing to consider ehre when comapring the 2 players is the impact of Yzerman in the NHL and on Detroit was much greater than Jean's on the Habs and NHL before their 22nd birthdays.

Jean had his first elite NHL season at the age of 23 when Steve was having his 6th NHL year and his 5th excellent to elite seasons up to that point.

Jean would go on to ahve 16 more good to excellent NHL seasons from that point on but Steve would have at least 12 excellent to elite NHL seasons after that as well.

I still have Jean ahead at this point but the case can be made that Yzerman is pretty close here.
 
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Wrath

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Jan 13, 2012
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Just curious Hardy, if you have Yzerman close to Beliveau, where do you place the likes of Messier and Sakic?
 

Hardyvan123

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Just curious Hardy, if you have Yzerman close to Beliveau, where do you place the likes of Messier and Sakic?

That's a tough one as my list isn't set in stone, its a bit in flux depending on how I feel about certain factors on a certain day, ie peak, line mates, playoffs and other factors but today right now I would have them

Jean
Steve
Joe
Mark

That being said, I can see a stronger case for Steve being closer to Jean than the other 2 but I can also see why some might have the last 3 guys in a different order as well.

As 4 should be really interesting in the all time centers list though.
 

Canadiens1958

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Nov 30, 2007
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1958-59 Season

HV it is rather sad that you continue to repeat the same mistakes over and over again especially after the proper methodology has been clearly outlined.

1958-59 season Phil Goyette is listed as a RW. Previously and afterwards during his career,Goyette is listed as a center. Does not mean that he did not revert back to center or simply forgot how to play center during the 1958-59 season and playoffs.Comparable to Don Marshall in 1959-60.

The data in HR has to be combined with the data in the HSP for the 1958-59 RS and PO. In the HSP you will find many instances of Canadiens goals recorded with the Pronovost/Goyette/Provost trio on the ice. Goyette was the only one of the three that played center.

As for your diss of Don Marshall, I'm sure you checked original six scoring records for centers. There are teams where the three or four centers combined to score less than 40 goals during the regular season. Fourth center scoring 10 while providing elite PK is very impressive.

The Canadiens during the time when Toe Blake coached would have a roster with a minimum of six players with the ability to play center. Necessary for match-ups, injury contingencies, handy for practices.

As for the Jean Beliveau pre age 23 argument you have conjured. Trust you are aware of his early career in the QSHL. No obligation to play in the NHL and take a major pay cut.

Strange that you overlook this part of the argument since it goes perfectly with your view that the O6 NHL was not integrated. Effectively you use the fact that Sven Tumba turned down the Bruins after a five game pro trial, ironically with the Quebec Aces, for the financial benefits of playing in Sweden to denigrate accomplishments by NHL players during the O6 era. Yet a few years earlier when Jean Beliveau did the same thing you then denigrate his pre NHL accomplishments.
 
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Hardyvan123

tweet@HardyintheWack
Jul 4, 2010
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HV it is rather sad that you continue to repeat the same mistakes over and over again especially after the proper methodology has been clearly outlined.

1958-59 season Phil Goyette is listed as a RW. Previously and afterwards during his career,Goyette is listed as a center. Does not mean that he did not revert back to center or simply forgot how to play center during the 1958-59 season and playoffs.Comparable to Don Marshall in 1959-60.

The data in HR has to be combined with the data in the HSP for the 1958-59 RS and PO. In the HSP you will find many instances of Canadiens goals recorded with the Pronovost/Goyette/Provost trio on the ice. Goyette was the only one of the three that played center.

The fact of the matter is that we don't have any reliable TOI data for the 06 era and the stats we do have would seem to indicate that Jean was getting at least 20 MPG of ice time.

As for your diss of Don Marshall, I'm sure you checked original six scoring records for centers. There are teams where the three or four centers combined to score less than 40 goals during the regular season. Fourth center scoring 10 while providing elite PK is very impressive.

I was being a bit sarcastic, of course he didn't play enough MPG, in offensive situations, with the really good players, to score anywhere near like Jean and Henri did.

Even assuming that he qualifies as a LW in the all time wingers list,
he isn't going to be sniffing around on any top 50 lists in the weaest position in hockey is he? My overall point is that there is no proof and the evidence actually leans the other way on the 4 lines rolling over, which seemed to imply somewhat equal ice time.

Like I said before it's a pretty safe bet that jean averages close to or even over 20 MPG for his career.



The Canadiens during the time when Toe Blake coached would have a roster with a minimum of six players with the ability to play center. Necessary for match-ups, injury contingencies, handy for practices.

As for the Jean Beliveau pre age 23 argument you have conjured. Trust you are aware of his early career in the QSHL. No obligation to play in the NHL and take a major pay cut.

Strange that you overlook this part of the argument since it goes perfectly with your view that the O6 NHL was not integrated. Effectively you use the fact that Sven Tumba turned down the Bruins after a five game pro trial, ironically with the Quebec Aces, for the financial benefits of playing in Sweden to denigrate accomplishments by NHL players during the O6 era. Yet a few years earlier when Jean Beliveau did the same thing you then denigrate his pre NHL accomplishments.

I'm one of the guys ehre that often looks to none NHL playing time when comparing dfferent aplayers with each other.

Yes Jean was the star of the QHL but he didn't light the Habs oin fire in his first season either, so it's questionable as to how much impact he might have ahd, had he started in the NHL earlier, with Steve there are no questions he was rock solid in his first 6 seasons.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/pla...val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&order_by=points

Age 18-23 10th in points despite playing two seasons of only 51 and 64 games and not the greatest of offensive line or team mates either.
 

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